CVD aliasing : how to get rid of it ?

[vhelp]

martyn1980 (martio)

stop looking for flaws. You'll make it worse for yourlsef later.
Try and settle w/ a comprise. You must!

marty,
I think I have some theories. So, take w/ a grain of ???
* one, your dvd player
* two, your TV
* three, the sample clip

Ok, one, the Farscape sample. Since I have one of the Farscape
DVDs, Nerve and The Hidden Memory, I was able to try an
encode of the same opening theme that kwag used in his sample. My
take on the quality issue is not kwag's (or anyone elses) encoded
sample, but rather, the scene itsef!! You see, that scene is
pretty generic. Something I call, when quality is not so good, even
though it looks good during DVD playback on TV. That opening theme
quality's color was pretty off the scale. So, just about ANY encoding
method would fail in quality - oh, mine included. kwag, that was a
bad example to use in your DVD rip using ksvcd. No, not sample encode,
but the actual clip from the DVD itself. Try and find another sample
to use, else you'll get more negative response. If anything, try and
find something that most everybody here has a master copy of on DVD.
...but, nothing boring.
Anyways, oh, where was I.. .. ..
I can't see what you see on larger size screens, cause I only have a
13" TV. But, I am dying to know what my clips look like from time to
time - those that I post here for example, at VHELP's Samples (see below)
I'm about ready to UPload an new clip for the weekend, but not just
yet. But, I would love to know what they look like on larger TVs like
27" or higher. I need to know, so I can make the necessary mods in my
template/encode process - at least till I get a 27" or higher.
So, the farscape probably looked like VHS cause of the colors issue
for that scene. But, if kwag had used the actual TV show somewhere in
any scene, it would probably looked better! kwag, I'm sorry you didn't
quite catch this tid-bit!! Oh, well. . . live and learn.

marty, i do have a 20" but it's a co-axle, not RCA! So, I can't even
try that! I don't think my nearest Radio-Shack would have anything
I could use though.

TWO:
DVD player - -
I was able to try one of my samples on a 32" flat-screen TV.
The dvd player used was a Sony, at Circute-City. And, let me tell you. . .
* I was VERY disapointed!! The quality of the clip, in every scene was
SO blocky, it depressed me greatly.
* my conlcusion was this. It wassn't my encoded clip, but rather it
was the Sony brand DVD player!! So,

ok, NOW, i'm using the right poster's name. . .
waldok, depending on your viewing medium, ie, TV vs. PC monitor,
your DVD player (if TV) may play a part of those CVD aliasing that
bothers you so much. My advise is this. I hope you can afford it, is
this. . . try and buy an Apex, ie, AD-1500 and play your sample CVD clip
in it and see if you notice any more of those aliasing. It may all boil
down to your DVD player.

three
I think I already answered this above.

waldok, better luck!

-vhelp
-----------------------------------
For Standard VCD samples, you can jump over to this FORUM's link
here: VHELP's Samples... - Last updated: 08.11.02

[kwag]

.

As for the samples the farscape one isn't that great quality anyway looks like VHS. the text of the credits are particular bad, dont know the film of the second clip, but the jaggies are obvious on my TV, nothing spectacular but they are there, especially on Hugh Jackman's collar and Meg Ryan's hair at the end of the clip, and theres loads more that i can spot if i view it on the PC.

I hate jaggies even more than blocks and im baffled how i can see them bad on a 28" Widescreen and even a little on a 21" 4:3 TV, when HD people claim to not notice them, bear in mind i am incredible fussy though. and sit and watch Digital TV, looking for faults.

You must take into consideration your TV. Have you actually ever used a pattern generator to adjust and calibrate your TV? And I mean feeding cross hatch patterns, circles, center cross etc, and properly verified the TV's aspect? Maybe you can't see jaggs at 720x480, because of the extended resolution, but when you drop it by half to 352, then it's half the resolution, and it may be visible if you're TV is slightly misaligned. I have a 32" HDTV, and I can't see jagged lines on either of those two samples. But on our 60" rear screen projection, I do notice a very small amount of jaggs on 352x480. So that's something I have to check. Just another very important detail that many people forget to take into account.

