MS Pushes Standardized DVD Writing for Longhorn

[Kennyshin]

MS Pushes Standardized DVD Writing for Longhorn

http://www.betanews.com/article.php3?sid=1024073275

http://www.microsoft.com/hwdev/tech/stream/DVD/

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=859

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=1178

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=1251

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=1266

[BASSOFeeSH]

...and I just won a Pioneer 104 on Ebay.

While the CD-R/W support in WinXP is nice to have, I'd still rather use Nero or other utils for greater control & flexibility.

[Kennyshin]

...and I just won a Pioneer 104 on Ebay.

While the CD-R/W support in WinXP is nice to have, I'd still rather use Nero or other utils for greater control & flexibility.

What do you mean? Native support of Mt. Rainier gives you more control and flexibility and that is why it is also called "EasyWrite" since it makes CD writing as easy as writing to floppy diskettes.

[Digitizer]

Tough call for MS. If I were Bill Gates, I would be thoroughly confused.
Do you go with the "superior" DVD+RW or Forum-approved DVD-R/RW, which seams to be establishing at a faster pace. This double standard is a complete nonsense. Buyers are confused about the two as never before. I even had to explain the difference between the two formats to a clerk at Circuit City once.

Personally, I am not that concerned since I got the lovely DVR-A04 which produces disks that work with players made before DVD-R came out
Ha...ha...ha

[thxkid]

don't foget the most robust DVD-Ram, which has been around longer than both, my panasonic DMR E-20 produces DVD-Rs that are mirror images of the original and has played in every DVD player I have tried them on. Plus I don'y have to wait the extra 2 days while all of you out there with computer DVD recorders have to rip, join, and encode for recording, I put in a 90min. DVD or MPEG2, AVI, Camcorder, dishnet, Beta, 8mm, VHS or SVHS and 94min. later I have a perfect finished product. At $699 thats only a $200 more than most Computer DVD recorders and it has a TBC corrector built in, Tuner, Timer, ummm guess you can't do that with a Computer DVD recorder without buying other hardware then your up to or most likely over the price of the Panasonic Home recorder.

[Eug]

Yes, it seems the decision seems a bit odd on MS's part, especially since DVD-RAM already enjoys OS integration, and it has much more robust data handling than any form of Mt. Rainier rewritable DVD format.

[Kennyshin]

Tough call for MS. If I were Bill Gates, I would be thoroughly confused.
Do you go with the "superior" DVD+RW or Forum-approved DVD-R/RW, which seams to be establishing at a faster pace. This double standard is a complete nonsense. Buyers are confused about the two as never before. I even had to explain the difference between the two formats to a clerk at Circuit City once.

Personally, I am not that concerned since I got the lovely DVR-A04 which produces disks that work with players made before DVD-R came out
Ha...ha...ha

Yep. One standard is easier to choose from since it's one for the consumers. That's why Microsoft decided to choose DVD+RW.

What if Pioneer and Panasonic make DVD+RW drives and Philips and Ricoh make DVD-RW/-RAM drives?

[Kennyshin]

DVD+R 4.7GB for *VIDEO* in Tall Video Box *1-Pack*

$3.75 per disc, cheapest DVD recordable media by Verbatim.



http://www.provantage.com/scripts/go.dll/ibuyer/fp_70485

[Kennyshin]

Yes, it seems the decision seems a bit odd on MS's part, especially since DVD-RAM already enjoys OS integration, and it has much more robust data handling than any form of Mt. Rainier rewritable DVD format.

Eug, try to ask yourself. DVD-RAM has been on the market for five years or so and it has been integrated into Windows for long as well. So, what difference has it made to the average PC users? DVD-RAM has ever replaced FDD?

CD-MRW and DVD+MRW should be the natural successor to FDD, just 3,500 times bigger and hundreds of times faster.

[Eug]

Yes, it seems the decision seems a bit odd on MS's part, especially since DVD-RAM already enjoys OS integration, and it has much more robust data handling than any form of Mt. Rainier rewritable DVD format.

