1T-TBC - How to determine version

[lordsmurf]

any additional device in the chain introduces a neglettable or significant image alteration

This isn't necessarily true. This is the concept of "transparency". It also leads into a discussion about proper alterations, such as legalizing. You don't necessarily want unaltered if the unaltered is bad.

As I often write, there are factors. Which is why I wrote several posts ago that simple A/B comparisons are often an incomplete summation. A/B can be a very low-knowledge way to approach complex topics, if/when done improperly. In this thread, A/B was just comparing variables without a constant. We have no idea what is the "proper" image recording, so false assumptions are/were made that one is "darker" (or the other "lighter").

What I see is either:
- Over-contrast in the "without TBC", and typical muddy VHS dark in the "with TBC". That suggests timing issues that have interfered with luma/chroma values (and that happens).
- Wrong/drifted proc amp settings on this exact TBC, leading to +1/+2 offset on contrast settings.

If you guys want to keep your TBC always on for convenience of usage, and do not care about potential loss of quality,

But the inverse is also true. Not having TBC also leads to "potential loss of quality", and that's actually more common than the inverse.

However, the second and major point in this topic, was the statement that "comparing videos is useless", which, as a man of science, I can't tolerate,

Simple A/B comparisons can be quite misleading, thus worthless. That's science too!

especially with the false motivations brought forward as a counterpoint.

What motivation? Are you strawman insisting that because I sometimes refurb+sell TBCs, my information is somehow invalid. Okay, what about the two decades prior, where I gave the same advice, and sold nothing (because refurb was not needed, the gear was sold new at B&H/etc). Hmmm?

[lollo]

especially with the false motivations brought forward as a counterpoint.

What motivation? Are you strawman insisting that because I sometimes refurb+sell TBCs, my information is somehow invalid. Okay, what about the two decades prior, where I gave the same advice, and sold nothing (because refurb was not needed, the gear was sold new at B&H/etc). Hmmm?

Not at all.

It is true that you have a conflict of interest big like a house, but I don't care, nor I deny some (some) aspects of the capture process where we agree (I just point out to others that when you write that some modern cards are inferior to the Pinnacle USB 710 you sell is false; just as an example).

I referred to your desparate attempt to invalidate a comparison with silliness like "It's not as easy as random items cobbled together, and then compare it pseudo-scientifically" or "Pro users easily spot this nonsense, but casual/amateur users are fooled (and wrongly led to believe that methodology is correct)".

Next time think twice before writing.

[Gary34]

The Pinnacle cards in the marketplace are nice. There was actually someone recently on dfaq that really likes his Pinnacle card and he has had his pick of basically any Blackmagic gear he wants for a while because he’s friends with someone that works for Blackmagic. I guess that really shouldn’t be a surprise since Blackmagic isn’t suggested by here or dfaq. https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/15269-vhs-worth-capture.html

You are definitely the most outspoken proponent of the newer cards. What are your conclusions about the newer cards being on par with the Pinnacle cards or the ATI AIW line based on? I’m not trying to be rude in just wondering out of curiosity.

[Sharc]

It also leads into a discussion about proper alterations, such as legalizing ....

Here a bit of nitpicking:
"1-TBC" has less out-of gamut RGB than "No TBC" with its clipped REDs (using the non-expanding ITU limited-limited TV matrix). Out-of-Gamut RGB pixels are show in Cyan on the right side.
Nothing dramatic but once you mention legalizing ....



[Attachment 88259 - Click to enlarge]


[Attachment 88260 - Click to enlarge]

[lollo]

I guess that really shouldn’t be a surprise since Blackmagic isn’t suggested by here or dfaq

I do not deep follow digitalfaq forums since longtimes (like Bogilein, Scharfis_Brain and other knowledgeable users) because biased opinions there, but I confirm that I (we) use Blackmagic cards only for capturing digital material.

I posted a sample here long time ago comparing a classic analog capture of a recorded broadcast channel versus the betacam digital master that the TV channel provided to us: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/405502-YouTube-channels-playlists-showcasing-captu...eo#post2686067 (it is intersting to watch the comparison video, to understand how the original studio signal is processed before arriving to a home user enviroment).

