Yep, see http://www.dv-info.net/cgi-bin/ib/ikonboard.cgi?s=9a9b87cca987ed7fc250ea5cc073e7f7;act=ST;f=7;t=47 on what happened.Originally Posted by leebo
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hahaha yeah, the deserved it. Seems like someone else has taken over the domain, and being very upfront about what disk your ordering.
(update: well there was another page there LAST NIGHT, it seems dead now also, strange.) -
Generic media update:
DVD-PRO (Princo): Purchased 125, burned 120 with 3 coasters
DVD-R (TDKG): Purchased 150, burned 80 so far with 0 coasters
Burns were done on a DVR-A03 [FW 1.68] using Prassi PrimoDVD. ALL BURNS WERE DONE AT 2X. Content on the disc was done using DVDit PE with dolby digital audio and a bandwidth of about 2.7mbps in NTSC format.
Discs were initailly tested on a JVC 521BK, and then positively tested on the followng machines with a batch of 10 DVDs:
AIWA XD-DV370
Grundig DVD-PAL (Europe)
Magnavox DVD611
Panasonic DVD-RV31
Pioneer DVD-106
Sony Playstation 2: SCPH-30001
Sony DVPS560D
Sony DVP-F21
There are also results from other machines, but I haven't been told what model machines these people have. However I know that I have sent out about 20 batches of 10 DVDs and only 1 person ever complained about disc problems, and that was because the machine is known as not supporting DVD-R media in the DVD player list here. When they used a different player they had no problems.
So contrary to popular belief you CAN burn cheap discs at 2X and have them play fine on a variety of players.
BTW: Meritline has is no longer shipping the Princos as 'generic', they are shipping the TDKs.
Regards,
Savant -
DVD-PRO (Princo): Purchased 125, burned 120 with 3 coasters
DVD-R (TDKG): Purchased 150, burned 80 so far with 0 coasters
Burns were done on a DVR-A03 [FW 1.68] using Prassi PrimoDVD. ALL BURNS WERE DONE AT 2X. Content on the disc was done using DVDit PE with dolby digital audio and a bandwidth of about 2.7mbps in NTSC format.
-snip-
So contrary to popular belief you CAN burn cheap discs at 2X and have them play fine on a variety of players.
Like I've suggested before, testing disc burns at 2.7 Mbps is like test-driving a car at 27 km/hr. That might be fine for specific uses, but it certainly isn't an adequate test.
edited. -
Like I've suggested before, testing disc burns at 2.7 Mbps is like test-driving a car at 27 km/hr. That might be fine for specific uses, but it certainly isn't an adequate test.
In this analogy, DVD media is not the car but it is the ROAD. With your analogy (which is a bit on the low side) the speed would be the road's speed limit. In this case I suggest a speed of 50Km/h (or 30mph) is more fair for our comparison. To extend this, the DVD players are the CAR.
OK, the generic DVD media is like a road with 50Km/h speed limit, and as such the road will not be made for high speed driving. If you attempt to drive a car faster you may lose control and wreck the car or hit a pothole etc. On the other hand, a high quality road (like a Pioneer DVD) is made better and is much more suited for higher speed limits (100Km/h and up).
The inability of your car to drive 100km/h on a road with a 50km/h speed limit is not the fault of the road. Some cars are better built, (like a Hummer) and can handle ANY road at higher speeds, while some cars are not designed for high speed on low speed roads. (like a Honda Civic)
However, DVD media doesn't have speed limits. So I treat it like a country road where there are no speed limits. You have to try the road out and see how it runs. If it has a lot of potholes, then you don't drive as fast, if it is smooth, you drive faster.
It's up to the DRIVER to establish the limit of an unsigned road, and to drive flat out at a high rate of speed, they should not complain if their car doesn't make it.
Nowhere on the DVD media is there a guarantee of a minimum bitrate for recordings. As such let the buyer beware and TEST a DVD before buying a large batch. The same goes for players. If you want your player to play a certain kind of DVD, then take that DVD in BEFORE you buy and make sure it plays in store.
However, the point here is that the cheap DVD players MUST take responsibility for their part in their inability to play some media. If my player can play cheap media encoded at a high bitrate, then it is the fault of the other player if it can't play the same disc. (I have done burns at 5-6mbps and they worked as good as the low bitrate ones - although I only did a few burns)
The media, on the other hand, should likely be better marked, but consumer education would likely be more sucessful. IE, no you can't pirate that latest movie onto a generic DVD and expect it to be as good as the factory pressed version.
