CVD:What is it,how to test it & what to expect!

[SatStorm]

Drag & Drop?
There are no such things in our hobby....
Go DVD2SVCD if you want some kind of automation....

CVD make the difference for video not audio. You gonna have that king of problems all the time with the audio.
The Higher (not highest possible) compatibillity of CVD, is only for the Video part of the mpeg 2 file

[JSquare]

SatStorm

As you mentioned, in our hobby there is not such a thing as "Drag & Drop" especially with a non-standard format like CVD, but we all try to make a difference by experimenting with different methods of encoding to achieve the best results. I personally don't use DVD2SVCD, TMPGEnc seems to be easier for tweaking and experimenting around, that's why I just found (the hard way) these methods to work:
- If you're encoding for DVD authoring, modify the DVD template in TMPGEnc for CVD and make sure that Stream Type = MPEG-2 Program (VBR).
- If you're encoding for SVCD authoring, modify the SVCD template in TMPGEnc for CVD and make sure that Stream Type = MPEG-2 Super VideoCD (VBR).

Finally I got DVD Movie Factory (thanks to erzug for the recommendation) to work with the CVD encoded in the DVD modified template.

Later!

[erzug]

I used Baker's DVD2SVCD guide to convert to CVD (must have DVD2SVCD version 1.0.9 build 3). The only thing I had to change was the GOP settings in advanced section for CCE (3/4 instead of the default 3/5). When left at 3/5, Movie Factory complained about the GOP's per frame not being DVD compliant. Not much else to explain. I set DVD2SVCD CD size to some very high setting to avoid the cutting of the resultant Mpeg2 file. Last week, I experimented with Monster's Ball (1 hr 51 min), and the output .mpg file was 1.6mb.

[jonhildrum]

I tried - in a simple manner. I used ATI AIW radeon to capture (MMC7.7) a TV show at 352X480 (one episode) then another at 720x480. (another episode). Both was burned using 48Khz audio.

Use Ulead movie factory to cut out commercial and burned a DVD+RW containing both episodes. Watch them on the monitor - the 720X480 looked a bit better -sharper -crisper.
Watched them using a DVD player on my 27" TV. I could not tell the difference between the two on the TV.
Neither were great quality on the TV but they were both good enough for my purpose.

Note: When using moviefactory it actually created a 720X480 from the CVD capture (larger burned file size than captured) when burned but the file size was quite a bit smaller than the one captured at 720x480.

[energy80s]

The reason it looks bad is that you have re-sampled the 352 encode up to 720. For CVD, your final MPEG encode should be 352x576(480) if you are getting a 720 pic size then you are not making CVD's.

[avl1]

Just to correct the initial post somewhat (sorry I was lazy enough not to read all the pages after that, maybe somebody already did it) 8) So, there are no "dots" in the analog signal. The analog signal is a continuous brightness vs time transmitted as voltage vs time signal with larger voltage roughly corresponding to larger brightness. There is also some additional information such as syncropulses, etc., which are inserted between the continuous portions of the signal corresponding to "scan lines" and groups of scan lines, i.e. fields and frames.

Now, what can be seen as "dots" on the TV screen is just abrupt changes between bright and dark. The size of these "dots", i.e. resolution is defined by how fast the amplitude of the analog signal can change, i.e. by the bandwidth of the TV equipment, the broadcast channel, etc. Proper cabling (well shielded, correct impedance) is not usually the factor limiting the bandwidth. It is limited by the electronic circuits which are used to pass, amplify and convert the signal. Of course an inherent restriction is the bandwidth specified by a particular standard, such as S-Video or composite video. In the latter case the same bandwidth is used to pass both color and brightness signals, so the bandwidth available for each one is smaller compared to S-Video. Another factor is noise which is always present in all, even digital, circuits. In the case of low-signal (such as broadcast TV and VCR) analog circuits the signal to noise ratio is usually quite small. Random noise "smears" the abrupt changes in the signal thus reducing the resolution. Or it can be said that noise takes some of the bandwidth which otherwise would be available to the useful signal. Noise in capture card analog-digital converter is probably the main factor defining the capture resolution (assuming an ideal source).

