New meritline 2x DVD-R!!!

[bleeky99]

The new discs actually burn at 2x! It plays fine in my standalone too, but my ps2 wont recognize it like the 1x meritline. I've been using the theory that "if it works in the ps2 then it will work in anything". But I'm hoping its not the case with these new discs. Can somebody give me some feedback on how playback is in their standalones and ps2's.

[RAAGAAman]

Who actually makes the media? Have you tried the media Identify tool?

http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91093

RG

[bleeky99]

cant seem to get that utility to run. getting a "ASPI Command Return: SenseKey 05h; ASC 24h; ASCQ 00h" error message. anyone else got these dvd's yet?

[SLK001]

I asked the people at Meritline who made their 2X disks and got this message back:

Dear Steve:
Thanks for your shopping with us. The "true 2x" DVD-R disks are just
manufactured by Meritline itself.

Best Regards,
-Meritline.com

I am skeptical that Meritline has its own manufacturing facitities, so I wonder if this is the same "ploy" that CDRECORDABLE.COM used (ie, say that they manufacturer the disks, but really only "contract" the manufacturing).

[dltf90]

Just like with cdr media, there are a select few dvd media manufactures. Most companies selling media are "VAR's" (Value Added Resellers) and not "OEM's" (Original Equipment Manufacturers). Neither Meritline nor CDRecordables are large enough to be an OEM, it is just too expensive to be that low volume. Example, Pioneer is an OEM where as Apple is a VAR.

Right now there are technically only 3 media manufacturers in Japan. Taiyo Yuden, Mitsui and Pioneer. The latter concentrates mainly on dvd media but the other two are primarily concerned with cdr media. If you see media with the markings "Made in Japan", it is made by one of the three. So even if the packaging says "Fuji", it is actually remarked Taiyo Yuden media. Same thing goes for the Taiwanese manufacturers Ritek, Seatram, and CMC. If the media says made in Taiwan, it is actually made by one of the three even if the media says "3M" or "Maxell". Except they use very poor quality dyes.

All three Japanese manufactures use high quality or grade A dyes as verified by accelerated aging tests to measure media error rates. Since I've traded cdrs for about 7 years, I have a lot of very old discs and let me tell you that quality matters. I've yet to have a Japanese disc of that age refuse to copy or play but I've had numerous Taiwanese discs bite the big one, some in as little as 6 months!

So if you care anything about what you are copying or producing (as in my case), take care to put your hard work on high quality media. The cheaper stuff has its place for temporary data backups and cheap gifts to friends and relatives, but not for something you've put a lot of hardwork and time into.

[byrdmaniac69]

I bought 3 of them and burned all 3 at 2X using nero 5.5.7.8 and dvr-103 ver 1.65. I did not author one disc correctly but it plays the intro ok(MY FAULT). The other 2 play fine on a pioneer dv-440. I put over 4 gigs on each one and reviewed the end especially close since they look like they are made by the same co that makes the purple pioneer look alikes, and we know how those get blocky after about 3 gigs or so. Other than being pink they seem to be fine. I bought them at supermediastore.com which has 10 for 30.80- a dime break for each one.

[DigitalGreg]

Right now there are technically only 3 media manufacturers in Japan. Taiyo Yuden, Mitsui and Pioneer. The latter concentrates mainly on dvd media but the other two are primarily concerned with cdr media. If you see media with the markings "Made in Japan", it is made by one of the three. So even if the packaging says "Fuji", it is actually remarked Taiyo Yuden media. Same thing goes for the Taiwanese manufacturers Ritek, Seatram, and CMC. If the media says made in Taiwan, it is actually made by one of the three even if the media says "3M" or "Maxell". Except they use very poor quality dyes.

Are you of the opinion that any of the japanese makes are good? I can't get TDK 2x to play in my PS2.

What in your opinion is the cheapest source of "good" dvd's?

[leebo]

dltf90, I'm confused.