Regards,
Savant -
The inability of your car to drive 100km/h on a road with a 50km/h speed limit is not the fault of the road. Some cars are better built, (like a Hummer) and can handle ANY road at higher speeds, while some cars are not designed for high speed on low speed roads. (like a Honda Civic)
However, DVD media doesn't have speed limits. So I treat it like a country road where there are no speed limits. You have to try the road out and see how it runs. If it has a lot of potholes, then you don't drive as fast, if it is smooth, you drive faster.
-snip-
Nowhere on the DVD media is there a guarantee of a minimum bitrate for recordings. As such let the buyer beware and TEST a DVD before buying a large batch. The same goes for players. If you want your player to play a certain kind of DVD, then take that DVD in BEFORE you buy and make sure it plays in store.
How does relate to your analogy? Well I guess it'd be in the hypothetical situation where the Paved Road Forum has stated that all 100 km/hr PRF highways must safely support 100 km/hr (60 mph) driving with even low end cars, as long as those cars bear the PRF logo. They have done this to ensure that PRF car drivers know they can drive at at least 100 km/hr if a highway has the PRF designation. If a highway is in poor condition and cannot support that speed, then it can not be called a PRF highway, although you may still drive at a slower speed on it if you wish.
Mitsui gets into the PRF highway business. They only build 100 km/hr highways that would pass muster under scrutiny by the Paved Road Forum. These are expensive however.
Joe-cheapness gets into the highway business too. He doesn't care too much about specifications, but tries to sell it as 100 km/hr compatible. User experience is that it's probably better suited for 50 km/hr. So we know it's probably fine for 50 km/hr, but people should be warned that it won't be safe at full speed as advertised. -
Well, I'll just throw in my experience. I bought a bunch of the unbranded, generic esbuy dvd-r's. Wasn't even the cheapest price, they were like $3.25 each. Not a single one has worked to the end when playing on an Apex 5131 or the cheap Mintek (like 10 of them and counting). I now use them as test disks to be thrown away. What's worse, I can SEE the flaws on the disk when they are examined closely.
For all the trouble I'm going through to get the movie, rip it, encode it and then burn it, is it really worth 2 bucks to save on the disk? I buy the Verbatim branded dvd-r's for $4.89. Never had one fail. And even if the esbuy's played on some "higher quality" players and such, why screw with the risk of compatibility problems down the road? The answer for me is that it's not worth the risk to save a couple bucks.
Knowing business, I suspect there's a reason they're called "unbranded". -
Well, if you wish to use that analogy that's fine, but my opinion is that ALL media should be at least capable of burning at 100 km/hr...errr... 11 Mbps. Why? Because that is the marked spec - 1X DVD. If a DVD-R blank cannot support full 1X DVD speeds then it does not meet the specifications as set out by the format, and thus is not good quality. 1X DVD is the specification as set out by the DVD Forum.
The DVD forum specification is something completely different from the DVD-R specification. I'm talking about the PHYSICAL FORMAT specification, ECMA-279. It's the manufacturing specification for DVD-R, and nowhere in that specification does it suggest that a particular bandwidth of content be able to be recorded.
I see lots of info on how much data a disc can hold, how that data is organized into sectors and data blocks, pit density blah blah blah. So tell me where in ECMA-279 does it state that any given media bandwidth needs to be supported?
The ability of a device to playback at a given amount of bandwidth falls to the DVD PLAYER MANUFACTURERS. If they can't deliver, then don't blame the media.
Regards,
Savant -
Here we go again.
Anyways, check out Pioneer's white paper on the DVD-R format.
"Properly recorded DVD-R discs should be playable on any destination device that can both physically recognize DVD-R media and properly make use of whatever data or application layer is written..."
We all know that the DVD Video spec requires full bit rate 1X playback, not just 0.5X whatever. If you wish to justify your purchases of cheap discs for your usage, then there is no need. For your low bit rates, your experimentation has illustrated that they are adequate.
However, it is a great disservice to the newbies in this forum to solely blame DVD playback devices for the inadequacies of cheap media. Remember, full bit rate playback from 1X recordings on cheap media may not even work properly on Pioneer/Panasonic DVD-R compatible machines, and many of us are not satisfied with low bit rate recordings. -
Anyways, check out Pioneer's white paper on the DVD-R format.
Do me a favour. Goto this site:
http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/STAND/ECMA-279.HTM
At the bottom of that page you will find a link to the ECMA-279 specification in PDF format. Download the file (don't try to view it online, the site is slow) and then look through it. You'll see what I'm talking about. All the specifications for MAKING a DVD-R disc are there. We're talking the PHYSICAL manufacture of the disc here.
