120 mins + 1 cd + DVD RES!!!!!!!

[baker]

Right,

IN the future when I get a dvd burner I think its safe ti assume that we will be well advanced in dvd writing as we have come in vcd and svcd burning and creating. Now a 2 cds mpeg 2 file with 48khz audio and a res of 720x576 is dvd compatible, no prob. BUT its the long gop structures thats causing the problem as most dvd authoring progiees refuse to load them and burn them. In the future would it be possible for nero or some other program to allow us to burn it as an xdvd? You know the long gop structures is only a minor thing, most dvd players that support svcd would most likely ignore this.

So if you are like myself and want future compatiblity I recommend :

downloading kwags excellent templet,
changing the encoding to mpeg2,
change the audio to 48khz,

and in the future hope that people will have found a way to way to patch author progiees to allow for the long gop structures.

Anybody agree with me?

Also kwag i think you should have this templet on your site as a lot of peop[le are asking for future compatibility.

also what changes will there be ion the alpha version of the templet?

Baker

[kwag]

Right,

IN the future when I get a dvd burner I think its safe ti assume that we will be well advanced in dvd writing as we have come in vcd and svcd burning and creating. Now a 2 cds mpeg 2 file with 48khz audio and a res of 720x576 is dvd compatible, no prob. BUT its the long gop structures thats causing the problem as most dvd authoring progiees refuse to load them and burn them. In the future would it be possible for nero or some other program to allow us to burn it as an xdvd? You know the long gop structures is only a minor thing, most dvd players that support svcd would most likely ignore this.

So if you are like myself and want future compatiblity I recommend :

downloading kwags excellent templet,
changing the encoding to mpeg2,
change the audio to 48khz,

and in the future hope that people will have found a way to way to patch author progiees to allow for the long gop structures.

Anybody agree with me?

Also kwag i think you should have this templet on your site as a lot of peop[le are asking for future compatibility.

also what changes will there be ion the alpha version of the templet?

Baker

Hi Baker:

The only change I've made to the Beta template is the MAX bitrate.
From 2,000Kbps to 2,300Kbps.
This solves most of the "blocks effect" on high speed scenes.
I'm very happy with the quality of the template as it is.
That's for the single CD.
There will be 2 templates posted, so that everyone is happy
The KVCDx2 120 Minute for 1-CD and the KVCDx2 120 minute for 2 CD's with near DVD quality.

Tonight I'm taking the "Beta" name off the template, because just about everyone is happy with the 1 CD results.


Later!,
kwag

[baker]

There will be 2 templates posted, so that everyone is happy
The KVCDx2 120 Minute for 1-CD and the KVCDx2 240 minute for 2 CD's

Tonight I'm taking the "Beta" name off the template, because just about everyone is happy with the 1 CD results.
I'll also post the 2 CD ( 240 minute ) template as Beta.
I need more encodes and feedback from many people to get final parameters and values for the 2 CD template.

Uh kwag,240 min templet for 2cds, (1cd 120 mins+ 1cd 120mins=240mins 2cds!!!)whats the difference between the templet availible at the minuit and the ither one? Both fit 120mins per cd!!!!

Also if you are looking for more feed back for the 2 cd templet will you make it mpeg 2 48khz audio plz!!!

Baker

[homerpez]

I'm not a newbie, but I am when it comes to tweaking THIS...

Unfortunately, I can't seem to find anything on that site I can read (I'm German, but not THAT German).

Also, to those who have used this... do you suppose it would have the same effect with a "normal" SVCD? (that is, 480x480 res)

I've already done 90 and 100-minute SVCD's on 1 CD, but there's always room for improvement..

How about if it's encoding with CCE instead of TMPGEnc?

Is it just changing GOP numbers or what?...

[Kdiddy]

IN the future when I get a dvd burner I think its safe ti assume that we will be well advanced in dvd writing as we have come in vcd and svcd burning and creating. Now a 2 cds mpeg 2 file with 48khz audio and a res of 720x576 is dvd compatible, no prob. BUT its the long gop structures thats causing the problem as most dvd authoring progiees refuse to load them and burn them. In the future would it be possible for nero or some other program to allow us to burn it as an xdvd? You know the long gop structures is only a minor thing, most dvd players that support svcd would most likely ignore this.