As for the 352 vs higher horizontal resolution analog capture, there IS a difference, at least this is my subjective opinion. Besides, denoising of the captured material by using filters will reduce the resolution, so it is better to start at higher resolutions. As a final format 352x480(576) is very convenient and this is what I personally use

[oldfart13]

Well, I've been meaning to try my hand at CVDs so I DLed the sample and burned it to a CDRW and played it back on my Apex-1500W and it looked great. I next tried to produce my own by first capturing a TV show from my satellite dish as a 5MB/s DVD stream, editing the commercials out of it in Video Studio 6SE and then saving it as a custom file using the following:

352*480
224 KB/s stereo
48 kHz audio
2520 max variable bit rate

I burned the resulting file in Nero with the compliancy off. The resulting video played perfectly in the Apex 1500 BUT the picture was blocky and full of motion artifacts and was quite a bit inferior to cap/conversions I have done to 2.6 MB/s SVCD specs. I just wish VS6 had filters and advanced settings like in TMPGEnc so I could play with the final look of the video. I did like the fact that at this maximum CVD spec, I could easily get the necessary size of the file down to the point where I can put 45 minutes onto a CDR with no problems. I have been unable to do this using the captured files I have now. My next project will be to save the edited video file back into it's 5 MB/s DVD spec and load it into TMPGEnc and use that to convert to CVD. Wish me luck...

[tim]

Could someone please tell me what programs to use and how to use them to make a CVD that plays on a pal dvd player

[adam]

Could someone please tell me what programs to use and how to use them to make a CVD that plays on a pal dvd player

Load your movie in TMPGenc and load the pal svcd template. Now load the unlock template. Now change the resolution to 352x576 instead of 480x576. Hit encode and author your CVD in any SVCD authoring program and ignore any compatibility warnings that occur.

SVCD and CVD are identical except for the resolution. If you know how to author SVCD than you can do the same process for CVD's.

[oldfart13]

I thought CVD also used 48 kHz audio? Anyway, I used the modified template in TMPGEnc as follows:

Mpeg-2
352*480
2 pass VBR 600min/2200avg/2500max
48kHz audio 224 kbit
GOP was set to 1, 4, 2 ,1 as per instructions
29.97 fps

Resulting file was 814 Meg from the original DVD spec that was 1.8 Gig. That file size is way too big. I had previously done the same clip in Video Studio 6SE and it was 414 Meg! I'm trying to figure out what I did wrong. Also, TMPGEnc was slow...even with no filters it took 5.5 hours to do the conversion while VS6 although using only single pass and no filters took 40 minutes! I've gone back through the template info but I can't figure out what I did wrong.

[energy80s]

Try it again with CBR. It won't take as long to encode, quality will be better, but you'll only get 40 mins per 700mb disc. Once you've mastered that, then try for VBR/CQ encoding. Oh and set the maximum GOP to 18 as you are in NTSC land.

[oldfart13]

The file size was smaller than last conversion but the video was compressed like it was a widescreen feature. It's still too blocky so I must raise the bitrate I think. I will try with CBR this time 2520 and see what happens. Good thing I have lots of CDRWs to experiment with...

