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  1. Swollen Member
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    Originally Posted by john1290
    +R will work in >all future set top and DVDROM players< period, FACT, BAM! BOOM! PERIOD! FACT! PERIOD!!!!!
    That is incorrect. +R will enjoy good compatibility, but it will not work in all future set top DVD players or DVD-ROM drives. Part of the reason may be related to some of the DVD Forum members playing hardball, but nonetheless the effect is the same.
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  2. >all future set top and DVDROM players< period, FACT, BAM! BOOM! PERIOD! FACT! PERIOD!!!!!
    And you know this because...?

    Have you been reading the other posts here? The facts (and article links to support them) can all be found within them.

    Your posts are now bordering on crazed hysteria.


    Kusanagi
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  3. *bump*

    Since lost while posting during the server downtime experienced yesterday...


    Kusanagi
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  4. Originally Posted by Eug
    Originally Posted by john1290
    +R will work in >all future set top and DVDROM players< period, FACT, BAM! BOOM! PERIOD! FACT! PERIOD!!!!!
    That is incorrect. +R will enjoy good compatibility, but it will not work in all future set top DVD players or DVD-ROM drives. Part of the reason may be related to some of the DVD Forum members playing hardball, but nonetheless the effect is the same.
    I'm just using some -r supporter tactics which is making broad statements with no proof. Saying stuff like ...."+R works in 5% of all DVD players"............

    As for DVD makers playing hardball and engineering their future DVD players to NOT play +R media....this would be silly. The companies that make DVD players have to realize that +RW is here to stay and hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, will be buying +RW drives. Say they make a product that won't play +R media and company X makes a DVD player that will work with it........if I own a +RW drive at the time and need a DVD player....I'll go with company X. (Company X being Apex, JVC, SONY, whoever......) There are TONS of DVD set top players to pick from. How could the DVD forum require/demand makers of DVD players to block compatibility of +R media? I seriously doubt supporint +R media is THAT much more difficult than adding support for -r (and don't NOBODY start about any logo BS)......
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  5. I like the "USA Today" style above:

    Some DVD Players will refuse to play a disc if it doesn't recognise what it is. So a disc saying "Hi I am DVD-RW", may get one of several responses from the player, they might be, "Never heard of you, not even going to attempt to read you.” Nicer players may say, "Hi, I have never heard of you but will give you chance and try and play you." Newer players will say "Hi there DVD-RW, good to see you again, how's your kids, and lets get playing you."
    Hopefully the drives will be equally polite to +R/+RW. I would hate to see a DVD Forum blessed drive that said:

    "Get the heck out of here you non-standard abomination"
    Panasonic DMR-ES45VS, keep those discs a burnin'
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  6. Swollen Member
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    Originally Posted by john1290
    Originally Posted by Eug
    Originally Posted by john1290
    +R will work in >all future set top and DVDROM players< period, FACT, BAM! BOOM! PERIOD! FACT! PERIOD!!!!!
    That is incorrect. +R will enjoy good compatibility, but it will not work in all future set top DVD players or DVD-ROM drives. Part of the reason may be related to some of the DVD Forum members playing hardball, but nonetheless the effect is the same.
    I'm just using some -r supporter tactics which is making broad statements with no proof. Saying stuff like ...."+R works in 5% of all DVD players"............

