Help with a VHS Project/Understanding VHS

[Anonym00se]

Hello!
I have a personal project, I want to record digital media onto a VHS tape. At the moment, I’m using the latest version of After Effects to create my desired graphics to put onto the tape. I want this to be as authentic as I can achieve, so so far I’ve created a 720x480 29.97 fps project. I then make the graphics and export the project to Media Encoder, where I set the video to interlaced (upper field). As AE says 720x480 is 3:2, I change the ratio from “square pixels” to “standard 4:3” and it just adds black bars to the top and bottom (is that correct?). One variable I can’t change though is the color space. While I can set the working color space to “Rec. 601 NTSC Gamma 2.4” (2.2 isn’t an option), it seems to output Rec. 709, but on IINA it states the color space as:

Primaries: BT.601-525/BT.1886 (SDR)
Colorspace: kCGColorSpaceDeviceRGB (SDR)
Pixel Format: yuv420p (SW)

Does this sound like a decent workflow? Any thought/critiques are appreciated, thanks!!

[dellsam34]

No, 720x480 @ 4:3 AR is not square pixel, you should not get any black bars.

[Anonym00se]

Hmm, ok. I've attached two images of the results of "square pixels" and "standard 4:3". Is there a way to correct this/get the correct output?

[dellsam34]

I'm not familiar with the software you use so I cannot give my opinion, I know both options are not right due to maybe another wrong setting or wrong project properties. My guess is, it is using 720x480 as widescreen (anamorphic in the analog world) since it's flagged rec.709, I could be wrong. If the goal is to just record to tape work in lossless AVI.

[Anonym00se]

I can look into that. Instead of changing the pixel ratio in Media Encoder, I also have the option of setting a pixel ratio of 0.91 (DV NTSC) in the project settings. Is this any different?

[The 14th Doctor]

Can't you also just work with a 640x480 project?

Or any proper 4:3 resolution such as 960x720 or 1440x1080

[Anonym00se]

I don’t know, can I? I assume I could, given VHS doesn’t have a given “resolution”. As long as it’s 4:3 interlaced it would work?

[The 14th Doctor]

It should, maybe not keeping the source file interlaced. Progressive 59.94 FPS footage should work perfectly when put onto tape as it'll be interlaced to 29.97

Well, any footage would be interlaced to 29.97, but 59.94 footage to begin with should look perfectly smooth when the VHS version is de-interlaced

[dellsam34]

It all depends on what digital to analog device it will be used to feed the VCR and what digital port it will be used, I would start from that first and see what formats can accept before you render your files and finds out you can't send them to the VCR.

[Anonym00se]

Ideally, I’d be using an older computer with a composite output (I own an SGI Indy that does), but finding a compatible video codec is a whole other issue. Would be nice to have a usb capture card that can output as well?

[aramkolt]

If going for accuracy, you can make an NTSC resolution timeline on Davinci Resolve and have a Blackmagic Monitor 3G output interlaced NTSC over SDI, then use something like a Brighteye 16 to convert that to your choice of component, S-Video, or Composite. Using the Blackmagic 3G monitor bypasses all of the monitor settings and color profiles of the host machine as it is meant to be a reference monitor for the timeline and is basically like its own graphics output card. The BE16 also has proc amp controls via USB connection and the BE Control app to get the output levels exactly correct if you pair it with an analog waveform monitor, though it should do pretty ok with default values.

[davexnet]

The last time I did this I created a DVD and plugged the player into the VCR and recorded it...

[Alwyn]

I'd create a 640x480, 29.97 file, author it to a DVD with DVDStyler or your favourite DVD authoring program, then play the DVD to your VCR.

or if top-quality isn't a major factor, use one of these to convert HDMI Out to Composite In to the VCR:


[Attachment 87290 - Click to enlarge]

[Anonym00se]

All good advice! Thanks! And once I want to capture the tape the usual 720x480 would work.

Another question. I also have Davinci Resolve, and 960x720 supposedly has “square pixels” instead of “4:3 standard”. Bit confused on this whole aspect ratio thing. 960x720 is 4:3. 720x480 is 3:2. Does the tape stretch 720x480 to 4:3? With rectangular pixels? By creating a 960x720 project with square pixels and recording to tape, do I mess up the format by not making it rectangular pixels?

[dellsam34]

720x480 should work fine for both 4:3 and 16:9, you just have to tell the software to flag it accordingly, If your digital to analog converter accepts the flag it will shrink it or stretch it based on the flag, Legacy brand name SD digital to analog converters will produce a 4:3 frame automatically, modern chinese cheap crap will do weird things so I can't comment on that.

[Anonym00se]

Noted. Would setting the pixel ratio as 0.91 (DV NTSC) be ideal then?

[dellsam34]

Just use other tools like vdub or Hybrid, stay away from NLE software at least during the final encode, this is why they are not recommended on these platform for analog capture or conversion.

[Anonym00se]

Gotcha. So I’m thinking I create a high quality, 1440x960 59.94 progressive video, and then use VirtualDub to downscale it, interlace to 29.97i, and correctly flag as 4:3? Or I’m thinking to avoid complications to just make the video 1440x960 59.94p and the tape does the interlacing.

[dellsam34]

Why 1440x960? Shouldn't be 1440x1080? Or simply work in the native SD resolution 720x480.

[Anonym00se]

I thought I’d use a 2x scale of 720x480. No reason, just thought I’d use that. Is 1440x1080 a 4:3 ratio? Or is it something else and I have to flag it as 4:3

[dellsam34]

According to math it is 4:3.

[The 14th Doctor]

Yeah 1440/960 is 1.5 while 1440/1080 is 1.3

But still, wouldn't you just fed the converter a 59.94 progressive video? I never used those things myself, I do the probably overkill method of playing back videos and images on a Sony Playstation 3, with the VCR (Or in my case, Sony CCD TRV-66 Hi8 Camcorder, since it is one of the few models I know of besides the TRV-87 that has the ability to record the output of a composite/S-Video source onto Hi8/Video8 tapes) hooked up to it. Yeah.. can only monitor the PS3's output through the small LCD screen.

I know for the PS3, I am to play back 59.94 or 60 FPS 720p .mp4 files, 1080p at 60 fps is too choppy and unstable.

[Anonym00se]

Ah! Sorry, still confused. 1440x1080 is 4:3. 720x480 is 3:2. Regardless of what resolution I use, what should the pixel ratio be then? I’ll bring the footage to VirtualDub, but what should I flag the footage as? Rectangular DV pixels? 0.91? 1:1?

[The 14th Doctor]

1:1? I mean, 1440x1080 has a Pixel Aspect Ratio of 1:1, with it being a 4:3 resolution.