[oldfart13]

Nope! No good! At 2350 it's still VERY blocky. I had the setting set as you instructed but the macroblocks are there from the first frame. Since no one is letting anyone else onto their "secret" filtering, it's getting to be a complete waste of time for me. At 2.6 Megs directly captured with the ADS Instant DVD there are no macroblocks! Using the much higher DVD spec of 5 MB/s CBR and downsampling it to CVD specs, there is nothing BUT macroblocks! Can anyone give me a full checklist in one post as to all the settings I should be using with TMPGEnc Pro? I'm going to try one more encode with the default setting set to soften block noise and quantize matrix set to default. I had set it to CGI/animation since the clip is entirely CGI. This resulted in the heavy macroblock and jerky encode I just did. Other things on my checklist:

Mpeg-2 video
352*480
4:3 display
29.97 fps
2520 CBR
VBV buffer size: automatic
Main Profile and Main Level
NTSC
Interlace
YUV 4:2:0
DC component precision: 8 bits
Motion Search: Normal

Video Source Type: Interlace
Field Order: Bottom Field First
Source Aspec Ratio: 4:3
Video Arrange Method: Full Screen

GOP structure: 1:4:2:0
Max number of frames in GOP: 18
Detect Scene Change

Quantize matrix: default
Soften Block Noise: setting 35 for both

Audio:
Mpeg-1 Audio Layer II
48kHz stereo 224 bits
De-emphasis flag: none

System:
Stream Type: Mpeg-2 Program (VBR)

I'll wait for the next post from someone who can tell me what I'm doing wrong and how to correct it before doing my next encode...

[SatStorm]

Your settings are OK...
I never had a problem with those settings.
It seems that the source you have is difficult
So, you need bitrate (so you go -X-) or go the way you know that you have good results...
Sometimes, the alternatives ain't good! And CVD is just an alternative!
Have fun

[Stile]

I am using Ulead MovieFactory and when I'm adding created CVD I have to choose SVCD option in the start and everything is OK. I burn it on CD.
But one thing bothers me. You said that CVD is DVD compliant and I can just drag n' drop CVD file in my DVD authoring program and burn it. So I choose DVD option in the start of MovieFactory and I tried to add CVD file but it was impossible. Do you have any idea? Or should I add CVD like SVCD and burn it to DVD?

[avl1]

Oldfart13, you're doing an analog capture from a satellite receiver to an AVI file, right? If so you need to denoise the AVI source before feeding it to TMPGEnc. From my experience the satellite signal still has too much fine noise to be encoded at these low (compared to DVD) bitrates. Also, KVCD templates modified for CVD format are really nice to keep the file size down for a decent quality encodes.

[SatStorm]

@Stile: Where I mention ".........that CVD is DVD compliant and I can just drag n' drop CVD file in my DVD authoring program and burn it"?
Post me where to delete it

No, you can't do this.

The file is an mpeg 2. If you muxx it as SVCD you have CVD when you muxx it as DVD you have 1/2 D1 DVD

A CVD mpeg 2 file needs Demux and remux as DVD mpeg 2 file to be accepted by the DVD authoring programs.
This is a fast proccess, and don't includes any re-encoding. It is just remuxing.

Once again, if you are newbie, don't waste your time with CVD. Go first and learn for VCD, then SVCD and then (and if you still want something else) go CVD.

[Stile]

SatStorm... I read somewhere that CVD file can be drag n' dropped in DVD authoring program but not from you. I think I read this in some answer. I am not the newbie. I created lot of VCD's and SVCD's and now I'm trying with CVD. I created some CVD's and compared them to SVCD's but quality and artifacts are the same. I coded CVD at 2520 kbits/s CBR and 2520/2520/2520 (min/average/max) 2-pass VBR and the quality is the same on fast moving objects. I get an artifacts the same size and numbers as I get them from SVCD. I don't see any improvement
Am I doing something wrong?

[SatStorm]

No, you simply need bitrate!
You have a very difficult source...
CVD/SVCD and there bitrates ain't for you! Try XSVCD like 352 X 576 @ 3500kb/s average for example and you might have better results. Many DVB trasmissions are that way...
Going X is the only way for cases like yours....

The CVD/SVCD bitrates, are not the best option for any source! They can produce good results if you use easy and clean source like DVD, DVB, good recieption analogue Terrestrial transmissions or very good quality VHS/SVHS tapes.
For very shaking movies and typical VHS source, the noise we see during the playback is info which need encoding for the encoder. Encoders are dum, the don't know what is picture and what is noise....
So, you don't do nothing wrong. It happens and CVD ain't for your needs!

