4 different IODATA GV-USB2's tested with samples. Line-TBC-Like-Activity?

[Gary34]

Guess I'm stupid or something but I'm reading your messages as you being mad at him because he's saying that this card doesn't a TBC built into it. You believe this is a claim he found out of thin air or a claim anybody on Videohelp came up with

It’s a misunderstanding. Alwyn actually corrected the statement. I don’t think he was trying to be a jerk there.

The YouTuber is the only one making the claim the card has an actual TBC in it. Aramkolt is testing for card resiliency and there is some talk about PLL. LS just doesn’t want things to be confusing for a new person or them to think I don’t need a TBC if I get this card because it has a TBC like effect when it doesn’t.

VideoCaptureGuide did a video on it, claimed it had a line TBC in it. Lordsmurf just recently made a response debunking it. A response that I agree with.

That was a card being more resilient than another card and the conclusion being made it had a TBC. It’s the conclusion people are trying to avoid with the GV USB. Still great channel.

[aramkolt]

I will admit that I generally equate "horizontal stability/alignment" with "line-tbc-like" activity. It is probably more accurate to say that horizontal stability is the end visual result of what an ideal line TBC does, but conceptually, there are other ways to get at least partially there - "left justifying" each horizontal line of the frame to the far left and then starting a new line once it sees the colorburst for the next line as an example.

That's not to say that "left justify" method would correct all straight lines within a frame, but for something like flagging at the top of an image, it should help quite a bit. Left justifying also kind of seems like something you could do in post capture, (as long as the lines don't go too far off the screen to where they are clipped in a 720 pixel frame.

Main purpose of the post and tests is to point out that some GV-USB2's seem to behave differently - and it's looking like in a good way - though perhaps there's some other tradeoff like sharpness/undesirable noise reduction that still makes it not worth seeking out. That's why I leave it to those smarter than me to point those things out from the samples given. I think comparing them to what are more generally accepted as solid line-TBC-like devices (ES10) or machines with internal line TBCs should be better - but doing the test will show "how much better" they probably are. It might save others from going down the rabbit hole of finding one of these if they see the usually recommended hardware is way better and by how much.

I think it's an interesting topic worth discussion/testing because people are getting different results with a capture device of the same part number which causes a lot of confusion. It does also sound like VideoCaptureGuide/DarrylInCanada has the original GV-USB2 (his was Windows10 boxed) per a post he made on the other thread, so his results may not be the same as what I or TheTechGenie saw. It's also impossible to really get identical results since there's always variability on the tape being used, player, and condition of equipment, but doing a bunch of tests in the same place and trying to only change one variable at a time is still useful I think.

Very odd that the company itself doesn't acknowledge there being a hardware difference in models when I think there's enough information here to say there are differences.

As for frame drop reporting, I likely don't have Amarec set up correctly if the Frame dropping statistics for others work fine with any GV-USB2 as they were all doing the same zero frame thing for me. Could be that may be there were no drops, but maybe there were a bunch of inserts? I've only looked at the statistic that shows up at the bottom of the frame and not the actual "log" file that I think Amarec can produce.

Wouldn't be a lively discussion or for there to be anything learned if we all agreed on everything. I like hearing *why* you all think one way or another - I'm open to changing my mind with the right evidence for sure and on a lot of this, I'm kind of in the opposite mindset of the Dunning Kruger Effect where I've seen enough about the topic that I realize I know relatively little (beyond well established basics) and don't ever want to come across claiming to be an expert.

[Gary34]

The marketing department at GV USB2 would really like the term “line TBC like activity”.

[The 14th Doctor]

The YouTuber is the only one making the claim the card has an actual TBC in it. Aramkolt is testing for card resiliency and there is some talk about PLL. LS just doesn’t want things to be confusing for a new person or them to think I don’t need a TBC if I get this card because it has a TBC like effect when it doesn’t.

VideoCaptureGuide did a video on it, claimed it had a line TBC in it. Lordsmurf just recently made a response debunking it. A response that I agree with.

That was a card being more resilient than another card and the conclusion being made it had a TBC. It’s the conclusion people are trying to avoid with the GV USB. Still great channel.

I get that, seems like you understand his concern with it.

I dunno when I hear the claim that the card has a TBC, I view that as the card is as strong as an ES15 or internal line TBC. But that's not the case. Heck that Sony DV device Vwestlife made a video on has a line TBC like device in it.

