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  1. Member
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    Case in point:

    My bro bought an under $300 Philips player that has mucho trouble playing DVD-R.

    He also has a $70 Apex that plays anything thrown at it.
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    Originally Posted by Savant
    We're still getting away from the point though. Let's come at it from an opposite angle.

    Should a 'cheap' player play all media just as good as an expensive one? Should there be any difference? If not, then why buy a more expensive player? There are cheap models that will do the same things (features) as expensive ones, so who pay the extra money?

    Also, wouldn't it make sense that it you pay $99 bucks for a player you shouldn't expect it to play cheaper media?

    On the other hand, if you take a given media and it WILL play in an expensive machine and will NOT play in a cheap machine, why isn't the cheap machine at fault? If the expensive machine can be built to read it, why not the cheap one?

    It seems the player manufacturers are getting a free ride here.

    Regards,

    Savant
    You seem to think the flaw of cheap media is only that it doesn't play in picky machines.

    If this were true, then it wouldn't be a big deal. Anyways, as we all know, there is NO requirement that any DVD player read DVD-R at all.

    More importantly, cheap media does not burn consistently, as I've said about 5 times already. Some discs will work fine in an average machine, while the next disc won't work well at all. This tells me there is a serious problem with some cheap discs' quality control.

    Using your car example: If I buy a Camry, I cannot expect it to do 0-60 in 8 seconds. However, I can consistently NOT expect it to do it in 8 seconds, but I might expect it to do it in say 13 seconds (or whatever), consistently for the base model. 1 year down the line it will still likely do it in 13 seconds.

    With the Yugo, a year from now it may do 0-60 in 15 seconds, or it may be stuck at the garage getting fixed, because they suck. Unfortunately, you can't fix a cheap DVD-R which has gone bad.

    Feel free to buy the Yugo, since it's your money. You may save money in the short run, but in the end it just may end up not being worth it.

    Indeed, leebo, that very article you mention suggests that users buy Apple media, no?

    Savant, why are you so hell bent on defending cheap media? You know as well as I do that some of it is just garbage. That said, I use some cheap media, but there are specific ones I have learned not to trust, because quite frankly they are terrible. The cheap media I do use (for non-critical stuff) has been tested by me first. I don't just go and buy any cheap media and when it doesn't work well just blame the player/burner.

    Your arguments simply defend poor media when no such defence is justified.
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    Originally Posted by eug
    If this were true, then it wouldn't be a big deal. Anyways, as we all know, there is NO requirement that any DVD player read DVD-R at all.
    If there is no requirement that any DVD player play DVD-R, then WHY do people complain that the players don't play any given disc?
    Originally Posted by eug
    You seem to think the flaw of cheap media is only that it doesn't play in picky machines.
    Isn't that what this is all about?
    Originally Posted by eug
    More importantly, cheap media does not burn consistently, as I've said about 5 times already. Some discs will work fine in an average machine, while the next disc won't work well at all. This tells me there is a serious problem with some cheap discs' quality control.
    Again, this is based on ASSUMPTION. Why is it no one can explain to me why I can burn a spindle of 100 Princos (with one coaster) and have them ALL play on both my burner and two set top players. That seems pretty consistent to me. There is no way to conclusively prove that it is the media and not the burner, mastering method or player that is at fault.
    Originally Posted by eug
    Your arguments simply defend poor media when no such defence is justified.
    Really? If anything I think I have been pretty fair minded here. In return I have asked that people either provide evidence that CONCLUSIVELY proves that the media is at fault when a given disc won't play, and/or indicate to what extent player manufacturers are responsible for making players that will play this media. So far no one has done either.

    Regards,

    Savant
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    leebo, that very article you mention suggests that users buy Apple media, no?
    True. But since I haven't had great luck with it myself, I'll keep looking.
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    Not had great luck with apple disk? I'd seriously look into your burning process, Apple disk are top knotch.

    The long and the short of this discussion?

    Both the player and the media plays a role, all i can ask of the player is that they stick to the standard that allows playback of DVD-R media (my apex does this) and though I am aware that there may be other players that have higher quality parts and do a better job of this the one I purchased is a "cheap one"

    Since the player is sticking to the standards and I'm quite sure of this I then point to the cheap media as the source of my problems since the higher cost/quality media has worked EVERYTIME on this player.

    So if the player can play DVD-R media of good quality fine, and the DVD-Rs that are cheaper do not play consistantly... then I ask you where is the break down?

    All my guides try to do is point out the media I have found that "works for me" so that it might serve as a guide to people who are looking for a starting point.
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    Isn't that what this is all about?
    No, and you should know that if you read my other posts carefully. It's only one part of the problem, as I've said.

