DV Camcorders and Macrovision

[deb]

Hi,

I was considering getting a dv camcorder and wanted to know if most of the new ones are unable to ignore the Macrovision signal when capturing?

I read some old posts and they went both ways - some people had definite problems and others had none at all. Is it the newer cameras that detect the signal?

Thanks!
Deb

[resnullius]

you have to check the camera... unfortunatly i don't think anybody has made a list. sony i can tell you does block up if you try to pass a signal with macrovision.

[noname]

I was trying to put my Star Wars Special Ed. to VCD via DV camera, and it said copy inhibit. This is from a VHS, and I didnt know that a VHS had macrovision. I have an older camera (Sony DCR-TRV9). Is it possible to disable this or what?

[pl82]

DVDs, VCRs, and most Video Capture cards usse macrovision for copy protection. The odds are that the DV Cam with have it as well. If all else fails, buy a video stablizer and recorde it analogly.

[mbellot]

Most newer DV camcorders have circuitry designed to detect macrovision and disable recording. My Canon ZR40 does, in fact there are several pages in the manual describing the messages I will get if I try to copy "protected" material.

The problem I see is that since macrovision just messes with the video signal it is possible you would also have problems copying a degraded (unprotected) source. Obviously this is not a concern if your source material is DVD, but I am trying to convert several old VHS-C tapes to miniDV and the only player that plays them fine is the original camcorder that recorded them.

The real solution for macrovision is to defeat/disable it. Some people will recommend a signal "booster" box, but personally I prefer to be able to shut it off at the source.
Check here and around the web, chances are you will find a backdoor into your player that will let you disable macrovision. If not, then I would suggest you go out and buy a cheap DVD player that can be hacked. Typically the sub $100 models are the easiest, so the hacks are already available. Apex and Daewoo seem to be very prolific, I personally own a Daewoo 3000N. Its a simple, no frills player that does everything I want.

[EricB]

Well here are some ideas:
Most of the new material you would be interested in is on DVD. The best way to access that stuff is to rip the DVD, not record to the camcorder. Even older movies are constantly being released on DVD so no problem.

A bunch of VHS stuff just doesn't have Macrovision on it. So it is always worth just trying. In my case, my older Canon Hi8 camcorder has analog I/O that can be switched to line-in. It doesn't recognize Macrovision so I can record to the Hi8 tape, then put into the D8 camcorder and do an on the fly conversion.

Finally, Macrovision stabilizers that go inline can be purchased for <$50. So I would suggest you buy the best camera for your use and forget about Macrovision.

[Feuerwehr]

Macrovision is not the issue when trying to copy DVD's with a DV camcorder. Macrovision is easily defeated. Almost all DVD's in the U.S. also have at least one additional safeguard system to inhibit digital coping. CGMS/A is one of them, I believe there is at least one other. At any rate to the best of my knowlege all digital recording devices including DV cameras are affected, and will not record a protected DVD at all. Unfortunately there is no cheap and easy hardware solution. If you are willing to shell out $400 bucks. http://www.dvnation.com/dve.html claims to have a device that does the job. Naturally software solutions here on VCDhelp.com are much cheaper, but also a lot of work.
Have fun!
Jim

[deb]

Thanks to everyone for your replies.

Somehow I had gotten the idea that the camcorder was not affected by Macrovision - I think I saw a few posts and assumed it was pretty much across the board. Apparently it's not.

Actually, I wasn't so much thinking of copying DVDs, but I wanted to copy from my TIVO with DirecTV. I have some recordings that have been taking up space on it forever, but I love them. Many of these are hard to find, old movies and I would love to have copies. Then there is pay per view...

Anyone use TIVO?

Thanks again, the help is very appreciated.

[holistic]

Brush up on your Linux code - heheheh

http://home.earthlink.net/~garyw90/TivoApp.html


later ... enjoy the reading


The colors here are painful to the eyes

http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/tivo/index.cfm

[ChrisX]

Hi,

I was considering getting a dv camcorder and wanted to know if most of the new ones are unable to ignore the Macrovision signal when capturing?

Deb

I don't really know if the DV cam will ignore Macrovision. However I do know an old beta VCR, video 8 VCR and analog video cameras are not effected. My analog camera is Video 8 and Macrovision shouldn't be an issue there.

I successfully captured a DVD movie into the the Video 8 VCR without a problem. The same goes for using the computer with the video card for capturing, again no problem. Macrovision for me only effects VHS tape recording.

[vhelp]

deb, and others...

Macrovision IS enabled in all DV cams. Mine has it too.
* Canon ZR-10
What it does is shut's down the DV cam from recording.

One thing I notice, is that not all movies on VHS is MV'd.
ie, Superman I, the movie is NOT. I actually captured it to my
miniDV tape and, but another ie is TombRaider is.

But, to be quite honest with you all, I don't really bother much
w/ DV firewire anymore these days. I just use my ATW analog
capture card, since this guy seems to be MV resistant, he, he...
and my VHS captures are excellent, well, those that are done
transfered well for VHS are.

Oh, don't bother with those SIMA boxes. They don't work w/
DV cams, and problem not w/ DV bridge either, but they aren't
DV cams, but may have MV associated somehow, anyways.

