Audio Mayhem II: I've had enough!

[homerpez]

Here's my story.

I recorded a movie using my ATI Radeon. My normal proceedure is to Run it thru DVD2AVI, generating a video project file to use, and an .mp2 file (with an exact delay attached to it, displayed in the filename).

Next I'll convert the .mp2 to WAV format using the "DiskOut" plugin on Winamp. Making better conversion in TMPGEnc. The audio delay usually stays the same. And, it usually works fine this way, just apply the "Audio Offset" in TMPGEnc, and I'm ready to go.

But on this movie, upon completion, I notice there is a delay, MUCH BIGGER than the -66ms it said originally. It's more like 1 or 2 seconds!... or so I think.

Since I'm not ready to re-encode, I just demux and remux with bbMPEG (which I was going to do anyway), but I apply a delay to the audio. When I do this, the beginning of the movie in synched, so I figure it's fine, and I run the whole mux.

When I'm done, the beginning is more or less in synch, but by the middle/end of the movie, it's out of synch again! It seems that something VERY STRANGE has happened with the audio... somehow it's stretched? I've never seen this happen..

Has this ever happened to anyone else?

[Sefy]

Ok, what i'd like to know is, why all that complication ??? Capturing with this, Project with that, demux with this, encode with that , why ???? what are you doing and what are you trying to do ???

[homerpez]

Well...

On an ATI ALL-IN-WONDER RADEON, the best way to capture high-res (while stying under 5 gigs a movie) is using MPEG-2.

As you'll find out on this forum, the files that ATI MMC put out are tough to play/convert. Since I'm going to go from 640x480 MPEG-2 to 352x240 MPEG-1, I need to run it thru TMPGENC. But, since it won't open the ATI-generated MPEG-2...

I have to run it thru DVD2AVI to make a project file, and demux the audio stream. But, since the audio stream comes out .mp2, and with a delay...

I have to run the audio thru WINAMP's diskOut plugin, to convert to WAV. Otherwise, I get a "ringing" effect in TMPGENC.

Then, when all encoded, I have to (or am supposed to) demux with TMPGENC, remux with bbMPEG (to help reduce sync drift, etc.).

Hope this explains my problems!

But back to the issue... neither TMPGENC nor BBMPEG's delay features help this... if I synch the beginning of the movie, it's got a delay again by the end of it, and vise-versa. Something happened to the audio!

I can't be the first person this has happend to, right?...

[Sefy]

oookkkk as they say
Now, this is just a suggestion, but have you tried using something OTHER then what ATI gives ?
like WinVCR or PowerVCR, or even capture to AVI with a MJPEG codec and then encode to MPG ?

[homerpez]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Now, this is just a suggestion, but have you tried using something OTHER then what ATI gives ?</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes... and...

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>like WinVCR or PowerVCR,</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

PowerVCR has been about the worst program I've used. I used to use it to cut/join, and even that doesn't work correctly. Plus, anyone with an AIW Radeon can tell you how fun it is to get the correct audio stream to come up in Composite mode!

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>or even capture to AVI with a MJPEG codec and then encode to MPG ?</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

ATI has this under "AVI Capture"... ... ... at a whole 14 MINUTES AVAILABLE! Maybe something wrong here, since I would think it could compress it along the way, and save some space at least...

Someone here had a similar problem, and someone else suggested that it's due to fragmented hard drive... so maybe that was it (I gave up eventually).

One solution I was to try, was to take my WAV (that was 4 seconds longer than the movie length) and "Time Compress" it in Soundforge, to make it the same duration as the video. Theoretically, then, there wouldn't be much difference (but since I deleted the source capture and gave up, I guess we'll never know!)

Thanks for the assistance...

[VidGuy]

I don't know whether you can set the audio type, but if you set it to 224 kbps, 44.1 KHz, you shouldn't need to run it through TMPGEnc (use toolame with TMPGEnc to get rid of the ringing, use ssrc.exe with TMPGEnc for 48 KHz -> 44.1 KHz conversion).

At any rate - use BBMPeg to mux the mp2 with the final m2v/mpv file from TMPGEnc (use a video-only project). I do this all the time (although with a Dazzle DVCII), and it works pretty well (I even do the DVD2AVI thing like you do).

[Feslmogh]

ATI has this under "AVI Capture"... ... ... at a whole 14 MINUTES AVAILABLE!

This is due to the 1 gig limit on Windows... Not ATI.

[Sefy]

Why do you aTI owners use the ATI tools ? can't you use alternative tools ? such as VirtualDub or something similar ? use an MJPEG codec
and you should be able to capture most if not all of the movie and a very good quality, and then just encode it later on, whatever limitations you have, any other user should have as well.