    Why is it no one can explain to me why I can burn a spindle of 100 Princos (with one coaster) and have them ALL play on both my burner and two set top players. That seems pretty consistent to me. There is no way to conclusively prove that it is the media and not the burner, mastering method or player that is at fault.
    As I said earlier, you could be using a different form of Princos, or you could have lucked out in your batches of Princos.

    I know it is not the mastering because as I said earlier it's a commercial non-encrypted DVD that works fine. I know it's not the burner because with good quality media, a burned DVD works in the burner 100% of the time. I know it's the media because with very specific media, the burns don't even work 100% consistently in the burner and furthermore, with this same brand of media, people ALL OVER THE WORLD report the same problems with various brands of burners WHICH WORK FINE WITH GOOD MEDIA.

    You may be lucky, but that doesn't mean it's a smart thing to trust your important data or video to media that most people think is not good quality. Mind you there's nothing wrong with using it for some purposes.

    Not had great luck with apple disk? I'd seriously look into your burning process, Apple disk are top knotch.
    I agree. Apple media is widely reported to be consistently good quality (although nothing's perfect).
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    Hm... It's not that media from one brand or one manufacturer is perfect and another is completely faulty.

    Well, there is no such comprehensive data that so well reflect the reality.

    People over forums in such sites as CDRlabs.com and CDfreaks.com have been doing some tests and many companies and individuals do similar tests.

    It's a little too early to completely ignore discs from Princo or Ritek. They can receive feedback and so improve the materials or processes or whatever. They buy and learn from Pioneer, Philips, and other leaders. It takes time to learn more and do it better.
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    I'd seriously look into your burning process
    In this case my burning process was using the Pioneer set top DVR-7000.

    This topic is as effective as the Mac vs. PC argument that seems to go on forever.
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    Originally Posted by Kennyshin
    Hm... It's not that media from one brand or one manufacturer is perfect and another is completely faulty.

    Well, there is no such comprehensive data that so well reflect the reality.

    People over forums in such sites as CDRlabs.com and CDfreaks.com have been doing some tests and many companies and individuals do similar tests.

    It's a little too early to completely ignore discs from Princo or Ritek. They can receive feedback and so improve the materials or processes or whatever. They buy and learn from Pioneer, Philips, and other leaders. It takes time to learn more and do it better.
    I agree. Savant's experience suggests that some of the Princo media is (relatively) OK. I'm just surprised at how bad some of it is. Hopefully Princo can improve their quality.

    Originally Posted by leebo
    In this case my burning process was using the Pioneer set top DVR-7000.
    Interesting, because the media ID utility at least in the past has identified Apple media as Pioneer made. This may have changed recently though, since one guy (unsubstantiated) has stated his new batches are identified as TDK. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the media ID utility though, and I can't confirm the ID of Apple media now either since the utility doesn't seem to want to work on my XP machine with the Panasonic LF-D311 in a Firewire enclosure.

    Also, while it probably has nothing to do with it, if you haven't already looked into it I'd suggest calling up Pioneer about the firmware issue. Some of the machines have a firmware problem.
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    Seeing as we'll never reach consensus, let's just agree to disagree.

    I think the point of this debate was that I wanted people to open their minds a bit more since I feel that it is a bit irresponsible for people to place all the responsibility on the media and not on the burner/player manufacturers.

    Until a method is developed (aside from hearsay and personal opinion) that allows people to CONCLUSIVELY test media, all of this talk on both sides is just that. Talk.

    Mind you, perhaps we have expanded each other's minds, if only slightly.

    Rgerads,

    Savant
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  11. Originally Posted by Savant

    Has anyone tried recording lower bitrate video to this media? Perhaps this media isn't condusive to playing high bitrate data. In my case I burn fairly low bitrate data (under 3M) and run into no problems.
    Regards,

    Savant
    In the message above yours i DID say the lower bit rate stuf seems ok.
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  12. Well I just got a Panasonic DMR-E20 and have tried 2 different media

    Frys electronics own cheap brand GQ
    TDK

    both record and playback perfect in the panasonic recorder and players by Daewoo, APEX, Panasonic, but its my understanding that those ultra cheap media out on the net for $1.50 to $2.50 won't even work in the Panasonic Recorder, so what!!!! $4 is cheap enough for me, considering the quality of the finished product looks just like the original.
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  13. FYI, CompUSA has TDK DVD-RW disks for under $7 & Sony -RW 2-packs for $15.
    *ReplayTV + Pioneer 104 == heaven*
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  14. Just a line to say that i used the prodvd 2x dvd-r disc from Yahoo supermedia store in my Pioneer 104 with Ulead moviefactory. They wrote at 2x no problem and played like a dream in my old Apex ad-600a with the LI18 firmware update and N6R0M0 chip upgrade. I hope this helps somebody
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  15. Price Drops may be starting folks!