    As for DVD makers playing hardball and engineering their future DVD players to NOT play +R media....this would be silly. The companies that make DVD players have to realize that +RW is here to stay and hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, will be buying +RW drives. Say they make a product that won't play +R media and company X makes a DVD player that will work with it........if I own a +RW drive at the time and need a DVD player....I'll go with company X. (Company X being Apex, JVC, SONY, whoever......) There are TONS of DVD set top players to pick from. How could the DVD forum require/demand makers of DVD players to block compatibility of +R media? I seriously doubt supporint +R media is THAT much more difficult than adding support for -r (and don't NOBODY start about any logo BS)......
    You may be partially right, but it's interesting to note that for instance the Pioneer DVD A04 (including the Apple SuperDrive) do not work with DVD+R, and companies like Panasonic and Toshiba in their specs don't bother to mention DVD+R. Now some of those Panasonic and Toshibas actually do work with DVD+R or +RW, but some of them don't consistently from what I've been told. And it's not in their interest to document DVD+R compatibility in those machines, so the only way to know is to buy one and test it. OTOH, some companies are actually marketing DVD-R playback right in the specs. Also, while companies like Sony (which supports DVD-RW in set top recorders and Vaio's, and DVD+RW in their OEM drives) have high penetration into the set top DVD player market, other large DVD+RW supporters like Ricoh and Philips do not, except for the set top DVD recorder market for the latter (where Panasonic still reigns).

    Apex is less relevant in a sense, because their players are crap. (I have one for all region support and Macrovision free, but nonetheless the build quality and image quality is poor.) So far JVC is neutral from what I gather, but they don't hold as much of the market as companies like Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, or Pioneer. There are tons of DVD players to pick from but one must remember that not all of them are good, especially when you're talking about the higher end progressive scan market.

    Now it would be nice for everyone to support everything, but you have to remember that these companies are in direct competition with each other. I would not be surprised at all to see the type of competitive practices I've mentioned above.

    As for me, ironically, my progressive scan Panasonic DVD player supports DVD-RAM, DVD-Video, DVD-Audio, DTS, DD 5.1, DVD-RW, DVD-R, DVD+RW, DVD+R, XVCD, VCD, MP3, CD-R, CD-RW, whereas my Apex is more picky about what it supports.

    So the bottom line is we don't know what the future holds, but it is jumping the gun to assume that everyone in the future is going to support DVD+RW and DVD+R (or even DVD-RW and DVD-R) when all these formats are in competition with each other. Hell, for all we know DVD-RAM may even take hold, considering the next wave of DVD is recordable DVD in set tops, and right now Panasonic (with DVD-RAM) holds about 2/3rds of that market. Indeed, my Panasonic DVD player doesn't advertise DVD-R or DVD+R compatibility. For DVD recordable it only advertises DVD-RAM? Why? Because they are pushing DVD-RAM and it is not in their best interest to advertise competing formats.
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  7. Eug Wrote
    You may be partially right, but it's interesting to note that for instance the Pioneer DVD A04 (including the Apple SuperDrive) do not work with DVD+R,
    Actually my testing has shown that the DVR-104/A04 will read DVD+R when the DVD+R/RW drive is set to write the disk is higher compatibilty mode. Which means that the A04 thinks the disk is a SL DVD ROM disk.

    RG
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  8. Swollen Member
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    Originally Posted by RAAGAAman
    Eug Wrote
    You may be partially right, but it's interesting to note that for instance the Pioneer DVD A04 (including the Apple SuperDrive) do not work with DVD+R,
    Actually my testing has shown that the DVR-104/A04 will read DVD+R when the DVD+R/RW drive is set to write the disk is higher compatibilty mode. Which means that the A04 thinks the disk is a SL DVD ROM disk.

    RG
    Thanks for the correction. Reviews out there say otherwise, but I stand corrected.
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  9. The reviews were done with the Ricoh drive (Not OEM Ricoh) and it is set at the lower compatibility setting.

    RG
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    DVD+R media has fallen under $3. It took about 10 weeks to drop from around $10 to $3.

    Even HP DVD+R media in jewel case costs as low as $3.4 now.

    The one reason why it is not $1 or even $0.5 is there has been virtually no competition yet.

    You can find $1 or $2 DVD-R and DVD-RW media ($1.3 for -RW) easily because there has been some serious competition among the gigantic media companies for a few months - I mean during the first half of year 2002 but not before.
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    The compatibility issue seems to matter so much because this is the very early phase for DVD writers.