Eug, try to ask yourself. DVD-RAM has been on the market for five years or so and it has been integrated into Windows for long as well. So, what difference has it made to the average PC users? DVD-RAM has ever replaced FDD?

CD-MRW and DVD+MRW should be the natural successor to FDD, just 3,500 times bigger and hundreds of times faster.

DVD-RAM is only now affordable. The media and drives were prohibitively expensive, not just because they were new, but because the manufacturing processes were very expensive, and because not that many people "needed" several GBs of storage space on removable floppy-like discs.

That has changed, but at the same time, new technologies have appeared, which now include Mount Rainier.

I just think that the push behind Mount Rainier is a bit off the mark. The media is not built for such repeated read/write access, as the media degrades too quickly. A theoretical rewrite capability of 1000X for DVD+RW is certainly not very impressive for a floppy replacement, esp. when you compare it to the 100000X of DVD-RAM. Even with drive-supported defect management, the technology for both CD-MRW and DVD+MRW are both inherently inferior to DVD-RAM.

I agree that CD-MRW is better than CD-RW and DVD+MRW will be better than DVD+RW (when it becomes available), but neither will have the reliability of DVD-RAM.

[Kennyshin]

Eug,

DVD+MRW was never to replace DVD-RAM completely. DVD+RW specification was changed from 100,000 times to 1,000 times actually.

I don't like the fact it was that reduced either, but will the average PC users really care so much about 100,000 times of rewritability?

Anyway, if DVD-RAM has been already well integrated into Windows and Macintosh, what harm can the Microsoft support for DVD+MRW do to DVD-RAM?

Well, it all depends on the price and the speed. For DVD-RAM ever to become a reality for the average desktop users, it needs to be as affordable as CD. By that I mean $0.1 for write-once and $0.5 for rewritable disc.

One problem is that there are not yet that many newer generation of DVD Multi drives on the market. It was supposed to appear in 2001, not 2002 and that was what I heard from the very inside of LG Electronics ODD division. Something is wrong.

[Eug]

Eug,

DVD+MRW was never to replace DVD-RAM completely. DVD+RW specification was changed from 100,000 times to 1,000 times actually.

I don't like the fact it was that reduced either, but will the average PC users really care so much about 100,000 times of rewritability?

Anyway, if DVD-RAM has been already well integrated into Windows and Macintosh, what harm can the Microsoft support for DVD+MRW do to DVD-RAM?

Well, it all depends on the price and the speed. For DVD-RAM ever to become a reality for the average desktop users, it needs to be as affordable as CD. By that I mean $0.1 for write-once and $0.5 for rewritable disc.

One problem is that there are not yet that many newer generation of DVD Multi drives on the market. It was supposed to appear in 2001, not 2002 and that was what I heard from the very inside of LG Electronics ODD division. Something is wrong.

Well, it depends on how a +MRW disc is to be used. If as a temporary storage solution, periodically but not overly often rewritten, I think +MRW is acceptable (but not ideal).

OTOH, if to be used on a daily basis, with several writes per day, I think it's probably not a great idea to use +MRW discs. I'm afraid that if +MRW becomes mainstream, end users are only going to learn the hard way.

I agree that DVD-RAM would not be replaced by +MRW, but I think Microsoft is blowing the chance to push consumer-level penetration of an excellent format by pushing +MRW. While I agree that while +MRW's advantage is potentially lower cost equipment and media in the mid-term future, this benefit is offset by the fact that it is an inferior technology in many ways.

DVD-RAM media (at least in cartridges) cannot easily reach the 50 cent per disc level any time soon and this I think is it's only drawback. Indeed, part of the reason for this is because DVD-RAM media has a somewhat more complex design with more stringent specifications, to ensure reliability. However. I wouldn't be surprised if sub $1 DVD-RAM were possible with widespread acceptance.

The question is for data backup if one would prefer (removable) cartridge-based DVD-RAM at say $1 or bare DVD+MRW at $0.75 per disc. I would definitely take the former over the latter.

For write-once discs however, either DVD+R or DVD-R would fit the bill, at $0.20 per disc.

[Kennyshin]

24x CD-RW media together with 24x CD-MRW drives will be on the market soon. Philips is perfecting 32x CD-RW specification as well.