First you say that Tiwanise discs are made by the same three Japaneese manufactures. Then you say they use cheaper dyes.
Why would they do that?

Since you give no proof, I have to believe this is simply your opinion.

[dltf90]

Are you of the opinion that any of the japanese makes are good? I can't get TDK 2x to play in my PS2.

What in your opinion is the cheapest source of "good" dvd's?

Do the TDK's say "Made in Japan" on the packaging? That is what really matters. See back in the day TDK Certified Plus cdr media was made in Georgia. They then closed that facility and used Ritek (Taiwanese) using the same Certified Plus moniker. Problem is TDK's Georgia factory used a Grade A die with a very deep blue color. Now the media was coming out with a platinum light blue color. But the dye used by Ritek is Grade C quality. Many users got pissed off at TDK for this bait and switch. Incidentally if you look closely you can still find some "Made in Japan" TDK's that were manufactured by Taiyo Yuden. These are prevalent in Europe.

Now for the grain of salt. Most media resellers source from multiple manufacturers in order to meet demand. For instance Sony has Taiyo Yuden (Japenese Grade A), Mitsubishi Chemicals (Taiwnese Grade B), and Ritek (Taiwanese Grade C). The former is fairly rare, the middle is extremely rare, and the latter is the most prevelant.

My only worry is that Pioneer will eventually augment their production output with remarked media from Taiwan, until I can see the packagin, I can't tell. This makes ordering their media a little hit and miss. Remember Apple used to exclusively sell remarked Pioneer media, but people have noticed lately that the media is changing to something lower quality. I don't know if Apple is outsource to another manufacturer or that Pioneer is doing that and passing it along to Apple. Either way, might be a reason for concern. According to http://www.pricewatch.com the cheapest Pioneer are here: http://www.ectny.com/store/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=E&Product_Code=DVS-R47A%2FU

The only two companies / resellers that only make their own media and never outsource are Mitsui and Taiyo Yuden. The former has been making dvd media for a while now, the latter is just now ramping up. These are the brands used by audio professionals because of their highest quality and media longevity. All my live music video productions will be produced and archived to Mitsui. I've worked too damned hard on these to see the disc become unreadable or uncopyable after a few months / years. After all, a 1982 live Van Halen show doesn't come along every day, ya know! Cheapest Mitsui: http://store.yahoo.com/cdrdvdrmedia/mit47golgenp.html

So in the end ask how important longevity and quality are and use the media appropriate to the task at hand. For archiving, don't skimp on the cheap stuff. For those more concerned with the piracy of videos, the cheap stuff makes sense given the lower quality of the video.

[DigitalGreg]

(please delete)

[DigitalGreg]

dltf90, I'm confused.

First you say that Tiwanise discs are made by the same three Japaneese manufactures. Then you say they use cheaper dyes.
Why would they do that?

Since you give no proof, I have to believe this is simply your opinion.

I read that to mean that the Japanese manufacturers make good quality discs, and the taiwanese manufacturers (separate companies unrelated to japanese companies) have a poorer dye process.

[DigitalGreg]

Do the TDK's say "Made in Japan" on the packaging? That is what really
My only worry is that Pioneer will eventually augment their production output with remarked media from Taiwan, until I can see the packagin, I can't tell. This makes ordering their media a little hit and miss. Remember Apple used to exclusively sell remarked Pioneer media, but people have noticed lately that the media is changing to something lower quality. I don't know if Apple is outsource to another manufacturer or that Pioneer is doing that and passing it along to Apple. Either way, might be a reason for concern. According to http://www.pricewatch.com the cheapest Pioneer are here: http://www.ectny.com/store/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=E&Product_Code=DVS-R47A%2FU



The only two companies / resellers that only make their own media and never outsource are Mitsui and Taiyo Yuden. The former has been making dvd media for a while now, the latter is just now ramping up. These are the brands used by audio professionals because of their highest quality and media longevity. All my live music video productions will be produced and archived to Mitsui. I've worked too damned hard on these to see the disc become unreadable or uncopyable after a few months / years. After all, a 1982 live Van Halen show doesn't come along every day, ya know! Cheapest Mitsui: http://store.yahoo.com/cdrdvdrmedia/mit47golgenp.html