    For me the best deal right now, factoring in 2x, reliability, price, and I need unbranded:

    http://store.yahoo.com/cdrsavings/mitdv47genpu2.html

    Mitsui Silver unbranded 2x (very reliable) silver, 50 @ 4.39 each


    http://www.discmakers.com/rom/product_pages/blankdvdr.html

    Again, Mitsui Silver unbranded 2x, 50 @ 4.49 or 100 @ 4.29
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  16. Member
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    Do not touch Meritline's DVDPRO series with a ten foot pole.

    I bought a 100 pack from them, picked four random discs, made four movies, and not one of them played without artifacting and skips.

    Returned it, purchased Ritek brand media, followed the same process, and not one error.

    Ritek currently lists for $1.25/disc on www.meritline.com

    cheers,

    k.

    (tested on PS2, Panasonic A110, Apex 500w, Apex AD-1200)
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    Originally Posted by Savant
    Actually, my comments are not directed at any one media at all. It's the principle I am debating here. The question still stands.

    Is it up to a media manufacturer to haul in EVERY possible DVD player ever made in order to test for compatibility?
    Give it a year or two for people to jump on the DVD-R train, and every new DVD player will have DVD-R support. The manufacturers, believe it or not, manufacture based on the consumers' demands.

    Originally Posted by Savant
    I believe that people are being very narrow minded when they suggest that just because their player will play one brand of media, that it automatically means that every other brand of media should work, and if it doesn't then the media is at fault.

    It's almost like people are saying that there is no such thing as a 'cheap' player, and that no matter what the cost of the player it's always the fault of the media.

    I don't want to drone on this subject any longer than necessary, but I feel a slight duty, seeing how I've only actually *purchased* one DVD player, the APEX AD-1200, and had ultimate success with this player over *any* of the $100 + DVD players. It really says something when a $60 USD DVD player will play almost anything thrown at it, and the $350 Panasonic will only play a certain brand of "premium" media.

    Guess what, it's all about the media. Using someone's earlier car example in a different light: Think of the media you use for your DVD player as the type of gasoline you use for your car. Older cars require a higher grade of gasoline to perform better. However the newer cars can function just as well as the older cars that use premium gasonline, but only needing regular gasoline (there have been numerous car & driver studies on this). Now tying this into DVDs: The older DVD players "require" a top notch brand of media, simply because it honestly was made in a different era and a different mindset. The new era of DVD players are going to be streamlined to support regular, generic media, because the public demands it, and the technology is already there (the Apex as proof). I am a huge advocate of cheap, reliable media. It's all I have ever purchased. I have had two bad batches, though only because I decided to get risky and go bottom line, but the next level up from that (weighing in at $1.25/disc atm) I have not had one coaster. All play flawlessly on my Apex AD-1200, Panasonic A110, PS2, and Apex AD-500W.

    Cheap media, albeit its bad publicity currently, will emerge victoriously in the end. Think about CD-Rs now. Do you really care what brand they are these days, or do you look for the cheapest spindle available? (if you say yes then you may have OCD and you should think about getting it checked out). CD-R support ten years ago was practically non-existant. Now you can't buy a CD player that doesn't support it. DVD-R support will follow in its footsteps.

    my .02 cents,

    k.
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    Originally Posted by fand
    Ritek currently lists for $1.25/disc on www.meritline.com
    I don't see any Ritek branded disks listed on the site. What's the exact link to the disks that you bought?

    Thanks.
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  19. Member
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    Originally Posted by LanceSteel
    Originally Posted by fand
    Ritek currently lists for $1.25/disc on www.meritline.com
    I don't see any Ritek branded disks listed on the site. What's the exact link to the disks that you bought?

    Thanks.
    I always keep the latest type of media I am working with on my site here. However the direct link can be found here.

    cheers,

    k.
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  20. Originally Posted by Savant

    Is it up to a media manufacturer to haul in EVERY possible DVD player ever made in order to test for compatibility?
    The answer-- YES! A consumer has a right to expect that a product will work far and wide no matter what players they own. Otherwise where do you draw the line? Should a company be deemed acceptable if its media only works in 75% of all machines? 60, 50%? 25%? The product should be as compatible as possible with as many new and old machines as possible.