[homerpez]

VidGuy: This ringing actually DOES occur when using TOOLAME, at least for me. It happens any time that I go from .mp2 directly to .mp2. When I convert to WAV first, then to .mp2, I can use either TOOLAME or TMPGEnc, and both yeild the exact same quality (though TMPGEnc gives me fewer problems during encodes). To explain why I have to run it through at all: I lower the bitrate from 224 to 128.

Also, I did use bbMPEG in this case, but it was a simple fact that the audio had, somewhere along the line, ended up a full 4 seconds longer over a 90 minute movie. So when it was synched up at the start (using delays), it would be out-of synch by the end.

Feslmogh: I would assume that there would be no 1 GIG limit in Windows, since I'm not running Windows 2000, AND have NTFS-converted drives. I've already done captures in MPEG-2 that are bigger than 2 GB.

Sefy: Again, like I always say (though I forget if I did here), and as other ATI owners say, the ONLY option for an ATI AIW capture is MPEG-2, really. It's just the best at a great-quality picture, and decent file sizes. The only trade-off is that stupid fact that you have to alter the MPEG-2 source video in some way (like making a project file) in order to make things like TMPGEnc see it.

There's really no other alternative for the MPEG-2 capture (PowerVCR 2 doesn't count)

That, and I have tried VirtualDub. I HATE it. Not only is it difficult to configure/use, it's pretty much AVI-only, and it can only do interlaced captures with the ATI (and they look terrible). Why do this (and the top resolution I can get is 320x240 anyway), when I can do 640x480 MPEG-2, high motion estimation and 5.00MB sec bitrate?

[VidGuy]

Interesting - I've never gone from mp2 to mp2 - I always use WinAmp to convert to WAV first (not sure why, but it seemed like the right way to do it - apparently, I was right).

I personally have never heard a problem with TMPGEnc, but other have told me my encodes ring a bit if I use TMPGEnc, and nobody's told me that if I use Toolame.

[homerpez]

... just an update, this !@@#$%^ problem is repeatable.

Seems every time I capture (since I converted to NTFS), I consistently get an audio duration ~4 seconds longer than the video duration. I can't tell if it's audio stretching, or frames dropped (usually says only <1% frames dropped), but it happens every time now.

I doubt it's a frames-dropped issue only, since I had this happen dozens of times (even up to 1%) and the audio would be the correct duration (albeit with a delay by the time it goes thru DVD2AVI)...

What is this?!?!

[wildaces]

Out of sync audio usually happens to me when I drop video frames during capture.That's why you can never syncronize the entire movie.
A solution to this is to lower the bitrate or to shorten the capture length.

[hoangn]

homerpez, i feel for you. I have the same problem. I capture MPEG1 video off an ATI AIW 128 Pro, and the clip plays fine; audio and video are in sync. The problem arises
when I try to edit commercials from the file in TMPG and joined the clips. The audio becomes out of sync from the video. I've scoured the newsgroups, but I haven't been able to resolve the issue.

[Sefy]

There are atleast 3 capture programs i'm aware of that can capture direct to MPEG-2, and we won't count PowerVCR 2

PowerVCRII v3.0 Deluxe (hey, it's not 2! )
CinePlayer DVR v2.5 Plus (It's crap, but it exists)
nanoDVR (also known as Hauppauge WinTV-Recorder)

Have any of you guys ever tried any of those programs ? if the ATI software gives you so much problems and agonies, try finding better alternatives, what kind of software does ATI make that is so worth suffering for ??

[kinneera]

The only way I found to avoid audio sync problems with an ATI capture card is this: make sure you have MMC 7.1 and newest drivers (this guarantees that the card itself will capture at least 2 hours of video with everything in sync). Get VirtualDub and either the Huffyuv or an MJPEG codec. Use VirtualDub to capture as AVI (make sure you enable multisegment capture!!), then do all your cutting. If the combined size of the captured AVI's is greater than 4 GB, you will have to use the frameserver to get it to TMPGEnc for encoding to MPEG.

Here's the bottom line on filesize limits, since none of you really seems to know:
1 GB = max file size of AVI 1.0 file (very original spec)
2 GB = max file size of AVI 2.0 file (most common now)
4 GB = max file size of ANY file because of FAT32 filesystem addressing issues. NTFS I believe has a higher limit.

Sooooo, ATI restricts capture length of AVI to the AVI 1.0 spec, so no more than 1 GB max. Therefore, don't use the ATI capture tool for AVI capture. VirtualDub's multisegment capture will generate sequences of AVI 2.0 files automatically and has a mechanism for linking them all together during editing - this avoids ALL filesize limits.