How a burner burns to that disc is the responsibility of the burner and authoring software, and how a player plays the disc is the responsibility of the player.
Only if you can see PHYSICAL defects on a disc is that the responsibilty of the media manufacturer. (or if you have a way to test the optical integrity of the disc, that's good too)
Regards,
Savant -
We're talking the PHYSICAL manufacture of the disc here.
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The rest of us are talking about DVD-R specifications as a whole.
Let's say 2 years down the road we get a DVD-R2 specification that can use the SAME media that we use now. Of course this new specification will be different than the DVD-R specification, but it will use the SAME PHYSICAL FORMAT SPECIFICATION for the actual disc.
If the disc is made using the physical format specification, and it complies with that specification, then any problems a person has with that disc is as a result of the other devices in question.
You can't shrug off the physical format specifications simply because you refuse to accept the fact that the DVD players are in the wrong here.
Regards,
Savant -
Why would a player be at fault? Data on a DVD (regardless of flaver) is read off the disk at a CONSTANT 26.16Mbps (notice the word "constant"). So, any disk feed into a player has to be able to be read at this rate - period.
But, I don't want to get involved in this discussion, so just ignore my comments. -
Well those specifications have NOTHING to do with the manufacture of the media.
Dye composition/quality, etc. is directly responsible for burn quality. I don't believe the exact dye compositions are specified, but of course to meet with DVD-R specifications, one must have a good enough grade of dye with the proper characteristics to burn adequately and playback adequately with equipment that is up to spec.
Say for example that a dye will respond to the laser at 1X burns, but because of the nature of the media it gives less of a reflectivity difference between 0 and 1 than good quality media. With ultra high-end drives, that reflectivity difference may be enough and the ultra high-end drive reads it fine, but with your average DVD-R certified drive the burn quality may not be good enough to support normal playback. Assuming that the lower end drive truly still is up to spec, then here, the media is at fault.
Using your argument, because the exact composition of the dye is not specified, and because an ultra-high end $$$ machine can still read the resultant disc, then the disc is OK even though a within-spec DVD-R reader cannot. This of course makes little logical sense.
You may wish that DVD-R playback devices were more forgiving, but the fact of the matter is that DVD-R playback devices that have been tested as DVD-R compatible still will have problems with crappy media. And that is because crappy media is well, crappy. -
I've said before, if there are physical defects in the media, or physical defects in the manufacturing process, then the DVD media manufacturer is absolutely 100% responsible. I don't dispute this.
However, if the DVD media is made to the currently accepted worldwide manufacturing standard for DVD-R discs, and a person has problems, then it is NOT the problem of the media if that disc can be played on other players.
If there are issues with cheaper media, then these negligent DVD player manufacturers should spend a measley $100 to buy 10 of each brand of media and TEST the damn things before they toss their disposable DVD players on the market. The fact they don't spend the tiny amount of money or time to test them shows they have no interest in properly supporting the DVD-R standard. (which has NOT been formally introduced on DVD players and is NOT formally supported)
Regards,
Savant -
Well Tried Primedisc at $1.60 each in a 25 spindle, recorded in Panasonic DMR-E20 at 9800 bitrate(1hr speed) and 5000 bitrate(2hr speed) could not tell any differenc in quality between them TDK and COMPUSA brand, so far have played in all but one type of DVD Player, have tried in 4 APEX 500W, it played in 2 and would not in 2 others, but then again VCD's or SVCD's would not also in those 2 players either.
The players They play fine in.
Daewoo 5800
Panasonic 61-k
Pioneer 343
APEX 1500
Sampo 631CF
I would not go ant cheaper than the Primedisc though. -
Anyone that honestly thinks a princo disc is the same quality as a Mitsui, apple, (Throw in any other 2x approved pioneer media here) is absolutely insane.
I have tested large assortments of cheap media, and I can say that some of the best players out there will play most of the cheapies just fine. Most the the average ones will have errors/pixilation during points of the movie.
On quality media, the best players play flawlessly, and average players play without error also.
This tells me that the specs of the cheap dvd-r's are slightly out of whack somehow.
If you think otherwise, take a high bitrate movie, burn it on a cheap-o disc and play it in a playstation. Good luck. Take the same movie, burn on a mitsui, playstation is just happy. Dont see how you can blame this on anything BUT the media. -
Eug and Savant,
Great discussion! We're all benefiting from your male hormones.
Of course, it would've been more valuable if you had been talking about the same subject!