    Soon, most DVD players and DVD-ROM readers will be compatible with both DVD+R and DVD-R media. Then, the scale and cost of volume production and the speed and features of writer drives will decide which manufacturer will have what percentage of market share. I don't think any one of the DVD writer manufacturers of today will have more than 10 percent of the total market share next year.
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    For anyone interested, here's a sample DVD-base MP3 Player from Napa, Taiwan, displayed at the COMPUTEX TAIPEI 2002. Just one more application for DVD recordable. Since practically all MP3-CD players are compatible with CD-RW, MP3-DVD players will also be compatible with DVD+MRW - with USB 2.0, one should be able to write to the portable players directly and randomly as one can write to HDD-based audio players.

    Photo courtesy of Kbench.com. For more complete coverage: http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=1651

    * EDITED * (just removed the image code)

    http://images.kbench.com:8080//kbench/article/2002_06/k13904p1n65.jpg
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  13. For anyone interested, here's a sample DVD-base MP3 Player from Napa, Taiwan, displayed at the COMPUTEX TAIPEI 2002.
    This has no relevance to the discussion at hand here. Either start a new thread or mods should move it to the Off-Topic Forum.

    Also, for the future, a link to the image may be better than filling the page with semi-large images - especially for our dial-up members.


    Kusanagi
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  14. Member
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    Originally Posted by Kusanagi
    For anyone interested, here's a sample DVD-base MP3 Player from Napa, Taiwan, displayed at the COMPUTEX TAIPEI 2002.
    This has no relevance to the discussion at hand here. Either start a new thread or mods should move it to the Off-Topic Forum.

    Also, for the future, a link to the image may be better than filling the page with semi-large images - especially for our dial-up members.


    Kusanagi
    It has a lot of relevance to the future of DVD recordable market. Guess why there are CF-based audio players and DataPlay-based audio players? There are even HDD-based and 80mm CD-based ones.

    That one was based on 80mm DVD discs. The ability to write up to 1,000 times randomly directly to portable audio players will just one more killer application for DVD recordable market especially for DVD+MRW.
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  15. It has a lot of relevance to the future of DVD recordable market
    No no! I mean this thread! Agghh, please read my post! How does your post on a DVD-base MP3 Player contribute to "Which type of DVD Writer should I buy?" ? It doesn't.

    The technology you mention does have relevance to DVD recordable technology, but not in this specific thread. Either start a new topic or move it to Off-Topic.

    Also, why are you hyping this "DVD+MRW(?)" when it is not even readily available yet? Hmm...this seems vaguely familar, as this 'hype' tactic was done with DVD+RW before its release...and we all know what happened (ie. low compatibility, bit-set problems, no +R, etc.)


    Kusanagi
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    No no! I mean this thread! Agghh, please read my post! How does your post on a DVD-base MP3 Player contribute to "Which type of DVD Writer should I buy?" ? It doesn't.

    The tecnology you mention does have relevance to DVD recordable technology, but not in this specific thread. Either start a new topic or move it to Off-Topic.
    I don't like to create a new thread when there are already existing ones. Though I have posted over 1,000 in DVDplusRW.org forum, there are less than 50 topic threads that I started myself.

    I posted it here only because I felt it has some relevance.

    Also, why are you hyping this "DVD+MRW(?)" when it is not even readily available yet? Hmm...this seems vaguely familar, as this 'hype' tactic was done with DVD+RW before its release...and we all know what happened (ie. low compatibility, bit-set problems, no +R, etc.)
    Who has said DVD+MRW drives are available now? Or, did I try to lie about it at all?

    Check out this thread: http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=1651 and here I have done everything I could find about the latest and upcoming Mt. Rainier and ODD products.