These USB cards do not, at the very least they do not to the same degree as those other two devices I just mentioned. I wish it did but it does not.

Also yeah, no offense to VCG his channel is great, but that was the wrong conclusion to be made imo.

[lordsmurf]

That's not to say that "left justify" method would correct all straight lines within a frame, but for something like flagging at the top of an image, it should help quite a bit.

This is mostly wrong, because tearing/flagging is almost always caused by line-length errors. The tearing is actually caused by simpleton justification within the VCR.

Left justifying also kind of seems like something you could do in post capture, (as long as the lines don't go too far off the screen to where they are clipped in a 720 pixel frame.

This is why "software TBCs" failed 20 years ago. It's not that simple.

though perhaps there's some other tradeoff like sharpness/undesirable noise reduction that still makes it not worth seeking out.

Geometric distortion is the #1 issue. I like Sharc's recent sample showing background antennas that looked like boomerangs.

As for frame drop reporting, I likely don't have Amarec set up correctly

You see what you see, and no need to feel bullied out of your observation. Many of us see it. There are no facts to the contrary. In fact, there are fact to back you up.

I'm kind of in the opposite mindset of the Dunning Kruger Effect where I've seen enough about the topic that I realize I know relatively little (beyond well established basics) and don't ever want to come across claiming to be an expert.

You're wise. You realize that you don't know what you don't know, and it could bite you in the ass at any time. I've been this way my entire life.

I feel like this argument is all boiling down to confusion.

I'm reading this like Alwin misunderstood why Lordsmurf put his blue foot down on this 'debate'. Him, you, Sharc and myself are all saying that the IO-Data does not have line TBC capabilities, certainly not to the degree that an ES15 or internal VCR TBC has. Trust me if it had the same strengths as an ES15 but without the drawbacks of one I'd use it.

If anything it feels like Alwyn started the attack, believing we were making this claim.

I agree with you Lollo that from my own test, with the worse tape I have in my collection signal wise, that it does not correct time base errors, rather it is as resilient as a Pinnacle 510/710 is to them. At least when being fed from an S-VHS VCR with it's internal TBC turned off and on (as the tape has it's own problems with that internal TBC turned on)

Sounds like Alwyn thought that one of us was making this "IO-Data has a TBC built into guys!" claim. When it isn't any of us, rather it's thetechgenie on YouTube. He's the one who is causing this false notion, not to rag on the guy but still.

We are trying to put the fire out before it spreads even further.

No offense to Aramkolt or Darryal/VideoCaptureGuide but it seems like they are maybe falling under this notion, I appreciate their tests but I feel like we are all trying to put a stop for this misinformation before it gets out there.

Look the IO-Data is a fine enough card to me, it ain't the worse but I personally prefer sticking with Pinnacles for audio sync reasons.

But I feel like we are trying to deny that it has a line TBC, we are not trying to make "it has a line TBC built into it!" a reason to use that card.

Especially if it only happens in newer revisions, then that'd lead to a huge gamble.

^ Agreed, 100%, all of it.

Congrats you made it worse. This seriously ain't helping here.

'Aw yeah I love drama in my internet forums'

Guess I'm stupid or something but I'm reading your messages as you being mad at him because he's saying that this card doesn't a TBC built into it. You believe this is a claim he found out of thin air or a claim anybody on Videohelp came up with.

This isn't a claim he is making, not me, not Lollo, but TheTechGenie over at YouTube. What is this, Retrotink propaganda all over again or something?

He disagrees with that claim being made and so do I. We are trying to debunk this until it spreads too far. We are not hating on the guy as a person, but some of us are trying to correct him here.

Honestly post #7 sounds like you are in this "it has a TBC" camp.

{...}

This all started from a YouTube video, and now it is spreading, we are trying to make it stop and you sadly are not helping.

You make it sound like he is accusing any one of us on making this claim but he isn't. God, I know that he and Lollo argue about the IO-Data a lot but this "It has a line TBC baked into it, it can correct wiggling all on it's own!" isn't one of those reasons from my understanding.

It does not, I wish it did, I wish it was as strong as a Panasonic ES10 or ES15 but it just ain't. The IO-Data does not correct that stuff on it's own. But an ES15/ES10 does, sometimes even stronger than a JVC's internal TBC depending on the tape.