To answer your question, I/O Data GV-USB2 and Hauppauge USB Live-2 are equivalent in term of quality to old Pinnacle and ATI cards, no need then to set-up an old XP hardware complicating your life, and spend a fortune to buy out of production cards. There are several examples in the forums, provided by me or somebody else comparing different workflows.

The new cards, as well as the old ones, need a proper Y/C time base corrected signal being captured 4:2:2 interlaced and with a lossless codec fed from a high-end player to perform at their best, especially if a further restoration is planned.

[Sharc]

The Pinnacle cards in the marketplace are nice. There was actually someone recently on dfaq that really likes his Pinnacle card and he has had his pick of basically any Blackmagic gear he wants for a while because he’s friends with someone that works for Blackmagic. I guess that really shouldn’t be a surprise since Blackmagic isn’t suggested by here or dfaq. https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/15269-vhs-worth-capture.html

If you want to admire his captures go here:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/418758-Is-it-worth-it-recapturing-videos#post2780527

[Gary34]

To answer your question, I/O Data GV-USB2 and Hauppauge USB Live-2 are equivalent in term of quality to old Pinnacle and ATI cards, no need then to set-up an old XP hardware complicating your life, and spend a fortune to buy out of production cards. There are several examples in the forums, provided by me or somebody else comparing different workflows.

I can capture on my Windows 10 Inspiron 5675 or my Windows 7 Inspiron 3847 with my Pinnacle 510. The right version of the Pinnacle card is 175$. My Inspiron 5675 I had before I ever thought about capturing. I just paid a few bucks for the windows 7 3847. I don’t hear LS tell new users to build an XP machine. You can if you’re willing to. I didn’t want to. That’s only for the AIW cards. The only user I can recall a Pinnacle not working for is Hushpower.

If you want to admire his captures go here:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/418758-Is-it-worth-it-recapturing-videos#post2780527

You are talking about River0007 and I am talking about radiokom

[lordsmurf]

Blackmagic isn’t suggested by here or dfaq.

Even Blackmagic doesn't suggest Blackmagic for VHS. The tech support at BM has told that to customers for years now.

To answer your question, I/O Data GV-USB2 and Hauppauge USB Live-2 are equivalent in term of quality to old Pinnacle and ATI cards,

That's not accurate at all.

You yourself have discussed how craptastic Live2 cards are with any signal imperfections (ie, near-zero resiliency), while GV-USB2 complaints are common online (lousy drivers, bad exposure values, audio drift even with TBC, etc). Some of that may be due to versioning in chips/firmware (which you always deny without further investigation). GV-USB2 also only works well with the Japanese analog streamer (pre-OBS) software AmaRecTV, not VirtualDub or anything else (including OBS).

On the other hand, AIW has extremely accurate values, while certain sub-version Pinnacle have some of the best resiliency with near-AIW values. No capture software issues.

We don't use old OS because we like it, but because the best cards require it (or prefer it). A new OS isn't our goal, video quality is.

And it's not just me saying these things! These are common complaints online, and people replace Live2/GV-USB2 with better cards all the time. You always want to "shoot the messenger (me) when I discuss this. And they never discuss it (on this site) for fear of be bullied by you (which you've done in other VH threads/posts). I do not understand this misplaced adoration of hardware, of mere tools. It's weird.

Neither card is Easycap/Dazzle/Elgato-level crap, but it's not good either. Very middling.

The only user I can recall a Pinnacle not working for is Hushpower.

Hushpower/Alwyn nuked his own card by leaving it plugged in (and thus turned on) during a Windows Update. It quit working after that (and he recently had the audacity to blame me for his user error).

In recent years, him and lollo are seemingly the only two people on the entire internet vocally proclaiming GV-USB2 to be the best card ever, while certain Pinnacles and AIW have been recommended for decades now by hundreds of knowledgeable users. Right now, in 2025, there are near-daily problem posts concerning Live2/GV-USB2 cards -- and replacing those with Pinnacle/ATI fixes the problem 90%+ of the time.