I would suggest using DVD Wise. It takes aabout any mpeg thrown at it. What you can do now however, is use BBMPEG to make/mux your VOB file. Yes, BBmpeg will take an AC3 & mpeg2/1 video and make a valid .vob file. You can then import this vob file into DVD wise, and author your title set around it. Then use Nero in UDF/ISSO960 Bridge mode to author to disk. I use to do it all the time for miniDVDs. If you, you can upload a sample of your mpeg video to my FTP and I'll do it. PPM me if you choose to do this. And I'll shoot you the FTP info.

[kwag]

There will be 2 templates posted, so that everyone is happy
The KVCDx2 120 Minute for 1-CD and the KVCDx2 240 minute for 2 CD's

Tonight I'm taking the "Beta" name off the template, because just about everyone is happy with the 1 CD results.
I'll also post the 2 CD ( 240 minute ) template as Beta.
I need more encodes and feedback from many people to get final parameters and values for the 2 CD template.

Uh kwag,240 min templet for 2cds, (1cd 120 mins+ 1cd 120mins=240mins 2cds!!!)whats the difference between the templet availible at the minuit and the ither one? Both fit 120mins per cd!!!!

Also if you are looking for more feed back for the 2 cd templet will you make it mpeg 2 48khz audio plz!!!

Baker

The templates are posted Baker! http://www.kvcd.net ( left panel )
Check the kvcdx2 intro mpeg 8) It's cool.

The changes from 1CD to 2CD is just an increase of CQ from 50 to 70. All other parameters are left the same. If you want to make it mpeg-2 at 48Khz, go ahead!, just change the encoding in the template to MPEG-2 and the audio to 48Khz. That's it!.

@Kdiddy

How do you get a VOB with BBMPEG? Every multiplexing option I have tried only produces an mpeg file. A vob is not the same as an mpeg file.
How's that? I tried, but can't find a way to do a VOB with BBMPEG.
If this is true, then probably we can "trick" authoring programs to burn the VOB's, and then it will be just a matter of seeing if it will play in standard DVD players with the long GOP.

I'll stay tuned...

kwag

[cybermage26]

KWAG,

I have followed your progress from the very beginning, youve come along way ... what I am curious to know with the new structure etc used in KVCDx2 what happens if you were to use it and drop resolution down to 352x240 ??? Would it result in an extremely small mpg file or what? Anyway, thats just something I would like to see happen myself.

Thanks.

[kwag]

KWAG,

I have followed your progress from the very beginning, youve come along way ... what I am curious to know with the new structure etc used in KVCDx2 what happens if you were to use it and drop resolution down to 352x240 ??? Would it result in an extremely small mpg file or what? Anyway, thats just something I would like to see happen myself.

Thanks.

Hi cybermage26:

If you were to drop down to 352x240 with the KVCDx2, it would look crappy!.
That's because the CQ doesn't work the same at all resolutions, and a CQ of 50 ( as in the KVCDx2 ) is really bad at 352x240.
You would have to increase the CQ to at least 80 to get the same video stability ( not quality ).

kwag

[Kdiddy]

How do you get a VOB with BBMPEG? Every multiplexing option I have tried only produces an mpeg file. A vob is not the same as an mpeg file. How's that? I tried, but can't find a way to do a VOB with BBMPEG.

Kwag, please do not insult my intelligence by insuating that I would confuse a VOB file with a MPG file. Especially when I wrote to mux "a AC3 with mpeg2/1 video to get a VOB". As far as saving as a VOB with BBmpeg, its very simple. Under theInput/Output Files tab, there is a tab named Open PS. This tab is used for naming you final muxed mpeg stream. Click it, under is the typical standard windows option of Save As Type, by using the down arrow in the far right of this box, you will be able to bring up the Video Objects Unit, *.vob

Question for KWAG

I tried your templace yesterday but was very surprised to see the audio settings 112K Dual Channel !!!

The sound must be crap?or people using this template must be deaf.

I would never go down this low with the audio bitrate but if I did,would it not be better to use Joint Stereo?? You may lose some of the stereo seperation but it would make better use of the bitrate......

from doom.......

Stereo
In this mode, the encoder makes no use of potentially existing correlations between the two input channels. It can, however, negotiate the bit demand between both channel, i.e. give one channel more bits if the other contains silence or needs less bits because of a lower complexity.

Dual channel
In this mode, the 2 channels will be totally independently encoded. Each channel will have exactly half of the bitrate. This mode is designed for applications like dual languages encoding (ex: English in one channel an French in the other). Using this encoding mode for regular stereo files will result in a lower quality encoding.

Joint stereo
In this mode, the encoder will make use of a correlation between both channels in order to achieve higher compression. This will enhance the quality of constant bitrate recordings, and reduce the size of variable bitrate recordings.