24x CD-MRW is already faster than 2x DVD-RAM.

Well, the best of each,

CD-MRW: 48x CD-R (2.5 to 3 minutes for 0.7GB), 24x CD-MRW (3 minutes for 0.5GB)

DVD+MRW: 2.4x DVD+R and DVD+MRW (25 minutes for 4.7GB), plus CD-RW

DVD Multi: 2x DVD-R, 1x DVD-RW, 2x DVD-RAM, plus CD-RW

The price and availability of media and drive will continue to be the deciding factor. For now, CD-RW/DVD-ROM combo drives and CD-MRW are leading the recordable market. They will be gradually replaced by either DVD+MRW or DVD Multi. My guess is that LG and Samsung are delaying to go into mass production of DVD Multi drives just to wait further to observe the market until the end of this year. Only two companies, Pioneer and Ricoh, produce more than 100,000 units of DVD recordable drives a month. Since CD-RW/DVD-ROM combo drives are selling very well, they don't feel the need to go into volume production until the time is ripe for mass consumption. Now it seems very likely that there will be CD-MRW/DVD-ROM combo drives and DVD-RW/DVD-RAM/CD-MRW combo drives as well. DVD-RAM will continue to have a small percentage of the total ODD market where now VIA and ALi are also becoming main players.

[Kennyshin]

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=1266

from my own posting,

I have read CDR-Info.com's CeBIT 2002 coverage once or twice more just a while ago from the beginning to the end and extracted the following information, also from browsing back the Models overview pages at DVDplusRW.org and elsewhere.

More DVDplusRW Drives

Mitsumi DVD+RW

http://cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=Cebit+2002+Show&index=39

DVD+RW 2.4x
CD-R 40x
CD-RW 20x
DVD-ROM/+RW 16x read
CD-ROM/-R/-RW 40x read

AOpen

DVD+R/+RW

BenQ

DVD+R/+RW

Plextor DVD+RW

http://cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=Cebit+2002+Show&index=10

Sanyo DVD+RW

http://cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=Cebit+2002+Show&index=9

23 DVD+RW drive manufacturers including LG, Samsung, Yamaha, Asustek, and LiteOn.

LG and Samsung have not yet released any offical announcement to manufacture DVD+RW drives but I am over 95 percent sure that they will by the end of year 2002. Asustek and LiteOn will move faster. Why not 100 percent? I am not entirely dismissing the very low probability of them supporting only DVD-RW/-RAM and then going into early production of Blu-ray recorders during 2003.

Not much more information have I seen so far.

Reading DVD+RW discs at 16x or about 22MB/s maximum (theoretical) speed sounds very good.

Current DVD+RW drives can read DVD+R and DVD+RW discs at up to 11MB/s and it will go up to 22MB/s later this year. I have read reviews of DVD-RAM since late 1990s and it's pathetically slow for most of those who have been used to 52x CD-ROM and 16x DVD-ROM.

[Kennyshin]

More Second Generation DVD+RW Drive Reviews - ZDNET.com

HP DVD-Writer DVD200i drive
Score: 7.5
May 29, 2002 by H. G. Bryant
Complete Review

Sony Electronics DRU120A DVD+RW / CD-RW
June 3, 2002 - by Robert Luhn
Score 6.2
Complete Review

Pioneer Electronics DVR-A04 DVD-RW EIDE
Score 6.9
May 29, 2002 by H. G. Bryant
Complete Review

Conclusion from HP DVD200i Review by H. G. Bryant

The most sensible choice
The DVD200i is an impressive performer and an excellent choice as a backup drive. Furthermore, DVD+R media may prove to be the most compatible DVD-recordable format. If you want or need a DVD burner today, a DVD+RW drive, such as the HP, is the sensible choice.

- by H.G. Bryant

[Kennyshin]

Many more reviews here in DV-Info.net.

[Greg12]

I use Windows as an operating system and nothing else.

I use third party everything else,

Nero for burning
Adobe and Pinnacle for video
AIM for chat


The only thing I use is I.E. because it is superior to Netscape in every way.