I found much better prices on Mitsui, unbranded or white inkjet:

http://www.discmakers.com/rom/product_pages/blankdvdr.html

http://store.yahoo.com/cdrsavings/mitdv47genpu8.html

Can someone tell me, is there a difference between "mitsui silver" and "mitsui gold"? Are both equally suitable for a) labels and b) black inkjet printing?

4 bucks each for pioneer? that must be 1x not 2x right?

I have yet to find one source of Taiyo Yuden DVD, anyone have a link?

[DigitalGreg]

My only worry is that Pioneer will eventually augment their production output with remarked media from Taiwan, until I can see the packagin, I can't tell. This makes ordering their media a little hit and miss. Remember Apple used to exclusively sell remarked Pioneer media, but people have noticed lately that the media is changing to something lower quality. I don't know if Apple is outsource to another manufacturer or that Pioneer is doing that and passing it along to Apple.

I just spoke to a guy at www.mediasupply.com who seemed to be in the know, and he insisted that apple had just switched to mitsui. I bought an apple 5-pack about a week ago from outpost.com and it says made in japan...

[dltf90]

dltf90, I'm confused.

First you say that Tiwanise discs are made by the same three Japaneese manufactures. Then you say they use cheaper dyes.
Why would they do that?

Since you give no proof, I have to believe this is simply your opinion.

Ok, I think you misunderstood what I am saying. Please note the difference between a VAR and an OEM. Just because Sony is a Japanese company, that doesn't mean their media is also Japanese. Since the CDr explosion a few years back most companies resell media made by the few dedicated manufacturers. Sony doesn't make their own media, they just go for the best price they can get as a distributor. They also have various quality / product lines. Kodak was another such company, but they also manufactured media too. The stuff they made themselves, the Ultima line, was a staple of live music traders everywhere. But the stuff that was made in Mexico was amongst the worst media ever made with the highest failure rate anyone had ever seen. These are but a few examples.

Yes, it is a little confusing, but contrary to your belief, I'm not pulling this out of my ass. There was a test run by a European computer magazine that used accelerated aging tests on media. The only "English" translation of that report that I've seen can be found here: http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_quality.shtml

Now mind you, that study was done a few years back in this case and some of the information on who makes media for who has changed considerably. Now, unlike a lot of people out there, I've been using cdr drives and media for close to 7 years now. I have some very old discs in my 1600 recording collection. So not only does my collection have a long timeline, it has a large sample size as well. I've found the results from that accelerated aging process to have been bourne out in my personal observations of my own collection. I've followed media quality for the last 5 years. It is kind of my secondary hobby.

My main point is that quality is not really related to burn speed, media color, brand label or some of the other slightly misguided ideas I've seen thrown about. Quality should first and formost be about longevity and compatibility. It is the dye and the manufacturer that matter, not the brand stamped on the label (hence the Taiwan / Japan thing). Media with a Grade A dye not only lasts longer, but is generally the most compatible media with players.

Quality should also be dependent on the application. Some applications of dvd-r/-rw/+r/+rw require longevity and others do not. You buy what is appropriate to the task. I'm just offering people a better way to think about what they are using. I'm a guy that believes in quality first, price second because in the long run it has saved me far more money than it has ever cost me.

[leebo]

OK. I see.
You're basically saying, if your recordings are important to you, stay with the three Japaneese manufacturers?

OTOH, I've had Pioneer media not play on my moms player, and had cheaper media that does play.

BTW, have you read the recordable DVD compatability test in this months DV Magazine.
Pretty interesting.

[DigitalGreg]

OK. I see.
You're basically saying, if your recordings are important to you, stay with the three Japaneese manufacturers?