[smokingweed3000]

kwag, could u recommend a good GOP for mpeg2, here r the settings that i have now ( i took your new 2cd template and changed a couple of things):
mpeg2
704*480
4:3
29.97fps
CQ85 max-2300, min-700
interlace
DC-10
high quality
my current GOP is the one u had but people have said that its not comptaible with DVD so i wanted to know if u could come up with a new for DVD?
Thanks a lot

[kwag]

Question for KWAG

I tried your templace yesterday but was very surprised to see the audio settings 112K Dual Channel !!!

The sound must be crap?or people using this template must be deaf.

I would never go down this low with the audio bitrate but if I did,would it not be better to use Joint Stereo?? You may lose some of the stereo seperation but it would make better use of the bitrate......

from doom.......

Stereo
In this mode, the encoder makes no use of potentially existing correlations between the two input channels. It can, however, negotiate the bit demand between both channel, i.e. give one channel more bits if the other contains silence or needs less bits because of a lower complexity.

Dual channel
In this mode, the 2 channels will be totally independently encoded. Each channel will have exactly half of the bitrate. This mode is designed for applications like dual languages encoding (ex: English in one channel an French in the other). Using this encoding mode for regular stereo files will result in a lower quality encoding.

Joint stereo
In this mode, the encoder will make use of a correlation between both channels in order to achieve higher compression. This will enhance the quality of constant bitrate recordings, and reduce the size of variable bitrate recordings.

112k Dual channel
Where did you get the 112? All the templates have 128k as default.
I changed to Dual Channel because it's the best format for surround sound. If you use Joint Stereo, you'll loose dolby surround.

kwag

[kwag]

kwag, could u recommend a good GOP for mpeg2, here r the settings that i have now ( i took your new 2cd template and changed a couple of things):
mpeg2
704*480
4:3
29.97fps
CQ85 max-2300, min-700
interlace
DC-10
high quality
my current GOP is the one u had but people have said that its not comptaible with DVD so i wanted to know if u could come up with a new for DVD?
Thanks a lot

Sorry, but I can't! DVD specs are very strict, with a fixed number of frames per GOP.
I still have to try Kdiddy's suggestion, on doing a VOB with BBMPEG.
If that works with some authoring programs, great!, but after reading the DVD specifications, I believe it will be a waste of time because most standalone DVD players follow the rigid specs too.
So the compatibility will be worse that (XYZ)VCD's.

The best you can do, if you want MPEG-2, is to use the template and encode as MPEG-2, and burn your SVCD's.
But for DVD compatibility, forget about using the compression gained with the KVCD GOP and the "Andreas einfache 99er Matrix" as that's the correct name for the Q. Matrix.

kwag

[kwag]

There will be 2 templates posted, so that everyone is happy
The KVCDx2 120 Minute for 1-CD and the KVCDx2 240 minute for 2 CD's

Tonight I'm taking the "Beta" name off the template, because just about everyone is happy with the 1 CD results.
I'll also post the 2 CD ( 240 minute ) template as Beta.
I need more encodes and feedback from many people to get final parameters and values for the 2 CD template.

Uh kwag,240 min templet for 2cds, (1cd 120 mins+ 1cd 120mins=240mins 2cds!!!)whats the difference between the templet availible at the minuit and the ither one? Both fit 120mins per cd!!!!

Also if you are looking for more feed back for the 2 cd templet will you make it mpeg 2 48khz audio plz!!!

Baker

That's what I call the 240 minute screwup!!
Sorry all , but that's what happens when coding at 4:00AM

The templates are one to fit up to 120 minutes in one CD, and another to fit ALSO 120 minutes in TWO cd's at near DVD quality.

The 240 minutes in 2 CD's would be with the ONE CD template.

I fixed the description at kvcd.net.
( Wonder what I would have wrote if I had drinked a couple of beers )

kwag

[El_Mero_Zooter]

vhelp,,
so in response to your response to my response.
are u saying that in your encodes, using say, kvcd 1.0 or kvcdPlus, at 352x480, resolution, the audio does NOT skip/stutter ?
cuz when i tried it on mine it does skip, sometimes it gets off synch, and back on synch. If i lower it down to 352x240, the audio doesnt skip.
The whole issue, now is, with the new template, kvcdPLUS PLUs, or the 704x480 one, the audio is back to skipping. I'll playaround with the gop's, doubt that would help a lot, but rather the vfv buffer setting have to be tweaked somewhat to avoid the skipping on the 1500, and some other apex's too.

ztr

[homerpez]

The best you can do, if you want MPEG-2, is to use the template and encode as MPEG-2, and burn your SVCD's.
But for DVD compatibility, forget about using the compression gained with the KVCD GOP and the "Andreas einfache 99er Matrix" as that's the correct name for the Q. Matrix.

