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It seems no one can develop a blu-ray authoring software that doesn't have some flaw or problem to work around - in the world of video editing, nothing works right!
Here's today's issue I have to find a workaround for.
So - I finally found a manageable Blu-ray authoring software that is manageable and seems to not be freezing in DVD Architect Pro 6. 5 will freeze at times, but 6 seems to be stable enough to limp something across the finish line.
I assure you my suggestion of using DVD architect is in no way, shape, or form meant as an insult to anyone - it seems someone feels that suggestion is an insult. Not sure why.
One of the unintuitive poorly designed flaws in DVD architect is that, while it is capable of authoring using files rendered to blu-ray spec without re-rendering, there's no intuitive design that makes this obvious. You are required to set rendering settings when setting up a project, it's only when you go to create the disc that it will give the option to not re-render, so long as it decides it's happy with the specs of your file.
When I discovered this in Pro 5, I was using Vegas 13, and under advice from PoisonDeathRay, I picked one of the MainConcept AVC Blu-ray render settings, set the framerate and resolution to my liking, adjusted the average bitrate to my liking, left the maximum bitrate alone, and it renders to a file that when imported to DVD Architect Pro will have the option to not re-render. This holds true in Pro 6.
But somewhere along the way, I picked up a version of Vegas Pro 21, to get off of the outdated Vegas version I was using. The render options are different here.
If I render using the same process starting with one of the Magix AVC Blu-ray render profiles, DVD Architect will claim it's not to spec and require a re-render. MultiAVCHD was fine with the files I rendered, but I couldn't get anything working with menus out of that piece of garbage, so that is not an option!
If in Vegas Pro 21 I select one of the Sony AVC Blu-ray rendering profiles, those will render to a video that DVD Architect will accept as to spec and not require a re-render, but those profiles appear to be constant bitrate and not variable, no option to enable that, no option for maximum bit rate. So that's out.
Of course the simple answer would be to switch back to Vegas 13. But of course my projects that I've spent hours laying out in Vegas Pro 21 would have to be completely redone, as Vegas 13 will not open projects from newer versions. And I can't even copy/paste between them!
Why in the heck would Magix put non-compliant Blu-ray rendering profiles into their newer product, that throws a wrench into everything I'm trying to do, and how in the heck can I get a compliant Blu-ray rendering out of Vegas Pro 21 that utilizes variable bitrates?
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This is really baffling.
For troubleshooting purposes, I rendered a test render using one of the Magix AVC Blu-ray pre-sets as is. I've looked at the Magix AVC pre-set side by side with the Vegas Pro 13 MainConcept AVC pre-sets, they look identical.
They should be rendering to the same format, same codec, same specs.
But they are not!
I can verify with 100 percent certainty, rendering from Vegas Pro 13 like this results in DVD Architect recognizing a to spec file that doesn't need a re-encode, rendering from Vegas Pro 21.0 is recognized as out of spec!
Vegas Pro 21.0 is doing something different that is rendering not to spec. -
Digging further, I found the following:
I rendered a small clip in both Vegas 13 and 21 using the same profiles and settings.
I confirmed the outcome is still the same, Vegas 13 render doesn't require a re-redner, Vegas 21 render does.
I pulled them both up in MediaInfo to compare.
Test from Vegas Pro 13:
Video
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings : CABAC / 3 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 3 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=4, N=15
Bit rate mode : Variable
Maximum bit rate : 40.0 Mb/s
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709
Test from Vegas Pro 21
Video
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 4 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=4, N=15
Bit rate mode : Variable
Maximum bit rate : 40.0 Mb/s
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709
One difference can be found - the 13 render has 3 reference frames, the 21 has 4.
BUT...
Both profiles have the reference frames setting set to 2!
It seems that both apps are ignoring this setting and doing whatever it damn well pleases despite the setting, and each is doing it differently, with 21's rogue actions resulting in non spec files!!!!!
