S-VHS Player 'dimness' issues

[crissrudd4554]

Hello, I've been doing VHS capturing for several years now and have spent a lot of money on various capturing and recording devices to improve my capturing methods. Without going into full history of what I've done I'll break it down to where I have it currently. My current recording devices include a JVC HR-S9900U S-VHS VCR, a WinTV HVR 950Q capture card, and for external TBC I alternate between a AVT-8710 (green) or a Big Voodoo TBC10 along with a Panasonic ES15 DVD recorder. I have a Panasonic AG1980 VCR but its so problematic that I don't use it anymore. I did have a JVC HR-S9911U VCR but I was having some repairs done to it and it might not be usable anymore.

Anyways to what I really want to discuss and I'll be honest semi-rant about. A major reason I've done the bulk of my capturing in the last few years with S-VHS players is well those are what are typically recommended if you want quality captures and mostly for the built in TBC's that improve image stabilization. But I have had one continuous gripe with EVERY S-VHS player I have tested in the last few years and that is that regardless, and I mean REGARDLESS, of whatever my capturing setup is, regardless of what device I'm capturing with be it a capture card or a DVD recorder, these players have an annoying tendency to either go slighter dark in some spots or slightly bright. Most of the time its random but I've done several tests where every now and then they occur in the same spots. Here's a GIF that semi illustrates what I mean (I recommend looking at this from a computer monitor). Note how it goes slightly dark near the end??



I know it's not the best example but its what I have on hand. Maybe I'm being picky but frankly I find this very annoying. In my history of doing VHS captures if I capture from a non-S-VHS player most of the time I don't get issues like this if for example I use a DVD recorder for pass through. However a big problem with that method is without a proper TBC I get occasional frame jumps. Not many, they're probably as infrequent as the dimness spots I get with S-VHS players but nonetheless still there. Either way I'm settling for less than what I want.

Regardless of what my capturing method is, if an S-VHS VCR is in the mix, those dimness spots are gonna occur. Its occurred with EVERY S-VHS player I've tested. A year or so back I even tested a JVC-S7600u VCR. Still happened. This just seems like a continuous byproduct of S-VHS players, at least with me it has. I've yet to test an S-VHS player that didn't do this. Frankly its been ruining my interest in capturing and there's stuff I wanna save. But not if there's continuous spots where it randomly gets dim and then not. I almost wanna just go back to a regular VCR and a DVD recorder as a passthrough and just live with the frame jumps. They're not frequent, they're about as noticeable as the dimness spots I'm getting with these S-VHS players. I just think on a professional and monetary level these are not the results people should have. I've tried and tried, what seems so simple just guarantees a compromise. I literally would rather just watch my tapes as is going forward. S-VHS players and external TBC's do not give me what I want.

[lollo]

Difficult to believe. Are you sure the problem is not in the AGC of the capture card or a defect in the tape? Did you try to whatch that exact spot directly on the TV? Can you post some sample of captures performed with different cards?

[aramkolt]

The AG1980 likely just needs a full refurb, I do those if you need it (have done around 45 of them at this point), PM me if interested. On the AG1980, you can actually adjust luma output level with a potentiometer, but kind of sounds like you should get a proc amp if you want more control over other levels. This would probably go before the DVD recorder. DVD recorders are known to mess with black levels to some degree and your different frame TBCs could also be contributing. I'd try removing all devices from your chain and try a direct capture first without a DVD recorder or frame TBC and see if you get the darkening in the same spot on the tape.

My guess is the issue has more to do with the rest of your capture chain as opposed to the SVHS VCRs since they all reportedly do the same thing. Seems the one device per your description that you haven't changed is the capture card - could have automatic gain control issues and can absolutely cause the sort of random lightening/darkening you are seeing since that is usually the symptom of poor AGC. The TBCs in question should remove macrovision, but macrovision can cause that also (which is still a type of AGC issue). For home movies, there shouldn't be any macrovision present though.

[crissrudd4554]

Difficult to believe. Are you sure the problem is not in the AGC of the capture card or a defect in the tape? Did you try to whatch that exact spot directly on the TV? Can you post some sample of captures performed with different cards?

Don't think its a tape issue (am I certain?? no) mainly just cause it happens to varying degree regardless of what tape I use. Could you elaborate on AGC of the capture card?? Is that something I need to tap into (I wouldn't know how anyway)?? Here's a few more GIFS. That first one I shared was actually captured a few years on the Panasonic AG1980 using a a Mygica Capit capture card. No DVD recorder or external TBC (I didn't have an external TBC at the time).

This was captured literally two days ago. Setup was JVC S9000U VCR, Voodoo TBC10, Panasonic ES15 DVD recorder, WinTV HVR 950q capture card.



For comparison here's a capture I did of the same tape about 2-3 years ago. Can't fully remember the setup. Think this was the either the JVC HR-S9900U or the HR-S9911U and the Panasonic ES15 as a passthrough and recorded to a JVC DR-M10 DVD recorder. Fairly sure I didn't have an external TBC for this not counting the Panasonic. But as you see there's no subtle flicker here.



But just to counter that here's a clip from the capture I did two days ago...



...versus the DVD recording I did a few years ago.