    Companies *can* accomplish this, and do, all the time. The budget to run a factory is massive and severe testing should be part of that budget. Companies can test in-house, or outsource to third party testing groups (of which there are tons all over the world), or even send the product out to electronics manufacturers for testing in many cases. Q/A is as important a field as programming when it comes to software and media. There are people specifically trained in the QA field and know how to perform rigorous scientific tests.

    I say if you you're willing to forgive a product that has sloppy compatibility issues, you must be the manufacturer!
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    The answer-- YES!
    Are you mad?!? There has to be at least a thousand different DVD players, and there is no way they could afford to do that kind of testing and keep the cost low. Not to mention the problems trying to obtain players that are no longer being manufacturered. Maybe YOU want to pay high prices for media, but I don't.

    On the other hand, a DVD player manufacturer wouldn't have any problem bringing in samples of all the different DVD media since it would only cost them a couple hundred bucks. Compare that to the tens of thousands it would cost a media manufactrer to purchase a pile of DVD players.

    I have nothing to do with the manufacture of DVD media, but I do find it silly that people don't expect DVD player manufacturers to spend a lousy $200 bucks buying one of each of the various DVD media and testing them before they start mass production of their DVD players. You make it sound like the DVD player manufacturers have NO responsibility to test their players.

    My DVD player plays ALL kinds of DVD media. I have yet to find a properly burned disc that would not play in it. Now THAT is proper testing.

    You've also ignored the fact that there is only slapshod adherance to the DVD-R format by DVD player manufacturers, and you also completely ignored the fact that DVD player manufactrers are IN NO WAY OBLIGATED to provide ANY support for DVD-R. It's not part of the DVD standard.

    Until that changes, it's not up to media manufacturers to deal with poorly designed DVD players.

    Regards,

    Savant
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    Originally Posted by Savant
    My DVD player plays ALL kinds of DVD media. I have yet to find a properly burned disc that would not play in it.
    Apparently you haven't tried princo brand dvd-r's! Just kidding!
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    Lance, believe it or not I actually burned over 100 Princos and only had 3 coasters. Right now I'm burning with a batch of generic TDK/Ritek and I haven't had any coasters.

    However some people seem to think that all media should accept content at any bitrate. I don't burn high bitrate content to generic DVD-Rs. It's just plain silly. I wouldn't expect a Honda Civic to win the Indy 500, so I don't expect that a $2 disc wll reproduce content at the same quality level as a $10 one.

    Most of the complaints I hear are from people who are trying to burn pirated movies, and I really don't have any sympathy for them if it doesn't work.

    Regards,

    Savant
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    Originally Posted by Savant
    Lance, believe it or not I actually burned over 100 Princos and only had 3 coasters. Right now I'm burning with a batch of generic TDK/Ritek and I haven't had any coasters.
    The Ritek branded and unbranded disks are excellent dvd-r's. I've used two types of Ritek disks (gold disks that were around $2.70/disk and those that were $1.65/disk) and I've never had any problems with them at all (using them as either video or data disks.) I've never used any 'high priced' media like apple, pioneer etc. I did get some generic 2x TDK manufactured disks that were utterly horrible. I wrote to these disks using both data and/or video and nothing could read them except the dvd writer.

    Originally Posted by savant
    However some people seem to think that all media should accept content at any bitrate. I don't burn high bitrate content to generic DVD-Rs
    I don't know if bitrate really is the problem. I burn high/low bitrate and data to generic 'ritek' dvd's and haven't had any problems. I think what is the problem is what you pointed out before: There is a lack of communication between dvd-rom/dvd player manufacturers and dvd-r manufactureres. Also I think some companies (ie princo) are out to make a quick buck and have low quality control for their product.

    The situatuion right now is better than that of the early cd-r days. I remember buying a 10 pack of cd-r's and only getting 6 out of the 10 to burn correctly. Once demand goes up they work out the manufacturing technique for dvd-r's it'll be just like how cd-r's are now.