-kwag

[kwag]

Ok, one, the Farscape sample. Since I have one of the Farscape
DVDs, Nerve and The Hidden Memory, I was able to try an
encode of the same opening theme that kwag used in his sample. My
take on the quality issue is not kwag's (or anyone elses) encoded
sample, but rather, the scene itsef!! You see, that scene is
pretty generic. -vhelp

And you're 100% right. That is a composite mix of effects, just like the DVD extras, and they're not as good quality as the actual movie. And the "Kate & Leopold" sample, I had mentioned that the DVD mastering on that movie is a mess. It looks crappy even on my HDTV. But other DVD movies look excelent. So I'll do another sample. I have a movie, "The Boondock Saints", and it's supposed to be one of the best mastered MPEG DVD's done. Comments on that film here at vcdhelp ( http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=85432&highlight=boondock+saints ). So I'll find a 30 second scene of that movie, and encode it with the SKVCD template. I'll substitute the SAMPLE#2 for the new one. I'll post here when it's ready.

Thanks for picking that out!,
-kwag

[bbb]

OMG!

I just realized that we must stop the spread of (unnecesarily long GOP, DVD incompatible, insufficient bitrate, jaggy resolution) nonstandards!

I now realized the full extent on why Adam was angry.

I just followed that link to isonews. And I just realized what is taking place ... conversion. Kwagologists are trying to pop up everywhere ... I saw one in the newsgroup just the other day preaching kwagology and they spread the gospel in almost every other VCDHelp forum posting. It's like cancer cells!

Now, I don't download movies but I have friends who do. Anyhow, that posting in ISONews was a kwagologist trying to push the nonstandard onto video pirates! Yikes!

If this happens, my friends will soon be downloading video that won't be standard and could pose serious compatibility issues with players. Moreover, SVCDs's higher resolution is preferred for pirated movies (which my friends bring over to show off). The reason is because if any reencoding is necessary (such as with Centropy's Epis 2 PAL to NTSC) the CVD resolution will yield inadequate resolution for a good re-encoding to NTSC. SVCD adoption by pirates was well regarded after their overly long stay with encoding VCDs. I don't like to see anything lose progress in quality.

Truly, this is really scary news! Standard followers we must combat these religious fanatics ... for the sake of the future!

[kwag]

Well, here is the new SKVCD sample:

http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/skvcd.mpg

It's SAMPLE#2, if you access it at kvcd.net's download page.

Feedback welcome!
Look carefully at the playing time vs. file size.

-kwag

[kwag]

OMG!

I just realized that we must stop the spread of (unnecesarily long GOP, DVD incompatible, insufficient bitrate, jaggy resolution) nonstandards!

I now realized the full extent on why Adam was angry.

I just followed that link to isonews. And I just realized what is taking place ... conversion. Kwagologists are trying to pop up everywhere ... I saw one in the newsgroup just the other day preaching kwagology and they spread the gospel in almost every other VCDHelp forum posting. It's like cancer cells!

Now, I don't download movies but I have friends who do. Anyhow, that posting in ISONews was a kwagologist trying to push the nonstandard onto video pirates! Yikes!

If this happens, my friends will soon be downloading video that won't be standard and could pose serious compatibility issues with players. Moreover, SVCDs's higher resolution is preferred for pirated movies (which my friends bring over to show off). The reason is because if any reencoding is necessary (such as with Centropy's Epis 2 PAL to NTSC) the CVD resolution will yield inadequate resolution for a good re-encoding to NTSC. SVCD adoption by pirates was well regarded after their overly long stay with encoding VCDs. I don't like to see anything lose progress in quality.

Truly, this is really scary news! Standard followers we must combat these religious fanatics ... for the sake of the future!

It's strange that you bring this up, as you previously stated:
"I was able to achieve the same nice quality and small (and also predictable) file size from a DVD movie"

Do you have short memory span ?

-kwag

[Martyn1980]

Vhelp i realise what you say about the clip and im not keen on the quality of TV shows anyway, especially US ones, UK made programmes are sharper and have more realistic colour, US ones seem too colourful kind artificial, and a fullscreen clip from a TV show isnt the greatest way to show off any way of encoding, so i dont know why Kwag picked it, and its not just the jaggies i dont like, its the overall picture, its nearer to High bitrate VCD rather than DVD and NTSC CVD looks even worse.