The first one goes slightly lighter near the end while the second if you look REAL close it goes slightly dim about midway (as he starts raising the rifle).

[crissrudd4554]

The AG1980 likely just needs a full refurb, I do those if you need it (have done around 45 of them at this point), PM me if interested. On the AG1980, you can actually adjust luma output level with a potentiometer, but kind of sounds like you should get a proc amp if you want more control over other levels. This would probably go before the DVD recorder. DVD recorders are known to mess with black levels to some degree and your different frame TBCs could also be contributing. I'd try removing all devices from your chain and try a direct capture first without a DVD recorder or frame TBC and see if you get the darkening in the same spot on the tape.

My guess is the issue has more to do with the rest of your capture chain as opposed to the SVHS VCRs since they all reportedly do the same thing. Seems the one device per your description that you haven't changed is the capture card - could have automatic gain control issues and can absolutely cause the sort of random lightening/darkening you are seeing since that is usually the symptom of poor AGC. The TBCs in question should remove macrovision, but macrovision can cause that also (which is still a type of AGC issue). For home movies, there shouldn't be any macrovision present though.

Apologies since I'm only just seeing this response after I posted my last one. The first GIF I shared was a straight capture. AG1980 (TBC on), Mygica Captit Capture card, computer. I should've clarified that bit in my initial post but as I said that was the only clip I had on hand at the time that I could share on the fly to illustrate what I meant.

[lollo]

In order to assess that the VCRs are the problem you need to remove the captures from the equation. So connect any VCRs you own directly to the TV and check if the brigthness change/dimming is still there.

[dellsam34]

Having that many devices in the capture chain and all VCRs gave the same low gain I'll bet you got a problem with the capture chain, wrong setting in the procamp, corrupt driver, bad electronics, Time to get another capture card to test or connect to the TV.

[crissrudd4554]

Having that many devices in the capture chain and all VCRs gave the same low gain I'll bet you got a problem with the capture chain, wrong setting in the procamp, corrupt driver, bad electronics, Time to get another capture card to test or connect to the TV.

In order to assess that the VCRs are the problem you need to remove the captures from the equation. So connect any VCRs you own directly to the TV and check if the brigthness change/dimming is still there.

Part of the reason I'm putting strong emphasis on the VCR(s) is because in my history of doing captures, and believe me I'm NOT calling myself an expert in anyway, when I've captured with a regular non S-VHS VCR (usually with a DVD recorder as a TBC like standin) I practically NEVER got the dimness issues. But without proper TBC doing it that way will cause occasional frame drops. I can hook my S-VHS player into a TV and watch as is and see what happens but that doesn't necessarily narrow it down to where the issue is occurring. Maybe its the capture card but sometimes I use a DVD recorder instead but it happens there too and that sometimes is even when the chain is reduced. I mean I'll do what you guys are suggesting but as I've said this has happened with ALL my recording and capturing methods be it a capture card or a DVD recorder if the signal is coming from an S-VHS player.

[Sharc]

Are you on PAL or NTSC? If on PAL your VCR and/or Passthrough DVD recorder should have 2 S-Video outputs: 1 Hosiden (=Mini-DIN) and 1 on SCART.
If so, try the SCART output because there the black level of the signal on the Y-wire (sync+luma signal) is already restored and stably set by the VCR (or the passthrough device) - at least for the Panasonics I have seen. The Hosiden on the other hand is AC-coupled, means the subsequent device (capture card) has to restore the black level which MAY cause some slight brightness fluctuations depending on the signal average which in turn depends on the picture content.

[crissrudd4554]

Ntsc

[Sharc]

Ntsc

In this case your capture card is anyway challenged to restore the black level properly. If it has an issue with its clamping or AGC circuit this may be the reason for the random brightness fluctuations. Just speculating.

[crissrudd4554]

So is there a different capture card that is recommended????

[Sharc]

So is there a different capture card that is recommended????

If it is faulty yes. How should we know? Do the other tests as suggested before thinking of a replacement. Are all the connectors and plugs in good condition?

[crissrudd4554]

So is there a different capture card that is recommended????

If it is faulty yes. How should we know? Do the other tests as suggested before thinking of a replacement. Are all the connectors and plugs in good condition?

Yes I would say for the most part. I’m even using brand RCA cables and the capture card I actually bought fairly new a few months back since the last one I used started having audio issues.

[aramkolt]

Still think it is capture card until proven otherwise. Every time you have the issue, it occurs while using that capture card. There's quite a variety of capture cards that are recommended, but really no one can agree on what is best. As far as ones that are available new, the IOdata GV-USB2 is supposedly fairly decent and I've not heard of anyone having AGC issues with it.

[crissrudd4554]

I mentioned before that I also have had this problem even using DVD recorders, not just capture cards. I’ll do a series of tests. Probably won’t hear from me for a few days but I’ll be back with my analysis of the tests as soon as I can.

[aramkolt]

Are you sure that there's no macrovision present? Seems most of the clips posted are commercial releases which may have that. Or I guess perhaps the better question is if you still see the brightness fluctuations with an over the air TV recording or home recorded videos?

[crissrudd4554]

The RoboCop tape I sampled is not Macrovision protected.