-vhelp

[deb]

Thanks Holistic, CHGS and vhelp...

After reading the posts here and undr another topic, I think that the macrovision may not be a really big problem. I don't have a lot of commercial VHS tapes - certainly not since DVD's came out - really not too many. And DVD's can be ripped (at least I'm told they can be - I've haven't ripped yet).

My main objective for capture (other than home movies) is probably copying from TIVO.

Holistic, I have to say I looked at the two sites you posted and they were pretty horrifying, given my level of expertise. My mind was whirling just looking at it. (Please tell me I don't have to resort to linux!)

My idea was to locate the cables coming from my TIVO and going to the TV and unplug the TV end. Then plug it into the DV camcorder and record what was playing on TIVO. Will this work? Will there be Macrovision distortion? I was hoping not because I can record on my VHS with no problem (Panasonic RV-30).

Thanks again for everyone's input!

[alkieman]

Normal analogue Macrovision works by disturbing the sync pulses that analogue devices produce to enable other devices to lock on to the signal. Normal Macrovision doesn't work with digital outputs so different encryption and anti-copying methods are used. Macrovision are pushing for their newer digital copy protection system to be the industry standard but other companies are also pushing their own standards.

There are some digital devices which have digital copy protection built in but not analogue copy protection (some camcorders are like this).

The TIVO has an analogue Macrovision circuit built in but it is easily defeated by the use of an inexpensive external box. In the UK various companies will sell you a Bug Blaster type device that you plug in between the analogue outputs of the Tivo and the analogue inputs of your camcorder or capture card. It strips out the corrupt sync and replaces it with clean, internally generated sync pulses. The device generally costs around 50 UKP.

Incidently, the Tivo will only output a Macrovision protected signal if the original off air recording was Macrovision protected. Most off air recordings are not Macrovision protected otherwise your normal VCR wouldn't record them if you didn't have a Tivo. In the UK it's normally only the pay per view cable and Sky channels that are protected, the other film and entertainment channels do not generally carry Macrovision protected material.

[deb]

Thanks for the reply Alkieman.

I'm a little confused - are you saying that I may encounter some Macrovision type signals, but mostly not, at least for older programming? The de-bugging device from the UK - is there a similar US device or would the UK one work here?

If I read into your description of how to set up the debugging box, it sounds asthough my plan to just plut the outputs to the TV into my (future) camcorder will work . Have you actually tried this? I was hoping I could get a simple solution.

Thanks,
Deb

[alkieman]

Exactly Deb. Whether a broadcast signal, DVD, video tape or whatever carries a Macrovision signal is up to the broadcaster or copyright owner.

Many sell through VHS tapes carry no Macrovision signal, whereas 99.9 percent or rental tapes do and they are not all labelled as such.

In the case of bradcast TV, Cable or satellite the normal entertainement and movie channels usually carry no Macrovision signal. If they did you would not be able to record to your VCR or Tivo and you can imagine the outcry. When it comes to pay per view however it's a different story. In the UK Sky (the dominant satellite company) carries many pay per view movie channels which are Macrovision protected. The two big cable companies NTL and Telewest also carry Macrovision protected pay per view channels. But even more confusingly, they don't always have Macrovision turned on for these channels, it seems to be a bit hit and miss. I've noticed on some occasions I can record a pay per view movie, but on other occasions I cannot.

As a general rule of thumb free to air or pay channels included in your monthly satellite or cable subscription will normally be free of Macrovision so that you can timeshift with your VCR or Tivo. But those channels where you pay for each movie, sporting event etc individually probably will carry a Macrovision signal.

The Bug Blaster device is UK specific because of our different TV broadcast system and voltage requirements. There did used to be adverts for US versions in some magazines I saw when in the States, but you guys now have the Digital Millenium Copyright act to contend with. That act effectively makes it illegal for manufacturers to create devices capable of breaking encryption or copy protection systems so whether you can still buy those devices there I'm not sure of.

One of my friends had a Sony Digital8 camcorder which had analogue inputs. He could happily record any VHS tape to Digital8, or via his camcorder to his Firewire input on his PC. It seemed to ignore the Macrovision signal entirely. Unfortunately I don't know the model and my Panasonic DV cam doesn't have analogue inputs so I can't try it.

Unfortunately it is confusing but like I said, it's up to the film company/copyright holder and/or broadcaster whether Macrovision copy protection is included in their products or not.

[ironwood321]

What you have to do is remove the macro vision.

You either need a video signal conditioner for around £30 which will remove macro vision or spend around £300 on a TBC

[alkieman]

Deb,

Try this link:

http://www.dvnation.com/dve.html

That takes you to a device that will do what you want but at 399 USD it's expensive.

A cheaper version:
http://66.96.143.161/cgi-local/shop.pl/SID=1023231842.7899/page=product.html/product=33

Do a search online for video stabilizer rather than copy protection remover and you should find a number of sites selling them.

Good luck.

[deb]

Thanks for all the information. It sounds as though the same movie may have MV if it's a rental and may not if it's playing on HBO. If that's correct, then maybe it could be a matter of just finding an alternate source.

At this point, I think I may just wait and see how bad the problem is - it may not be that bad considering the kinds of things I want to capture.

In any case, I appreciate the information - thanks.