SVCD is my compromise, i like to use 720 or 704, but if its a long film i will use 480, going under that and i start to see the loss of detail, and the whole thing is im using a widescreen TV and these clip are letterboxed rather than anamorphic, and the excess stretching to resize the resolution, and the stretching by the TV makes things worse, though if i dont stretch it and just have borders at the side then its still obvious, and a 28" Widescreen is not a big TV.

Apex DVD players are mainly American in origin i think, havn't saw one over here in UK, but i have tested CVD in other DVD players including a Sony, a Wharfedale, and my own Toshiba which is at my brothers place, and the Toshiba has fantastic picture quality, i can see it on all them and this is all on different TV sets too, from a 21" a 32" Widescreen and a 28" 4:3 TV, i know im expecting too much, but i never though Apex players were that great for quality, more for compatibility like my Yukai.

Kwag no i have never used a Pattern generator to calibrate my TV, but i doubt the TV is misaligned, i dont know much on the subject but i will look into it, but considering the TV is 5 weeks old i would be annoyed if it was, and as i said i have tested on othe TV's too, are you saying they're all off, i doubt that, and as for rear projection TV's everything looks bad on them, they're for the size freaks, who want quantity over quality.

I get amazing results clarity colour and block wise with my current setting i use on 480/704/720x576 and no other template or samples have come close, once i get a way to upload i might post some samples, but they would probably be PC Viewing only, as i doubt some DVD player will play 6000kbps Max at 720x576 Pal especially the NTSC ones, but it would let you know the quality i strive for.

[SatStorm]

Hi, back from hollydays now, I am getting ready to leave again tommorow (lucky me...)

There were always X formats, sometimes with excellent results and high compatibility. Going -X- makes your encoding look good in your equipment.
Then, one day, your standalone broke down and you buy a new one: Suprise, your encodings look like hell in the new standalone. Or they look excellent, better than before!
You play with your luck with the -X- formats. Also, it is not only the compatibility, it is and how this -X- looks.

The Gop Structure is an important thing for compatibility. Follow it if you want to achive old material or you want to encode to a final format. For example: VHS to CVD/SVCD... It is the higher you can get

About CVD aliasing: I never saw it in my encodings and on the standalones I tested: Cyberhome, Encore, Pioneer, Amoinosonic, Prinotek, Comet, Blue Sky..... All Pal Tests of course (I never used NTSC). But if the users report it, then it is there. Now, or I am extreme lucky and all those standalones handle CVD perfect, or I am blind and I have to fix my glasses (yes, I wear glasses...).
I hope it is the first one.
Meanwhile, if you don't like the quality of CVD, don't use it. Use whatever you like. CVD is another standard alternative. We have 3 for CD based media: VCD, SVCD and CVD. Better than before, when we had only VCD, isn't it?
It is simply like that.

[bbb]

Satstorm, you are one of the biggest Kwagologist. I've been noticing that for quite some time.

You spread lies ... saying Kwag's templates are fine ... totally DVD compatible ... the best choice for all (newbies and people wanting compatibility) ... it's your choice--use kwag's template or your video will look bad ... but this is very deceptive and you are not giving newbies a choice or the true facts.

People like Sefy and Adam and the long time regulars who are experienced and know the purpose of standards (for compatibility), resolutions (for compatibility), bitrates (for fitting video to a certain size), IVTC, frameserving, filters, proper use of Tmpgenc and CCE DO have a choice not to use your incompatible templates. On the otherhand, newbies (who don't know any better) are not knowlegeable to know the difference. They should learn standards first and then decide if they want to risk going nonstandard afterwards.

Yes, Kwag and his newbie following is quite a funny sight to see but I feel sorry for them once they realize that they have been duped into a nonstandard.

Kwag and Satstorm, I realize I won't convince you with reason ... you are stubbornly power lustful. But know this ... I'll be watching you when you try to force your nonstandard onto the innocent!

[Martyn1980]

Thats a bit harsh bbb, i wouldn't consider Satstorm a Kwagologist

Satstorm seems very happy with his way of encoding and doesn't refer to set made templates done by other people like some on Kwags followers do, well not in posts ive read.