[Kennyshin]

I use Windows as an operating system and nothing else.

I use third party everything else,

Nero for burning
Adobe and Pinnacle for video
AIM for chat


The only thing I use is I.E. because it is superior to Netscape in every way.

Native DVD writing means that copying, deleting, and moving files can be done with Windows Explorer.

[vitualis]

The issue is that there is the question of acceptance.

The mindset of the general public is that recordable disc media (which perhaps the exception of DVD-RAM because it is in a cartridge) are not really used as temporary file storage (as per FDD or ZIP).

Also, there is the issue of compatibility. People put files onto a FDD or ZIP, etc., not so much to "back up" data but rather as a form of data transport from one computer to another. The ubiquity of FDD drives is why people still use the totally outdated floppy disc. Similarly, the ubiquity of CD-ROM drives (the cheapness of CD-R media) is why simply burning larger files onto CD-R is also common used. What use is a medium for data transport if I can't read it on most other computers? (e.g., PCs running OLDER OS's, non-MS OSes, or Macs and Unix machines).

If you take a simple survery or poll, it is obvious that all packet writing technologies are NOT popular -- even now that it is integrated into the OS. The reasons for this are the two above.

Thus, DVD+RW support directly in the OS is a good thing, but probably one of limited importance in the general public. I personally don't see this as replacing the humble FDD.

Technical "coolness" is completely different from consumer viability. Food for thought.

Regards.

[Kennyshin]

What use is a medium for data transport if I can't read it on most other computers? (e.g., PCs running OLDER OS's, non-MS OSes, or Macs and Unix machines).

I was not aware there were that many non-Windows PCs and there were that many floppy diskettes in use, either.

[Kennyshin]

Goodbye parallel, serial ports, farewell floppy

Intel positions PCs for H2 2002, 2003
By Mike Magee, 12/06/2002 09:37:52 BST

http://www.theinquirer.net/12060205.htm

Corporate Marketplace
In the second half of this year, Intel is suggesting, the ways for system integrators to sell into large enterprises is by emphasising 802.11x wireless, DVI, discrete serial ATA, Bluetooth, and discrete Gigabit with ASF 1.0 (Kenai 32). Bluetooth. Gee.

It wants to promote similar products in the first half of 2003 but that includes the "legacy" removal features mentioned above.

Intel is still pushing RDRAM during the first half of next year.

Consumer Marketplace
The messages for system integrators, OEMs and motherboard makers for the second half of the year are similar, except that it hopes PC makers will dispense with floppies, serial ports and PS/2 ports in the second half of this year.

There are some difference. It is promoting Firewire, HPNA 2.0, DVD Muklti-Rom and DTV, in addition to the other elements such as 802.11x and Bluetooth. Gee.

[Kennyshin]

DigiTimes COMPUTEX Special
June 6, 2002
http://www.digitimes.com/C2/C2_print.asp?datePublish=2002/06/05&pages=C2&seq=415

CD-RW

The Taiwan-based Photonics Industry Technology & Development Association predicts that Taiwan will take up a 31% global market share with 17.64 million CD-RW drives shipped this year, up from 21% last year.

Rewritable DVD

Rewritable DVD technology is dogged with compatibility problems and it remains hard to predict which standard will prevail. The camps of DVD-RAM and DVD-RW will join to promote a new format called DVD-Multi to contest the DVD-Dual standard sponsored by DVD+RW and DVD-RW proponents. Industry observers say eventually the choice of major software and media producers, and the reaction of consumers to prices of the individual disc formats, will determine which will prevail in the rewritable DVD industry. Already, Dell Computer, Hewlett-Packard (HP), Sony and Microsoft sponsor the DVD+RW format.

Currently Benq, AOpen and Ultima Electronics all have started producing DVD+RW drives, but it is still hard to calculate their products’ market demand due to the conflicting standards.


Source: Nikkei Market Access, compiled by DigiTimes, January 2002.

For more complete Computex Taipei 2002 Coverage:
http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=1651&start=70

[vitualis]

What use is a medium for data transport if I can't read it on most other computers? (e.g., PCs running OLDER OS's, non-MS OSes, or Macs and Unix machines).