OTOH, I've had Pioneer media not play on my moms player, and had cheaper media that does play.

BTW, have you read the recordable DVD compatability test in this months DV Magazine.
Pretty interesting.

Forgive me if I'm being redundant but similar threads are reporting suspicions that pioneer has opted for a cheaper media factory. And that would explain why apple has allegedly switched to mitsui for it's DVD's.

[leebo]

similar threads are reporting suspicions that pioneer has opted for a cheaper media factory

Well, DV magazine gave Pioneer media only about a 50% compatability rate.

[dltf90]

OK. I see.
You're basically saying, if your recordings are important to you, stay with the three Japaneese manufacturers?

Essentially that is correct. While my main background is in audio remastering and archiving, the same general principles apply to dvd media as well. Now for video piracy (copying of buyable move releases), I'm sure the degradation caused by internet compression protocols would negate the use of high quality media. But if you are doing any original production work, you've probably put in enough time to be very pissed if the disc goes defective on you. I've had some audio recordings take me the better part of a week to finish and I'd kill something if the recording went bad on me

OTOH, I've had Pioneer media not play on my moms player, and had cheaper media that does play.

I've got a few DVD and CD players that just don't like certain media. Doesn't make the media bad, but it is something to take into consideration. My DJ cd player will not accept TDK blues or Taiyo Yudens if burned faster than 8x. But it will play all my Mitsui golds even if burned at 40x. Even the JVC DVD-a player I bought last month doesn't like some of my cdrs. This is where quality and compatibility show that they have little to do with each other.

BTW, have you read the recordable DVD compatability test in this months DV Magazine.
Pretty interesting.

I haven't seen it, but I am curious how they did it. I do hope they took the time to understand that brand name is meaningless and manufacturer of media is the more important. There are also a couple of other considerations worth noting. One, it often takes consumer hardware longer to catch up with computer hardware and generated media. This was the case for cdrs when they first came out. Now how many cdr incompatibilities do you see with players? Two, I wouldn't put it past some consumer player manufacturers to make their hardware "purposely" flaky when playing recordable formats. Remember, firms like Sony, Phillips, Pioneer and others not only make the computer creation hardware, they also make the consumer players and do original artist content (music and movies). It has often been noted that divisions of Sony square off against each other as the company on the whole has several different intellectual priority paths.

Gee, I sound kind of like a conspiracy theorist

[leebo]

I do hope they took the time to understand that brand name is meaningless and manufacturer of media is the more important.

Nope. But they did use unmarked discs and sent them to five testing facilities. The author was careful not to claim any one brand was better than any other.

He gave basic advice at the end to improve your chances of compatability.

[dltf90]

I just spoke to a guy at www.mediasupply.com who seemed to be in the know, and he insisted that apple had just switched to mitsui. I bought an apple 5-pack about a week ago from outpost.com and it says made in japan...

I doubt Apple switched to Mitsui as they are more expensive than Pioneer. Companies rarely switch to better (ie, more expensive) manufacturers. It is almost always the other way around. Remember the basic American consumerism is that only price is important. It's kind of sad so few people care about quality anymore. Ah, but I digress. The following discussion from DV.com should prove useful to many of us:

Topic: Anyone have trouble burning with apple dvd-r's recently - seem to be two dye colors available now??
stephenb71 posted 5/28/2002 03:50 PM PDT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HI,

Anyone have trouble burning with apple dvd-r's recently. There seem to be two different dye colors available at the moment and you won't know which one you've got until you open them up. I have purchased the ones in the white boxes and the ones in the newer, thicker, black & white boxes, and have encountered disc dye color differences in each. Each box seems to be "all" lighter colored dye discs or "all" darker dye discs (almost black)

The lighter color discs seem to give me more read problems, when playing media files (DIVX, MPG, AVI) burned onto the discs, with a DVD-ROM drive. I have had no problems with the darker colored media.

I saw another post that stated there are two different suppliers to Apple at the moment and that accounts for the differences in media. Anyone else encounter problems with the lighter colored Apple media.