This is confusing (or is it just me)?

Does this basically mean that this GOP structure is totally INCOMPATABLE with SVCD, or is it totally COMPATABLE?

I really care nothing about DVD compatability, just wanna know if the GOP changes and matrix (whatnot) can be used in CCE, for use on an SVCD encoding, and still play on units which play SVCD's...

if possible?

[Plant_Guy]

Hello,

Over the weekend, I used kwag's template for VCD's, and got the following results: Input-> captured HBO's Sept. 11th tribute, one hour at 352x240, MPEG1@5760k, 224k audio, approx. 3GB file. Ran it through the template and got a file that was 850MB in size, but much better quality than the VCD template. Note, I did not go to 128K with the sound b/c it is really lousy with TMPGEnc. I must say, though, that I have not found a satisfactory noise reduction mechanism, damn that cable signal . The things that make the templates work are: 1) Letterboxed movies ~30% less data, maybe?, and 2) 24fps instead of 30 (yes, I rounded off) is another 20% less data! So yes, much more video should fit given these advantages. For my purposes of recording shows on TV where inverse telecining just turns the video to s***, and the video is not letterboxed, these templates are just a way to get much better video at somewhat larger file sizes than standard VCD. Am I wrong in my findings? Cheers.

TomG. - aka Plant_Guy

[baker]

to kwag,

First off if bbmpeg will create a vob file that dvd wise will burn will you make a dvd compatible templet, (mpeg 2, 48khz audio) availible? A lot of people are asking for this.

Second off please change the audio from 128k thats way too low 160k is the miniumum you should be using and I do mean the minimum!

Third off why do you use 704x576 for the pal templet insted of the correct 720x576?

Does the templet actually work well with mpeg 2? My dvd-rom is down at the miniuit and I am fioghting with crappy samsung so unntil then I can't do any tests!

Baker

[kwag]

to kwag,

First off if bbmpeg will create a vob file that dvd wise will burn will you make a dvd compatible templet, (mpeg 2, 48khz audio) availible? A lot of people are asking for this.

Second off please change the audio from 128k thats way too low 160k is the miniumum you should be using and I do mean the minimum!

Third off why do you use 704x576 for the pal templet insted of the correct 720x576?

Does the templet actually work well with mpeg 2? My dvd-rom is down at the miniuit and I am fioghting with crappy samsung so unntil then I can't do any tests!

Baker

Baker,

Take the standard DVD template included in TMPEG, load it up, change the GOP and the matrix parameters from the current KVCDx2 template, and save it as KDVD 8) How's that?

As far as the audio, 128Kbps was chosen, for the purpose of having a reasonable audio in the movie and save space.
If you want higher quality, just increase the audio bit rate.

720x576 is not a MPEG-1 VCD still resolution. That's a full D1 resolution.
VCD standard calls for 352x240(288) mpeg video or 704x480(576) mpeg stills.
Many DVD players wont play MPEG-1 720x480(576), but will play 704x480(576) because they HAVE to play a still 704x480(576) mpeg. It's in the specs.

Yes, the template works with MPEG-2. I've had reports of people using it. But not on DVD's.

And yes, I would love to have MPEG-2 with the compression that I'm getting in the KVCDx2 template, working in a DVD.
But that has to be tested.
I have a DVD burner, so I will encode a movie later tonight as MPEG-2 with the template, and let's see if the VOB produced by BBMPEG can be burned.
I don't have DVD Wise. But I'll figure something out. Maybe Ifoedit will create the .ifo from the VOB, and then I can just burn it with Nero.

kwag

[baker]

KDVD huh, well thats not really a suitible name since dvd refers to the disk and for the time being at least it will be on a cd.

Just my 2 cents

How about kvd, kwag video disk?

Apart from that will you have this templet on your site as a lot of my contacts want it but want the future compatibility and it would be nice to just have to give a link.

Thanks a lot kwag, you have been a great help to keeping me sane!

Baker

[Kdiddy]

mpeg2 doesnt have to be used to comply with DVD standards. The spec does allow for mpeg1 at 352x480/240 resolutions. Unless you guys just want to use mpeg1?