    What about low compatibility? Not compatible as DVD-RW or what? Considering DVD+RW has been on the market for much less period than DVD-RW, it is doing relatively well. I don't work in HP or Philips DVD+RW marketing team. I have some remote relationship with two large companies that manufacture DVD-RAM and DVD-RW drives. What relation has that DVD+R support issue with Mt. Rainier support? HP lies always about its products ranging from Itanium servers to ODD products to DeskJet printers or what? Mt. Rainier seems to work well already among the latest CD-RW drives from Yamaha, Teac, Mitsumi, and a few others. Sanyo, LG, Samsung, LiteOn, Asustek, BenQ, and every other major CD-RW drive manufacturers will produce CD-MRW drives soon. That means practically every one of nearly 50 million CD-RW drives that will be produced for the next one year will have Mt. Rainier. Exactly when the first Mt. Rainier capability in DVD+RW drives is not yet known. It's said October to November but just as Sanyo and Pioneer seem to tighten its release information, Ricoh and Philips seem to prefer to have all relevant information inside until the actual release.
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  17. Geez, you DVDplusRW.org guys never seem to quit. This is it from me, as I don't want to hijack this thread any longer.

    I have posted over 1,000 in DVDplusRW.org forum
    Well, whoopie...someone give him a cookie.

    I posted it here only because I felt it has some relevance.
    Well it doesn't. Perhaps in the Off-Topic Forum or in a new topic it would.

    Who has said DVD+MRW drives are available now? Or, did I try to lie about it at all?
    Your posts imply that this format is available and superior than anything else out now. When in truth, we won't see this DVD+MRW drive/format for a while.


    Kusanagi
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  18. Originally Posted by Kusanagi
    It has a lot of relevance to the future of DVD recordable market
    No no! I mean this thread! Agghh, please read my post! How does your post on a DVD-base MP3 Player contribute to "Which type of DVD Writer should I buy?" ? It doesn't.

    The technology you mention does have relevance to DVD recordable technology, but not in this specific thread. Either start a new topic or move it to Off-Topic.


    Kusanagi
    Buy a damn dvd burner already and get a life!
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    Originally Posted by Kusanagi
    Geez, you DVDplusRW.org guys never seem to quit. This is it from me, as I don't want to hijack this thread any longer.

    I have posted over 1,000 in DVDplusRW.org forum
    Well, whoopie...someone give him a cookie.

    I posted it here only because I felt it has some relevance.
    Well it doesn't. Perhaps in the Off-Topic Forum or in a new topic it would.

    Who has said DVD+MRW drives are available now? Or, did I try to lie about it at all?
    Your posts imply that this format is available and superior than anything else out now. When in truth, we won't see this DVD+MRW drive/format for a while.


    Kusanagi
    OK, I'll post a lot of detailed information on Mt. Rainier and DVD+RW products in the future if I'm going to post more on DVD+MRW. I guess I was not making it complete enough. And read it clearly. I said "future" DVD recordable market, not the present market. The very picture was from Computex Taipei 2002 and expositions like that deal with the coming products rather than the ones available already on the market.

    The one who has been bashing DVD+RW and DVDplusRW.org was you Kusanagi and the very first threads I posted in DVDplusRW.org was about whether someone knew about the promised LG-Hitachi DVD Multi drive since I was more interested in LG than Philips or Ricoh.
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    How about the supporters of each format all get together and have a fight.
    Then we'll all go and by burners of the format that wins
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    Originally Posted by Scobo
    How about the supporters of each format all get together and have a fight.
    Then we'll all go and by burners of the format that wins
    Most posters don't even reveal their email or messenger accounts. Who will come to see other people at all???
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    I removed the image code. Click the following link to see the picture: http://images.kbench.com:8080//kbench/article/2002_06/k13904p1n65.jpg
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  23. @ Kennyshin: I have to agree with Kusanagi with making relevant posts. Your post in this thread was simply not relevant (portable DVD MP3 players).

    @ all:

    As for DVD+/-R/W, try to keep to the facts.

    Small tests by independent reviewers showing good compatibility with DVD+R is promising and generally good.