Anyway, none of this is really important as long as we keep in mind that PC's are superior to Mac's.I don't have a bad attitude...
Life has a bad attitude! -
Anyone that honestly thinks a princo disc is the same quality as a Mitsui, apple, (Throw in any other 2x approved pioneer media here) is absolutely insane.
However, people still sem to be missing the point here. The media is a manufactured item that has MANY variables. There can be different dye consistencies, dope in the metal backing, temperature, etc. However with a DVD player the only 'variable' is the laser, and that can be calibrated to be more forgiving of these small imperfections.
While you can make two DVD players that are identical, 2 batches of DVD discs (regardless of low or high quality) WILL be different. It can't be helped. If a DVD player can't play them, then the player has not been made to play them properly.
I've got 200 generic discs that I have tested this on, and with all the variables they WILL play on most (but not all) players. There is absolutely NO DVD disc that has yet to have been made that will play on EVERY single DVD player. I don't care HOW good it is.
That tells me that the DVD players are the problem here, and will continue to be so until they spend more time testing them before selling them.
Anyway, none of this is really important as long as we keep in mind that PC's are superior to Mac's.
Regards,
Savant -
Anyway, none of this is really important as long as we keep in mind that PC's are superior to Mac's.
Oh and to keep this post (sort of) on topic, notice the VIDEO_TS folder on the right. For picture slideshow DVDs and for DVD backups, I generally use my Mac. For burns I use Apple media for important stuff, and noname stuff for not-so-important stuff. For test discs I'll just make either .toast or .nrg images for testing on the Mac or PC respectively, or else I'll burn to DVD-RAM (which plays in my set top DVD player). -
Has anyone tried the following DVD-R media from tigerdirect.com or other places?
Emtec 10pack for $24.99
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?sku=E505-1004%20P
Samsung Data 20pack for $49.99
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?sku=Z800-1012
info on Samsung media:
http://www.samsungmedia.com/total_frame.asp?index=products&html=dvdr
If yes, did you record in 1x or 2x?
Thanks
Darius -
I tried the Samsung - they seem to burn OK on my Panasonic drive (limited to 1X) and playback fine on my APEX 1500.
Any idea why they package them differently for Data or Video ? The specs. look the same, and since only the Data variety was for sale at Tiger, those were the ones I tried.
Bill -
I hoped that the Samsung would be 2x
No idea why they have two deferent versions, the spacs like you are saying are that same. I will email them, maybe I will get some info.
Can you recommend any good 'brand name' 2X media that is within reasonable price range?
Also is any one lese concerned about the lifespan of the generic media? -
Dariusf -
Have you considered the Verbatim Media - it is certified for 2X and is available at CompUSA at 10 for $49.99.
I have been using it for things I do for other people. It's my Drive that's limited to 1X but that's fine by me. Capturing, Editing and Authoring are the time consumers. -
I just got the Pioneer DVR-A04 drive thats why I was looking at 2X
You are absolutely right about the speed not been very important when you consider all the time you need to actually capture DV footage, edit and prepare. You can do most of the actual burning on the off hours like at night. I have not even installed the drive, no time But I'm wondering how sensitive the recording process is to the performance and activity on the system given most of my drives are SCSI Ultra160. I'm sure it would not be too happy if I was to capture DV content via firewire at the same time Got to get that RAID5 setup -
tvtuna, I found same Verbatim for $44.99
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0121673 -
"But I'm wondering how sensitive the recording process is to the performance and activity on the system given most of my drives are SCSI Ultra160."I don't have a bad attitude...
Life has a bad attitude! -
ultra160 gives you 160MB/s of transfer on the BUS. So if you for example dump DV video from firewire to one drive you should have no problems transferring data to the DVD recorder from another drive. Its basically the ability do transfer allot of data on the bus and the added performance of the SCSI drives. Most new ones running at 10,000RPM or even 15,000RPM with sometimes as large cache as 8MB. You can also increase the performance with RAID configurations and caching RAID controllers like on my web servers I only use IDE drives for storage for things like MP3 libraries or video dumps like that 6 hours of DV vacation video I just dumped for future editing. 6 hours x 3.6MB/s you get the picture
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Yes, I know all that.
But you stated a question about wether it might affect the burn process, which is very slow compared to whatever million miles per hour your SCSI drives can do.
Even without burnproof, I doubt if would make any difference.I don't have a bad attitude...
Life has a bad attitude! -
I thought the burnproof on the A04 was just for the CD side. Would swear i read in the documentation that it wasnt active for dvd writing.
Just thought i would jump in the middle of the conversation.
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