    Also someone on another forum said that a lot of companies are no longer carrying princo's due to the lack of quality.
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  25. Don't know if this is considered cheap media but I tired Primedisc out at 25 spindle for $39.99($1.60 each) on my DMR-E20 at different bitrates, 1 hr (9500) 2 hr (5000) and 4hr (2500) they recorded fine and played back on all my DVD players and all but 2 of my friends and family DVD Players, a APEX 600 and out of 3 APEX 500W, it would not play in one of them. I could tell no differenc in recording or playback quality between the TDK media and Primedisc and thats viewing on a 36in TV.
    Plus before I buy any DVD palyer or recorder I take 3-4 of my own recorded media down with and have them try it out on the floor model before I decide to purchase it.
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    Originally Posted by thxkid
    Don't know if this is considered cheap media but I tired Primedisc out at 25 spindle for $39.99($1.60 each)
    Just a side note, Primedisc are manufactured by Ritek.
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  27. I purchased a 25 pk of meritline disks($1.79 each) and I'm using a DMR-E30. I'm 10 for 10. No coasters and happy with the quality.
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  28. Originally Posted by Savant
    The answer-- YES!
    Are you mad?!? There has to be at least a thousand different DVD players, and there is no way they could afford to do that kind of testing and keep the cost low. Not to mention the problems trying to obtain players that are no longer being manufacturered. Maybe YOU want to pay high prices for media, but I don't.
    I don't say this to brag but to establish my credentials. I'm the owner of a software testing company and electronics manufacturers usually provide compatibility testing, and there are a ton of QA and Underwriting labs out there. And yes there may well be 1,000 DVD players but often times the guts are identical and even manufactured at the same location, the only difference being bells and whistles or brand name, so the actual number of units required isn't nearly as large. Outsourcing probably makes the most sense, but even internal testing, once the units are purchased, is a matter of burning a volume of test disks and putting them into units and monitoring them. It could be done in a small window of time. It could even be potentially done by the actual manufacturer of the equipment the factories use. And it's an initial expense, much lower than any R&D project, and it's a one-off expense, with the exception of periodic spot tests and new compatibility testing with new models, so the cost is essentially a one-time addition to the budget just like the actual assembly of the factory itself.

    Furthermore DVD manufacturers do test their players extensively, and if you get a piece of junk from lik-sang.com that doesn't work worth a crap you can guess why-- same reason crappy media doesn't work well-- insufficient testing. Even though DVD manufacturers only have an obligation to meet the rigid standards set forth by the DVD licensing people, they test the heck out of the product anyway. And unlike an el cheapo media factory, Panasonic for example has to release a DVD player that works reasonably well or risk losing market share for years to come. And I think it's more ludicrous to suggest that Panasonic or any company shouldn't release a new line of DVD players until they work magnificently with the cheapest and most unreliable media manufacturers out there.

    Ironically, since I use these DVD-R's for commercial purposes, unlike you I *do* pay for the higher priced media because I need to know that it works reliably for nearly all my customers.
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    However some people seem to think that all media should accept content at any bitrate. I don't burn high bitrate content to generic DVD-Rs. It's just plain silly. I wouldn't expect a Honda Civic to win the Indy 500, so I don't expect that a $2 disc wll reproduce content at the same quality level as a $10 one.
    That makes no sense. I don't expect a Honda Civic to win an Indy race, but I do expect it to get me reliably to my destination at as fast as the speed limit.

    Using your analogy, you are not expecting your Civic to be reliable enough to get you to your destination while going 100 km/hr, so you've compromised and are only driving your brand spankin' new car at 50 km/hr.

    I am one of those people that thinks "that all media should accept content at any bitrate", as long as that bitrate within the DVD spec. 10+ Mbps is within DVD spec, and thus all media should meet that spec. Indeed, I even burn my home videos at ultra high bitrates, and when I get miniDV, I'll probably make DVD-Rs with 7+ Mbps video streams and 1 or 2 PCM audio tracks.

    Older cars require a higher grade of gasoline to perform better. However the newer cars can function just as well as the older cars that use premium gasonline, but only needing regular gasoline (there have been numerous car & driver studies on this). Now tying this into DVDs: The older DVD players "require" a top notch brand of media, simply because it honestly was made in a different era and a different mindset. The new era of DVD players are going to be streamlined to support regular, generic media, because the public demands it, and the technology is already there (the Apex as proof). I am a huge advocate of cheap, reliable media. It's all I have ever purchased. I have had two bad batches, though only because I decided to get risky and go bottom line, but the next level up from that (weighing in at $1.25/disc atm) I have not had one coaster. All play flawlessly on my Apex AD-1200, Panasonic A110, PS2, and Apex AD-500W.
    Older cars function best on the gas they were designed for, just like newer cars, and that is not necessarily premium higher octane gas.

    Unfortunately, it's not just older players that require better media. Pioneer and Panasonic burners require good media too. The failure rate with poor media is much higher than with good media.

    I too want good reliable cheap media, but right now it's still a crap shoot. Things will change with time, but if your data (and video) is important to you, then it's prudent to spend the few extra bucks. You get what you pay for.
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    Anyone notice CDRecordable.com is no more?
    I don't have a bad attitude...
    Life has a bad attitude!
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