I was not aware there were that many non-Windows PCs

There are enough... ... not to mention all the Windows PC that don't have a DVD+RW drive.

and there were that many floppy diskettes in use, either.

Why hasn't ZIP drives overtaken floppy yet? Again, it is lack of ubiquity. For example, if I have to prepare a Powerpoint presentation and load it up on a PC at the meeting room what would I put it on? It would definitely have to be either floppy or a CD-R.

Regards.

[Kennyshin]

What use is a medium for data transport if I can't read it on most other computers? (e.g., PCs running OLDER OS's, non-MS OSes, or Macs and Unix machines).

I was not aware there were that many non-Windows PCs

There are enough... ... not to mention all the Windows PC that don't have a DVD+RW drive.

and there were that many floppy diskettes in use, either.

Why hasn't ZIP drives overtaken floppy yet? Again, it is lack of ubiquity. For example, if I have to prepare a Powerpoint presentation and load it up on a PC at the meeting room what would I put it on? It would definitely have to be either floppy or a CD-R.

Regards.

Obvioubly, your definition of "enough" is quite different from mine. Anyway, I'm not much interested in non-Windows systems for now. I mean I'm talking about PC systems used in 2002.

DVD+R has been on the market for only three months and that is why it is not ubiquitous yet. ZIP has been on the market for a few years and it was never able to replace FDD.

Definitely have to either floppy or a CD-R? Definitely YOU will use either floppy or CD-R. Good for you but since 1997 or 1998, I have almost stopped using any FDD and I have stopped using CD-R several weeks ago. For carrying files under 2 or 4GB, USB 2.0 CF memory will be most adequate.

[vitualis]

Good for you. We need people like you to help push technology so that the price decreases for the rest of us.

Obviously you've missed the point entirely.

Of course it would be good for something to finally replace the totally outdated FDD. The isssue is will DVD+RW be able to do it? I find it unlikely. ZIP had a pretty good chance (certainly better than DVD+RW) but it still failed.

Regards.

[holistic]

Check this out ..... innovative !

http://www.computerhope.com/help/floppy.htm#025

'simply roll it up and stick it in ya back pocket !'


Wake me when the holographic cubes are perfected.



Zzzzzzzzzzz

][

[holistic]

For carrying files under 2 or 4GB, USB 2.0 CF memory will be most adequate.

On that I will agree.

[Eug]

For carrying files under 2 or 4GB, USB 2.0 CF memory will be most adequate.

On that I will agree.

You mean MB? not GB?

[holistic]

Hmmm he might have missed the M and hit G but with 512Mb RAM hitting the streets the magic GB is not far behind

[mpb]

ZIP didn't replace the FDD because computer motherboard BIOS technology languished behind, preventing it from becoming easy to set up as an "A" drive, and because Iomega fixed their retail prices horrifically.

Every time ZIP was positioned to really break out and become the hot item of the moment, people looked at the same $199.99 price tag everywhere and said "aw crap, can't get a break on this, I'll just wait." Then the $149.99 everywhere, same thing. By the time they were under $100, a couple hundred megs just didn't cut it anymore... we all had CDRW drives with 35 cent media. The window was there and they missed it. During this entire time, the installed base of motherboards, excepting a few brand new models, would not allow booting from a ZIP disc. That would have been a huge boost.

My ASUS motherboard allows any device to be configured as any drive, excepting that ATAPI-0 must be C:. Too bad the feature doesn't really matter anymore! My system has only hard disks, a DVD-rom reader (for speed), and a DVD-RW drive now, and with bootable CDs, it's easy to recover from any system problem to the point where a floppy drive is unnecessary.

I wish they'd make a nice A drive that reads smart media. Now there's a concept. Those little solid-state cards can hold 128 megs and fit right in your pocket, EASILY. A bit small, yes, but worth it for their size. If any media stood a chance, that'd have been it. Its time is passed as well. That new CDR that's 3.2cm in diameter might be the next big ticket, since it can be used in PDAs and cell phones, etc.

-Mike