I have both cards, Live2 and GV-USB2, and both are in my dev/junk drawer. Had either card been better, I'd surely be using them (and have bought more). I'm not. I can't be any clearer than that.

I don’t hear LS tell new users to build an XP machine.

Correct.

I don't know why some people think otherwise. Yes, AIW is best, and requires XP. But there are other options, some of which I use myself. I'm not an AIW purist, I'm a pragmatist (and realist). AIW is worth XP, but then it also needs to be SATA/multicore hardware, not ancient IDE/P4. WinXP and Win7 are best, but there are paths to other OS (including Mac and Linux).

[Alwyn]

Hushpower/Alwyn nuked his own card by leaving it plugged in (and thus turned on) during a Windows Update. It quit working after that (and he recently had the audacity to blame me for his user error).

Where did I write that? And in any case, when you sold me that card, why didn't you warn me? And I didn't blame you, I criticised the 710-USB because it now doesn't work on Win 11.

In recent years, him and lollo are seemingly the only two people on the entire internet vocally proclaiming GV-USB2 to be the best card ever

Pot calling the kettle black! Rubbish, and you know it. I have NEVER claimed the GV is the BEST CARD EVER. Stop telling lies. When people have asked, I have suggested. When people have criticised, I have commented. Just like you have with your wonderful AIW and ATIs.

GV-USB2 also only works well with the Japanese analog streamer (pre-OBS) software AmaRecTV, not VirtualDub or anything else (including OBS).

AmeRecTV's worse than OBS. I love it!

I don’t hear LS tell new users to build an XP machine.

Correct.

But in the very next para you ramble on about Win XP/7 being the best!!

Yes, AIW is best, and requires XP. But there are other options, some of which I use myself. I'm not an AIW purist, I'm a pragmatist (and realist). AIW is worth XP, but then it also needs to be SATA/multicore hardware, not ancient IDE/P4. WinXP and Win7 are best

You might be a perfectionist who does nothing other than tinker with video stuff, but I'd wager 80% of the world just want to get tapes transferred in decent quality and get on with their lives. AIW/XP/SATA/Multicore is just over the top for most. That's why so many of those "abhorred" YT techniques get so many likes.

Right now, in 2025, there are near-daily problem posts concerning Live2/GV-USB2 cards

Where? Your famed 710-USB has had more bad posts on your chatroom than the GV ever had. Besides, given the 710 hasn't been in production for decades, there are probably thousands more GVs about and so of course there will be more reported problems.

You're entitled to be a perfectionist: just don't try to ram it down everybody's throats.

Pity yet another thread tangents off into yet another Smurf rail-against-all-that-isn't-2000s-technology and anybody who isn't one of his fanboys.

[lordsmurf]

when you sold me that card, why didn't you warn me?

Why didn't I warn you that the infamous Microsoft Windows Update might ruin plugged-in USB hardware? Are you new to computers? Am I also responsible to tell you to wipe your butt after pooping?

But in the very next para you ramble on about Win XP/7 being the best!!

Yes, it is best. But that doesn't mean I tell people they must use WinXP.

You might be a perfectionist who does nothing other than tinker with video stuff,

Nope, that is not me. Again, pragmatist, realist. But with quality as the main concern, not cheap prices or laziness.

AIW/XP/SATA/Multicore is just over the top for most.

I agree, and have for years. Hence post-XP methods.

Where?

Pretty much name a site, and look around. Reddit, Youtube, digitalFAQ.com, here, etc. There is always a new post somewhere. It's an epidemic.

on your chatroom

I don't have a chatroom.

Besides, given the 710 hasn't been in production for decades, there are probably thousands more GVs about

No. 710 was long-lived (and hence why versions).

You're entitled to be a perfectionist: just don't try to ram it down everybody's throats.