That is why we use them for those rare situations where you'd rather deal with the drawbacks because the end result is an actually stable picture

Correct.

I personally designed several PLLs based on the classic charge pump-vco-phase shift-filter.

Uh-huh, great. My point is that this implementation of PLL, if it is believed to be responsible for what we see, is some sort of "phase NR", for lack of a better term. Since you claim to know so much about PLL, why not be part of the constructive conversation, not the drama queen part of it?

The contact printed only refers to how the signal is written to the tape and does not impact (or only marginally) the time based errors.

With comments like that, it's quite clear that you just want to be contrarian. The fact is that contact print method changes how timing errors exist and present on playback. It's a bad sample choice for this sort of error. You just want to argue with me, hen backdoor agree -- and in the same sentence!

The red boxes show nothing.

Then you're blind. It's interlacing caused by timing wiggle.

On a fixed image the orange boxes shows nothing,

If you want to see it in motion, use those location boxes to self-locate in the attached videos. Then step in a timeline.

What's the point here? Excuses for the card? A recommened worklow requires a TBC correction,

Why are you even participating in this thread? Clearly you've not read the topic, and are just here to defend "my precious" GV-USB2. It's just a capture card, hopefully, not something you spoon in bed at night. We're trying to dispel a myth about it having a TBC, so you don't need to "defend it's honor".

While I enjoy my tools, be it AIW cards or TBCs, I don't want to fellate them. It gives all-new meaning to "USB stick".

- GV-USB2 in AmaRecTV does not properly report insert/dropped frames. That's because the internal mechanics of broadcast software is about continuity, not signal integrity. Dropping/inserting frames is an expected action of broadcast/streaming software. While AmaRecTV does some reporting, the exact reporting done, and why, is not clearly understood by anyone.

Complete bullshit. You are parroting false statements from others

Yeah, yeah, whatever. I see it, others see it.

But you attacked user Alwin without any reason,

WTF? His first comment was "You and your group-thinkers"
GTFOOH with that BS.

Yes, few are better, but the cards that you recommend/sell are not better that the GV-USB2

STFU.

I'm done, this ain't doing you any favors man.. meh, this sucks on ice.

Sad, isn't it? The site has devolved into a trolling board. No wonder people are just going to Reddit and Youtube now. This isn't the VH I knew in the '00s and '10s. We can't even have a damned constructive conversation here anymore, without the peanut gallery interjecting at everything, arguing for sport.

[Gary34]

The title of the thread makes it kind of hard to defend. It would be different if it was titled testing GV USB2 resiliency or something about PLLs instead of TBC like activity. That's close to what the YouTuber is claiming. It's just you're proposing it may act like a TBC instead of has a TBC.

[The 14th Doctor]

Who is doing that now? Aramkolt? I guess that's how he views it so far.

I don't think anybody here on this site is claiming it has a line TBC built into it. So why are we attacking each other like somebody is accusing one of us for making such a claim?

We aren't. Lollo and LS have had arguments about this card and will probably continue to do so until one of them retires, but the TBC claim is not one of those arguments.

I'm probably just repeating myself here.. meh.

If anything I appreciate Aram stating that #3 was the Windows 11 branded version, shows that it does not have a line TBC built into it.

I've done my own test myself with the worse tape I have signal wise.

Who knows anymore, maybe I bought the wrong one on Amazon a month and a half ago and would have to gamble buying a crap ton from Japan using Buyee or something. I'd rather not waste my money like that.

What is the truth so far, that the IO-Data can not correct time base errors by itself and is only as resilient to them as a Pinnacle 510 is.

It needs a proper line TBC first, that can be an internal one built into an S-VHS VCR/Hi8 Camcorder or as the least worse option, a Panasonic ES10/ES15 DVD Recorder.

I feel like this claim can be taken as "oh you don't need an ES15 anymore, this capture card is enough" which it ain't.

[Sharc]

Instead of getting lost in semantics an verbal sparring let's try to confirm or reject whether one (ore some) of aramkolt's four GV-USB2 sticks and drivers produces systematically, repeatedly, reproducible, understandable and plausible less line wiggle/jitter/geometric distortions than the others. If so we may go on sepculating as to why, like (silent) design change, new drivers, random pick, his source, setup etc.
I think that was the OP's original intention.