Stephen


stephenb71 posted 5/28/2002 07:03 PM PDT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After looking back through the discs I have burned, it turns out that the discs with the lighter color dye are made in Singapore. The darker dye discs that give me no problems at all, are made in Japan. If you look on the bottom of the Apple DVD-R box, you can see where they were made before you buy them (this is the outside of the retail package) and avoid the Singapore ones (if you have any of the issues I have had).

It seems like the darker dye ones just seem to have better reflectivity than the lighter dye ones.

Anyone else seen this??

Stephen


CJCP2000 posted 5/28/2002 08:38 PM PDT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Funny situation,
I have checked on the box of the Apple DVD-R(it comes 5 in a box, isn't?) and effectively they are made in singapore, but lucky me I've never had any problems with it..I burn on a stand-alone Pana DMR-E20.Is the price of the Japanese ones the same as Singapore made? Do you buy them at a different outlet?.

[jackosh]

I have no problems with Apple DVD-R discs bought/made in S'pore so far. Using the media identify utility, I can see the discs are made by MCC which I believe is Mitsubishi Chemical Corpn. I have Verbatim DVD discs (also bought/made in S'pore) which are made by MCC and Verbatim is a subsidiary of MCC.

[Savant]

I see constant speculatoion about DVD media, but I haven't seen any proof that substanciates any of it.

Even the 'reviews' I have seen have yet to duplicate their results. Nothing is consistent, and everything seems to be based on assumption.

Right now tnothing is 'for sure', even the so called 'best' media. No one knows how long it will last or what it will work on. It's all trial and error.

Regards,

Savant

[bbb]

I've had 1 Mitsui cdr (made in Japan) go bad. This was probably my fault from washing the cdr in the sink, especially since the cdr shows some signs of oxidation.

I've had 0 Imation, Maxell, Verbatim, Office Depot cdr (not made in Japan) go bad. These are always kept in the cd case, sleave, or booklet.

In my experience, cdr media does not "go bad" if properly burned on a non-defective system (properly chained ide cables and clean Windows OS+burning software) and properly stored (not left out of the cd case or sleave for weeks/months, and not washed in water).

Cdr media has well matured and I doubt any manufacturer would remain in business (due to lack of sales and lawsuits) if they are producing sub-par cdr media. Generally problems arise due to personal hardware issues or lack of care with the cdr media.

However, DVD recordable media, still in it's infancy, may be more prone to such quality control issues.

[VidGuy]

Actually, I've had plenty of problems with CD-R media. Some of Fry's house brands (GQ, for instance) will commonly have data corruption errors that are bad enough that data disks won't verify.

While CD-R media may have matured, it's still caveat emptor out there - If you care about your data and are using cheaper disks, make sure you verify the original against the data before you kill the originals.

[leebo]

Next you'll want us to floss too!

[fand]

I purchased a 100 pack of their DVDPro brand, and it sucked. Bad.

I tried four random DVD-R's and none of them played without artifacting.

I returned them immediately.

-----

I then had a credit with them, so I purchased their Ritek brand (which is their own brand, sort of, so I was told).

Had no problems. Tested on PS2, AD-500W, AD-1200, Panasonic A110.

Here are a list of movies I've burned with them:

http://movies.fandelem.com

(link to where I purchased is on that site as well)

cheers,

kyle

[IonNuke]

I'd just like to add that you all should beware of buying super cheap priced DVD-R/CD-Rs.

Many Taiwanese manufacturing plants QC their discs. They passed discs are packaged and sold to main companies like Sony, TDK, Imation and Memorex. The other not so QC passed discs are then packaged up as cheapo no brand generic discs. Those have long term problems where data loss can occur after 2 or 3 years.

Just like to share that with people as I found when I visited Ritek of Taiwan this summer while I was there visiting my relatives. They say it's cheaper for the generic discs but many people use the generic discs for temporary backups and don't use them for long term discs.