    It doesn't NOT mean that all future DVD players will have DVD+R compatibility. Please try to at least be logical with your "facts" before charging someone as looking into a magical ball.

    DVD-R/W media compatibility in present 2002 drives and DVD players = no worries.

    DVD-R/W media compatibility in future drives and players = no real worries ahead, due to DVD Video certification (using DVD-R media and to an extent DVD-R/W media) with the DVD Forum and the release of high-speed DVD Multi writers (and DVD Multi DVD-ROMs) on the horizon.

    DVD+R/W media compatibility in present drives/players - some worry as some DVD-ROMS still are still not compatible with DVD+R/W (Some AOpen and Pioneer drives). Also, the new DVD Multi DVD-ROM drives from Hitachi and Toshiba are NOT DVD+R/W certified.

    DVD+R/W media compatibility in future drives and DVD players - UNKNOWN. Without certification and testing from the DVD Forum or use of the DVD Video Logo (and if manufacturers continue not to include the DVD+R/W read flag in their players (see PhilipL's post again)), it is really unknown if new drives and players will be 100% compatible with DVD+R/W. Thus, the main importance of the DVD Forum and their logo use. Again, I direct you to read - http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/mess.htm#notice
    The above is very pertinent. DVD+R/W may be very good but it is not endorsed or supported by the DVD Forum. Thus, the future compatibility is UNCERTAIN for players.

    Furthermore, it is by no means a certainty that the market will support multiple recordable DVD standards. Multi-standard drives will alleviate this problem partly but only time will tell.

    Regards.
    Michael Tam
    w: Morsels of Evidence
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    @ Kennyshin: I have to agree with Kusanagi with making relevant posts. Your post in this thread was simply not relevant (portable DVD MP3 players).
    Since I added an implication that it could help promote DVD+MRW?

    The above is very pertinent. DVD+R/W may be very good but it is not endorsed or supported by the DVD Forum. Thus, the future compatibility is UNCERTAIN for players.

    Furthermore, it is by no means a certainty that the market will support multiple recordable DVD standards. Multi-standard drives will alleviate this problem partly but only time will tell.
    So, you believe the "announcement" from DVD From promoting DVD Multi standard is not biased?

    http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/about.htm

    On April 14, 2000, DVD Format/Logo Licensing Corporation was born. It’s birth was a mutual effort of the ten companies that originated DVD Format back in 1995. They also were the founding fathers of DVD Forum.


    These companies are: Hitachi, Philips, Matsushita, Mitsubishi, JVC, Pioneer, Sony, Thomson, Time Warner and Toshiba.
    It seems to me clear it IS DVD Forum itself.

    Same location, same building as well.

    To get in touch with us, write to:
    DVD Format/Logo Licensing Corporation
    Shiba Shimizu Bldg. 5F
    2-3-11 Shibadaimon, Minato-ku,
    Tokyo, JAPAN 105-0012
    Directly linked from DVDForum.org, too.

    http://www.dvdforum.org/forum.shtml

    http://www.dvdforum.org/images/forummap-e.pdf
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  25. All,

    It seams to me that people with +RW drives are arguing that it is the best format, whilst those with -RW say that it is the best.

    This looks like its turning into an amiga vs atari / my computers better than yours debate.

    What about this... If you already have a standalone player, just buy the format which works, and if both work, then take burn time and media cost into the equation.

    If you don't have a standalone player then buy which ever format you want taking into account burn time and media cost, then when you are ready to purchase a standalone player, find one which plays you selected media

    Jim
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  26. Swollen Member
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    Originally Posted by dattrax
    All,

    It seams to me that people with +RW drives are arguing that it is the best format, whilst those with -RW say that it is the best.

    This looks like its turning into an amiga vs atari / my computers better than yours debate.
    Unfortunately, that is not the whole problem. The problem is that some people on either side will provide incorrect or misleading information as fact, in favour of one or the other. This serves to help nothing, including the cause of the person disseminating the incorrect information.