[Kdiddy]

Ok just ran a quick test on your Bugs life sample. DVD Wise didnt like the video file because DVD wise claims its not of chroma "4:2:0"...while bitrate viewer says it is. Im not sure which app to believe, but in my experience using DVD wise, I have never had this problem out of it b4 while I have had misreadings from bitrate viewer b4. I did not try use IFOedit on the vob file by itself, and then burn with Nero. Myabe Ill do that later when I have time.

[kwag]

@Kiddy
DVD standard accepts MPEG-1 only as 352x240(288). Not 352x480.
I wish 352x480 was included, as it would be an alternative to MPEG-2 on DVD, and I would have already put the MPEG-1 352x480 template on a DVD.
@---end---

Here's what I've tried so far.

Encoded 6 minutes and 35 seconds of "The Matrix" with the GOP 1-18-3-1 and the Quantization matrix that's inside the current kvcdx2 template.

The result is a beautiful file of 140MB with full DVD quality.
I used MAX bit rate of 5,000Kbps and CQ=60 for test purposes. So the GOP and matrix are creating a good compression.

Here's the bad news:

I de-muxed the file to video an audio parts. Then I ran BBMPEG to produce the VOB as program stream ~DVD ( the option in BBMPEG )
The VOB is not accepted by IfoEdit.

I also tried to open the muxed files .m2v and mp2 to create the VOB with Quick Builder(demo) and it crashes every time.
Apparently it doesn't like the GOP.

I tried to open the mpeg with NeoDVD, and it just re-encodes the mpeg file to create a VOB. So it recognizes that the mpeg is not a DVD compliant. The resulting mpeg from NeoDVD is trash quality.

That's as far as I got today. Maybe I'll play some more later.

kwag

[Kdiddy]

You are correct, 352x480 can only be used with mpeg2. I suspect your adjusted GOP structure is where most of problem will be. The is one extremly long way around the problem, that for all accounts wouldnt probably be worth the effort, that may work. I will test that later on this evening.

[homerpez]

I'm lost as far as my question goes... I'll just have to try it and see...

I hate that "trial and error" business...

I think someone's confusion about what does and doesn't make a "compliant" DVD is going to tangle some of us up for a while...

Meanwhile, I'll see if there's any benefit to this in SVCD...

[kwag]

Sad news ( again )
DVDit PE won't create a DVD folder or burn the DVD.
It reads the mpeg file, de-muxes it, and re-muxes it.
Then you get a popup screen that says:
"Too many pictures in GOP"
Just what I thought.

The search continues.....

kwag

[vhelp]

evening all.

hmmmm...
How about doing this, to narrow it down.
* create your standard DVD ( .vob ) file via DVDit or
bbMPEG, and make your DVD via your dvd burner.

If that works, then start changing one thing at a time, ie:
* change your GOP, to say, 15NTS, 18PAL, then burn to compliant DVD
* or, just try the new Matrix settings, but w/ all else
as standard DVD and see if that works, if it does, then
you're that much closer!
* etc., etc., etc.

When I'm at a stump, I usually start with a working standard,
and THEN, work backwards (i think that's how it goes) but
maybe this will help.

Let us know if this work kdiddy and kwag and others trying this
out w/your DVD burners.

evening all.
-vhelp

[kwag]

We'll I did it!, but the result is bad bad bad.

I took the VOB that I had muxed with BBMPEG, and there's an option on Quick Builder that let's you open a VOB file.

It created the VIDEO_TS folder with the .ifo's, bup's and vob.
I burned a DVD-R with NeoDVD ( hasn't failed on me once! ) and the complete DVD structure is there.

I put it in my Panasonic DVD-L10 portable. Stays in "Read".
I tried it in my JVC 7 disk multichanger. The picture appeared!, it started playing!, for 2 seconds and it froze.
Tried it in my Panasonic RP-56. Stays in "Read". Had to pull the power cord in order to power it up again.! It froze and I couldn't eject the DVD.

So the story is:
DVD players follow a very strict and fixed GOP.
We're all screwed 8) .

Unless the VOB muxing in BBMPEG is buggy. But I don't think so, because I looked at the VOB in the VIDEO_TS folder with bit rate viewer, and it looks correct. ( But with long GOP's )

kwag

[Kdiddy]

Yes, I did iy my long way around got the same results on my player GE1101P, its definitely the GOP structure.

[kwag]

I guess someone thought about the future of DVD's when designing the specs and didn't want us to put all our (XYZ)VCD's in a DVD

kwag