Satstorm my DVD player came free with this computer, and my mother in law has one too as she also got the same system, and im buying it off her soon for the bedroom, anyways there are a few players out there that will play high bitrate XVCD's, some better, some worse than my present one, and most of them extremely cheap, so its not a big problem.

As for the aliasing its only really noticeable if i sit in front of the TV and look for them, i hate it if i see them, but unless i look for them i dont, what i do always notice is the colour looks wrong, kinda unnatural.

I understand most of your CVD stuff is probably captures and CVD is best for that, but 70% of my stuff is DVD, and 30% DIVX, and looks better at Higher resolutions.

By the way Satstorm are you a Kwagologist :P

[Martyn1980]

Thats a bit harsh bbb, i wouldn't consider Satstorm a Kwagologist

Satstorm seems very happy with his way of encoding and doesn't refer to set made templates done by other people like some on Kwags followers do, well not in posts ive read.

Satstorm my DVD player came free with this computer, and my mother in law has one too as she also got the same system, and im buying it off her soon for the bedroom, anyways there are a few players out there that will play high bitrate XVCD's, some better, some worse than my present one, and most of them extremely cheap, so its not a big problem.

As for the aliasing its only really noticeable if i sit in front of the TV and look for them, i hate it if i see them, but unless i look for them i dont, what i do always notice is the colour looks wrong, kinda unnatural.

I understand most of your CVD stuff is probably captures and CVD is best for that, but 70% of my stuff is DVD, and 30% DIVX, and looks better at Higher resolutions.

By the way Satstorm are you a Kwagologist :P

[baker]

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE FIXED THIS PROBLEM YET AS I CAN'T VIEW THE foroum BUT 352X576 PROVIEDS A "BLOCKY LOOK" IF YOU DON'T HAVE AN OVERLAY ACTIVE.

Baker

[Martyn1980]

Sorry guys Double post

[SatStorm]

bbb, you are simply a boy who want to **** up this forum for fun and nothing more....
I also know who you are... You play a dirty double game all the time. If I was the administrator, I would ban you for good and once for all from this forum. I would also informed ALL the other forums of the VCD/SVCD scene for who you are, to ban you also there.
Are you a psycho or something?
Grow up and get a life. And stop jeluse so much.

About me: I have been here, on VCDHelp, for more than 3 years and If you search the archives, I never asked a thing the last 2 years. I only help people. Just imagine that I was here before Adam or Sefy for example.

What is that "Kwagologist" stupid word you use just to describe your other forum personality?
I was never a fan of mpeg 1, and this is easy noticable. Interlace is importan for me, so how I could be a KVCD fan? In his own forum said that I always used mpeg 2 and always 352 X 576 or 352 X 288 resolution.

Also I never said or wrote "... lies ... saying Kwag's templates are fine ... totally DVD compatible ... the best choice for all (newbies and people wanting compatibility) ... it's your choice--use kwag's template or your video will look bad ... but this is very deceptive and you are not giving newbies a choice or the true facts. "
Those are YOUR words, with another nicknames in this same forum. You try so hard to **** up others, because noone follows your "ideas" over the last 3 years you always posted here with many nicknames...
Most of the times with stupid nicknames, show with a simply look who you are...

If my articles was faulse or lies, then they would never had that impact they have now EVERYWHERE in the encoding scene. The term "CVD" is now everywhere in the net and anyone can test it himself. Also, CVD is the bigest enemy or any XVCD and XSVCD format like Kwag's KVCD or whatever he called his templates. The only positive thing I said for KWAG, is that he has some ideas, so maybe he could end up somewhere good.

Meanwhile, I simply enjoying reading everywhere in the NET for the CVD and see WITHOUT EVER ASKING IT a link in my article on VCDhelp. My articles are so reallable and acceptable that the concerned "EXPERT talking" without even wanted that.
My articles, are good ones, noone can doubt them. They have it all and I prepered them for years before publishing them. I very proud when I read to other forums, which I am not an active member, links and quotes from MY posts. Most of the times are NOT negative....

I suggest you "BBB" (don't mention your other nicknames...) to stop ******* around and spoil bullshit. Do something usefull. Shut up for example!