    There's nothing wrong with competition and debate, but it would be a lot more useful if everyone keeps the debates fact based, and remember to temper... well their tempers.
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    It will be easier if people buy both DVD Multi and DVD+MRW drives. Both of them will be available by the end of third quarter of 2002. Though not for everyone, many of the enthusiasts and heavy users will buy two or more DVD writers. There are already people who own both DVD+R/+RW and DVD-R/-RW drives.

    DVD Multi: CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD-RAM
    DVD+MRW: CD-R, CD-MRW, DVD+R, DVD+MRW

    Will it be allowed for DVD Multi to support CD-RW and DVD-MRW as well?
    Also, DVD+Multi can support CD-R, CD-MRW, DVD+R, DVD+RW, and DVD-RAM.

    Actually, I have been waiting to receive the first (engineering?) sample of LG DVD Multi drive from LG Electronics in Seoul for a while. Since it has been greatly delayed, I should change my estimation of street price from $500 to $200. If DVD Multi drives are priced over $250, they will have a hard time to compete with 24x CD-MRW drives, 4x DVD-R drives, and third-generation DVD+RW drives.
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  28. Swollen Member
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    Originally Posted by Kennyshin
    It will be easier if people buy both DVD Multi and DVD+MRW drives. Both of them will be available by the end of third quarter of 2002. Though not for everyone, many of the enthusiasts and heavy users will buy two or more DVD writers. There are already people who own both DVD+R/+RW and DVD-R/-RW drives.

    DVD Multi: CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD-RAM
    DVD+MRW: CD-R, CD-MRW, DVD+R, DVD+MRW

    Will it be allowed for DVD Multi to support CD-RW and DVD-MRW as well?
    Also, DVD+Multi can support CD-R, CD-MRW, DVD+R, DVD+RW, and DVD-RAM.

    Actually, I have been waiting to receive the first (engineering?) sample of LG DVD Multi drive from LG Electronics in Seoul for a while. Since it has been greatly delayed, I should change my estimation of street price from $500 to $200. If DVD Multi drives are priced over $250, they will have a hard time to compete with 24x CD-MRW drives, 4x DVD-R drives, and third-generation DVD+RW drives.
    As you know, combo Toshiba DVD-RAM/-RW/-R readers are already relatively common around the world, and they're <US$50. Hitachi DVD-Multi writers have made appearances already in Asia, but for some reason they are exceedingly rare.

    I dunno what the hold up is with the Hitachi/LG DVD Multi readers. If they ever do get shipped in volume, I suspect they will be in the US$350 range, give or take $50.
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    Eug,

    No, LG-Hitachi is a joint venture of LG and Hitachi. Their combined revenues are well over US $100 billion which is more than that of Samsung and Philips. Since LG has almost zero presence in Japan market and Hitachi is not strong in either retail or OEM ODD market, I doubt any great sales will be made with the Hitachi-branded DVD Multi drive. It is not sold yet as a retail product. You have to buy the $2,000 PC to get the drive.

    The actual volume production is or will be done by LG. The price doesn't necessarily have to be over $300 or $400 or even $200 at all. It is mostly some random decision rather than logical or reasonable.

    By the end of the second quarter of 2002, DVD-R/-RW drive price fell to $270 and DVD+R/+RW drive price to $330 in the US market. In Japan, both were under $300 since the end of the first quarter. It's likely the average price will further drop to $200 and then $150 level during the second half. The initial price of the first generation DVD+RW drives was around $500. The initial price of the second gen. drives $300 and then the third gen. drives will be more like $200 or $150. That is, in case that the volume production of DVD Multi drives will happen during anytime in 2002. If not, the price will remain uncompetitive. The only way DVD Multi can compete successfully against DVD+MRW is massive scale of volume production (over one million units at least) and highly competitive price (under $200).
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