[erzug]

DVD Movie Factory will not accept my CVD as an SVCD. It says it is not compliant (obviously due to the 48K audio and 352H resolution). Is there a way to override the compliancy check with this software? Even if I substitute 44100 audio, the horizontal resolution will still be out of compliance. Any suggestions?

[vhelp]

erzug,

even though I don't have "dvd movie factory", I think that
you incorrectly MUXed your video/audio. And, although I'm
not that experienced in this whole process, I think you
need to do it this way (corrections ok here) :
* tmpg to de-mulitiplex project into separate video/audio
files (if anyone knows a better way via bbMPEG, great)
* open bbMPEG, ie, avi2mpg2.exe and [start encoding]/
settings/inputAndoutFiles/ and add your video's *.m2v and
audio's *.mp2
* click programsStreamsSettings tab
* then, (o) ~DVD and click [ok] button, then
* click Start
The above routine should be fairly quick, as their is no re-encoding
of the video.

I believe that once you MUX your project in this mannor, your
DVD author app should be able to process your CVD to DVD.
I could be wrong, being that I don't have a DVD writer, but
just give this a go and hope that it works.

Also, those of you's hat have trouble with your DVD player playing
the CVD's, if their is a way to re-audiolise your 48k down
to 44k via bbMPEG, that might be the answer to your DVD player being
able to NOW play CVD's. Else, you'll have to pop in the
CVD *.mpg file into TMPG and re-MUX it but with the Audio
tab's audio set to 44k. Then, use bbMPEG to re-MUX to DVD as in
above steps. In any case, you shouldn't have any more trouble with
CVD's playing in your DVD players any more, well, unless you
turned up your bitrate too high. ...hope not. 2520k should be all
you need for your video encodes. Anyways. . .

Good luck to all that try this as a last alternative.

-vhelp

[SatStorm]

It seems that I'll update the FAQ for this subject soon

It is very easy you see:
You have a mpeg 2 file with the resolution 352 X 576/480 @ max 2520kb/s, GOP =15(PAL)/18(NTSC) (or lower, it doesn't harm in combatibility) and audio XXXkb/s @ 48000Khz.

If you mux this file as SVCD, then you have CVD. The best choice to do this is BBmpeg and the later versions of TMPGenc (for the 95% of cases). Burn with nero (or whatever) as non standard SVCD and you are ok.

If you mux this file as DVD, then you have 1/2 D1 DVD. The best choice to do this is BBmpeg and the later versions of TMPGenc (for the 95% of cases). Now author your files with a flexible DVD authoring program and burn with whatever you want

You cann't rip from a CVD the mpeg 2 file and drag and drop it as it is on any author DVD program! You have to re-muxx it as DVD first!

[Stile]

DVD Movie Factory will not accept my CVD as an SVCD. It says it is not compliant (obviously due to the 48K audio and 352H resolution). Is there a way to override the compliancy check with this software? Even if I substitute 44100 audio, the horizontal resolution will still be out of compliance. Any suggestions?

I can only answer that I am using DVD Movie Factory too and CVD created with TMPGEnc I can use as SVCD in DVD MF with no problems. The horizontal resolution (352) is not the problem. For DVD MF vertical resolution (less than 576 for PAL and 480 for NTSC) is the problem for SVCD. It seems that you are doing something wrong but from your question I can't tell what is wrong.