I'm not, and I don't.

isn't-2000s-technology

2000s had high-quality gear.
2020s has cheap USB/HDMI garbage made in China, often reverse-engineered (but badly) based on that 2000s hardware.

[Alwyn]

not cheap prices or laziness.

You're the "bully" (as you called lollo...).

How dare you accuse people of being cheap or lazy.

[The 14th Doctor]

Can we please stop arguing and derailing this thread even more? This is looking bad for you both...

Just have people use what they want to use, if they come back complaining then that is on them.

You want to stick with a Pinnacle or IO-Data since you want to use a more modern OS? Go ahead, you do you. Alwyn, just wondering if you even know if your Pinnacle still works perfectly fine on anything pre Windows 10 or is a complete bust no matter the OS? I understand that it's a bust on Windows 11 and was hit or miss on Windows 10 for you, but how much of that is caused by the specific card itself, or the fact it doesn't work as intended past Windows 7. You said the DV side of things still works so I don't believe the whole card is fried and useless..

I guess on the topic of "oh I need to use Windows XP, the horrors!" I'm not one to talk since I'm more than comfortable with using a 2013 Dell Latitude running XP to do my offline capturing stuff. More so because I originally bought the machine to play retro PC games before switching course and using it to capture tapes, nothing more nothing less. I leave everything else to a modern 2022 Lenovo Thinkpad Mobile Workstation laptop running Windows 10.

[lollo]

You yourself have discussed how craptastic Live2 cards are with any signal imperfections (ie, near-zero resiliency)

My recommended workflow is to capture a Y/C time base corrected signal, so I compare the final visual quality inside this boundaries. If a card behaves better than another in non ideal conditions I do not care, because I am looking for maximum quality.
I simply warn people that USB-Live 2 need a Y/C time base corrected signal to perform at its best.

while GV-USB2 complaints are common online (lousy drivers, bad exposure values, audio drift even with TBC, etc)

False. There has been some complaints just about drivers and fake model of it being commercialized, but never for intrinsic video quality nor audio drift. Bring evidences otherwise.

Some of that may be due to versioning in chips/firmware (which you always deny without further investigation).

I am an electronic engineer designing Analog ICs, so your bullshit of chips revision can trick some people but cannot work with me. When there is a change I notice it and report. There has been a thread recently where I discovered that the latest revisions of USB-Live 2 have a different USB chip inside it and I was assessing that, the drivers, the histograms, the levels, etc. I always bring facts on the table, not your blah blah blah without any evidences.

GV-USB2 also only works well with the Japanese analog streamer (pre-OBS) software AmaRecTV, not VirtualDub or anything else (including OBS).

Capture software is another aspect, and is not related to video quality. USB-Live 2 and GV-USB2 works with VirtualDub, VirtualVCR, AmarecTV, etc. As you know I sometime use my own capture software to assess inserted/dropped frames and understand the nature of the problem on the tapes. The choice of the capture software for a card depends on few factors, the most important being the audio/video synch at the end of long captures. This thread should remind you something: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12986-amarectv-frame-inserts.html

We don't use old OS because we like it, but because the best cards require it (or prefer it). A new OS isn't our goal, video quality is.

No need, some modern cards are just as good in term of video quality, so you can use modern OS.

And it's not just me saying these things! These are common complaints online, and people replace Live2/GV-USB2 with better cards all the time. You always want to "shoot the messenger (me) when I discuss this. And they never discuss it (on this site) for fear of be bullied by you (which you've done in other VH threads/posts).

What a charlatan! You are mystifying reality here. If you just click on my profile and check my posts you can see how many users have adopted USB-Live 2 or GV-USB2 with great results that I analyzed in many posts (some of them significant for certain aspects are also on my youtube channel).
About the "common complaints", time ago I posted a long list of successfull experiences with these cards from other users. I invite you to do the same with the supposed complaints you read around.

I do not understand this misplaced adoration of hardware, of mere tools. It's weird.

Incredible! The world backwards! I do not care about any card, nor I like any in particular by default. I just care about quality and do not like people writing lies on the forums. The one who has adoration for specific cards is you, also related to your big conflict of interest. Reading your many post on the subject makes it more than evident to everyone.

edit: here the link to the discussion about chipset revision I mentioned; the whole thread is quite interesting! https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/417100-Improve-Hauppauge-USB-Live2-capture-quality

[Alwyn]

Just have people use what they want to use, if they come back complaining then that is on them.

Precisely what I have been advocating. Plenty of people come back here asking questions (not complaining) and the knowledgeable users at VideoHelp do just that; help them. Unlike virtually every post of you-know-who.

I'm not going to stand by and let you-know-who blast everybody who doesn't use a setup he likes or dares to present a different point of view.

[The 14th Doctor]

Oh yeah he helps you alright, helps you by making you go down a select path.

I guess I'm not the one to talk, I went down that path. Despite my issues with him overall I'd say he has been helpful to me, so please don't take it the wrong way that I fully hate the guy. I don't, I have my issues but I can see that he has been more a positive to me than a negative.

I dunno, maybe I'm lucky that the equipment I bought from him 2 years ago is still going strong, perhaps part of is that I was willing to stick with Windows XP if need be. I try to be flexible.

Just, this back and forward yelling sucks. Makes us look like dinguses.

I should probably stop talking, I'm contributing to this thread becoming off topic..

Maybe Lollo is right that the IO-Data is on par with the Pinnacle, but I personally probably have no desire to make the jump if it only the same as it, not better. His captures seem to be very good in my eyes.

I dunno, if somebody wants to use a modern OS and those kind of select capture cards then it is their choice. If it works well in VirtualDub or whatever then maybe they'll talk about their positive experience. Like uh, I tried to get AmeracTV setup but I couldn't understand so I went back to VirtualDub, works great for me with my setup, no dropped frames nor seemingly any audio sync issues (I tend to use hard cuts as reference)

Can't we just use what we decide to go with, you do it your way, he does his way, I do it my way.

[Traderbam]

Yes, I didn't mean to create a thread that descends to chaos

@LS - all I need now is my 710 delivered again (previous one returned in March) so that I can compare directly with my USBLive2.

[lollo]

but I personally probably have no desire to make the jump if it only the same as it, not better.

There is no need to do any jump, I wrote hundred of times that the recommended middle-end UBS cards are the I/O Data GV-USB2, the Hauppauge USB-Live 2, the Pinnacle 710-USB, the ATI 600 USB and few others. They are all more or less equivalent in term of video quality. I just reply when the opposite is stated.

To be perfectionist there is a recent discover, that the latest drivers of the USB-Live 2 allows to capture the Y full range 0-254, which is a major advantage because you do not have to play with the procamp of the cards to stay inside capturable range (generally 16-254 or 16-245) avoiding to crush the blacks and clip the whites: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/418254-Info-Hauppauge-USB-Live-2-capturable-range.
Of course, if the levels are out of range in the tape they must be compensated, but that's not so common.

[lordsmurf]

Just have people use what they want to use, if they come back complaining then that is on them.

Here's the issue: they often come back.
So I try to save people from themselves, from making those bad decisions. I hate seeing people piss away money on subpar items, simply due to cheap pricing. And let's be honest here: when it comes to capture cards, $110 vs. $185 isn't that big of a leap. If you really need to save that $75, regardless of the downsides, then you may have bigger problems, and perhaps capturing videotapes shouldn't be your current priority in life.

I am an electronic engineer

That's great, you have/had a career that pays a decent wage. I hope you enjoyed it, found it rewarding. But 99% of EEs I've met have zero knowledge about video. The skills have no overlap.

I do not care about any card,

Awesome, then we can quit having these sorts of threads.

there is a recent discover, that the latest drivers of the USB-Live 2 allows to capture the Y full range 0-254,

Thanks for the tip. I will investigate when time allows.

Yes, I didn't mean to create a thread that descends to chaos
@LS - all I need now is my 710 delivered again (previous one returned in March) so that I can compare directly with my USBLive2.

I'll get you taken care of.