[SatStorm]

Here is a logo to add to your CVDs, from a user of Doom9's Forum

http://www.westg8.com/cvd/

[oldfart13]

Avl1: No, the ADS Instant DVD captures in Mpeg-2 multiple bitrates and various sizes with Video Studio 6SE, though I have yet to have it give me good quality for SVCD encodes. Most have macro blocks and motion artifacts, especially if I attempt to capture in bitrates below the maximum 2.6 MB/s for standard SVCD. The other program for capturing, Capwiz does not yet allow you to alter bitrates from the 2.6 MB/s SVCD or 3, 4 or 5 MB/s DVD. Perhaps in the next update expected in the next 2 weeks. I'll just have to wait. As far as the video noise, it's acceptable even from highly compressed Mpeg-2 satellite transmissions.

Oh yes, SatStorm, perhaps in Europe, they have gone over to Digital Transmission for television for many countries but here in North America, that just isn't happening. The FCC has reported recently that the vast majority of overland transmission stations in the USA will not be complying with orders for them to convert to dual analogue and digital transmission. The cost is way too high and the possiblity for recouping their losses is minimal for small town stations. The station here where I live would probably just shut the station down rather than comply. Estimates of $1 Million USA for the upgrade would have to be absorbed by the station. Their market being local only is at best 100,000 viewers. There is no way to pay for the upgrade! Digital really isn't going anywhere here. High cost of receivers is a big letdown. I have to buy a new set soon. I will NOT be paying $3,000 for a HD ready set so I can watch the 2 channels from my satellite station and the news channels in Hi-Def. I'd rather buy a 32" non Hi-Def TV for $400 from Wal-Mart like the rest of the "poor" people...

[erzug]

My CVD was created using DVD2SVCD following Baker's guide. Since the audio is 48K and this is not, by the book, SVCD compliant, would this alone cause DVDMF to balk? I can easily re-encode the AC3 to 44100 using Besweet MP2 and remux with the the MPV/M2V file using either TMPGENC or BBMPEG.

[tim]

I encoded a CVD using 2 Pass VBR with 1200minimum/1900average/2520 maximum and in Satstorms guide he said that he fit the matrix on 1 cd put mine was well over.
Does any one know what bitrates to use to get a 90min CVD on one cd?

[SatStorm]

I wrote:

"Personally, for 4:3 movies, I prefer to use 2 Pass VBR with 1200minimum/1900 average/ 2520 maximum and I really like the picture. For most movies, those settings give me amazing results ("Matrix" for example)."

I didn't write that I feet the specific movie in one CD..

In 2 CDs yes, it is possible with amazing quality. The Matrix is a movie easy for encoding.

For 1 CD, go better KVCD, or a CVD with 1100average. Ain't perfect that way, but still acceptable (KVCD gonna look better in NTSC for sour!)

I 've made some tests,with 2 11 1 source and low bitrates (less 1100kb/s!) with amazing results, and I expain how in the same guide. That way, yes, it is possible to get a whole 85-90min in one CD. But the active screen is about VCD, is like PiP, so it is logical with this bitrate.
3 days ago, I encode the whole SHREK movie that way in one CD and it looks amazing. Only 2 scenes with slighty blocks in the whole movie, barely noticable!
CVD (and SVCD) ain't made for 1 CD per movie, but for 2 - 3. Users may force those formats lower, but the quality gonna suffer!

[oldfart13]

Latest caps using an ATI All In Wonder Radeon 7500 64 Meg DDR using MMC TV 7.5 worked great. Oddly enough though, I can't cap to 480*480 SVCD with this version (maybe in 7.7) but all I had to do was make a custom template out of the DVD spec and let it record away. I tried some recently captured 8mm camcorder footage and it looks just fine on my 27" TV. Going to have to check if the latest MMC will allow SVCD caps, though I'm loathe to alter anything since this works just as well for me. Thanks for all the help.

PS Satstorm, please don't use "ain't" so much. It's very difficult for this oldster to read that kind of slang without thinking of all those old Brit teachers I had in my youth who would hit you over the head with a ruler for using that word...

[SatStorm]

Sorry, I didn't realise that "ain't" is slang! I heard this word all the time to many TV channels, including MTV European..
I'll try to change that...