Why, for the love of god, can no one make any software that has anything to do with video editing that actually works right!?!?!?!!? I run into stupid crap like this every damn time I try to do anything with video editing. -
mediainfo is not necessarily accurate for determining reference frames
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/359104-How-to-set-ReFrames-in-ffmpeg#post2269711
You can verify the true number of reference frames with a stream analyzer
6 reference frames for L4.1 720p59.94 is valid for BD compliance, so even if mediainfo was correct - the number of ref frames is not the reason for DVDA rejection
No idea why it doesn't work for you. A workaround would be to render some near lossless or lossless intermediate and let DVDA do the BD render, or vegas 13 if you prefer -
Have you approached them in their own Vegas/Magix support forum(s)? I am afraid though the answer will be that DVD Architect is obsolete ... In the past DVDA was sometimes bundled with MAGIX software.Originally Posted by armyofquad
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I've approached Vegas support. They tell me Vegas 21.0 is old and unlikely to get a fix, which is rather infuriating when I paid money for this software months ago, not a very professional way to carry business. And of course they're not all that interested in what DVD Architect Pro 6 can or can't do as it's so out of support.
Accurate reference frame detection or not with mediainfo, I suppose the bottom line is, what Vegas Pro 13.0 outputs and Vegas Pro 21.0 outputs with the same encodings and same settings, are different, and different in such a way that mediainfo's inaccurate detection of reference frames is consistently different, and DVD Architect Pro 6 detects Vegas Pro 21.0's output as non-compliant.
But, a generic canned response from Vegas support was for blu-ray authoring to use the mpeg-2 renderings. In there, sure enough there are blu-ray render settings, so I adjusted one to my desired progressive framerate, resolution, and compression level, rendered my projects with that, and DVD Architect Pro 6 seems to like that.
But then I had some rendering mishaps.
I continue to be baffled at the naming of Professional. For the amount of garbage "professional" products produce, they really aren't that professional. I cannot tell you how many times I've had renders that have errors in them! My .wav renders for the audio portion often times have noise in them, I have to bring them up in sound forge and verify it didn't output spots of noise. Which left me very concerned about what it's doing with the video - like I have the hours to watch every render in detail! Ridiculous that it is considered acceptable for a "professional" product to make blatant errors in outputting garbage files, with no warning or error! Unacceptable! But again, there isn't a single piece of video editing software I have found that actually works right, I've been forced to navigate this minefield of garbage to find the lesser awfuls. So, as I'm laying out my DVD Architect project, I found some of my clips had videos shorter by a few seconds to my audios. Ok - not the worst thing actually, because now I have a method of identifying garbage renders on the video end. So I re-render the trash video, more hours of time wasted, but at least machine running hours rather than me doing work hours. But then I go to create an .iso, and it crashes out.
File name: 00007.m2ts
Status: Vegmuxtw.dll::CTSWrapper::ProcThreadMain::Video buffer underflows.
Consulting AI with the error, and ruling out possibilities it listed, one thing I remembered was - one of my video/audio pairings had timings off, and it turned out it was just an extra frame of black in the video beyond where the audio ended - rendered video matched perfectly frame by frame to my project, audio aligned fine, not sure why this extra frame of black was there, but whatever, didn't look like a problem with me - but AI identified length mismatches between video and audio being a potential cause of this error. So, ok, guess I'd better make these match exact to at least rule it out. So I re-render the audio to get a longer audio that matches the exact length to the extra frame.
But now I go to create an iso, and 3 of my videos are requiring re-rendering now...
AARRRGGGGHHHHH - THIS AGAIN!!!!
It seems they found something wrong with the lengths, probably because I replaced the renders and they're thrown off that the length has grown a few seconds on a few videos, and now say some bullshit about the out being past the length, and fixing requiring moving the out to before or just at the end of the video. Except - even if I move the damn out to halfway into the video way before the end, it still says this.
Another classic case of an error message being triggered by something different than what the text describes.
So, at this point I put hours into laying this out, creating chapters, setting up the menu - scrapping and redoing would be more wasted hours. I'm fed up with this.
But by playing around, I found that removing and reimporting the offending videos fixed the require to re-render. But I didn't want to lose my chapters.
But what I found infuriatingly unintuitive - there's an option to save chapters, but no indication on how that works. You hit the save button, and nothing happens. No dialog, no option to save to a file, no notification saying "hey buddy, we totally did the thing". Just nothing.
But what I found after removing and re-adding my videos, the chapters were automatically still there, because they were saved.
Which - if that functionality was obvious, I probably would've removed and re-added my videos an hour earlier. Way to go, DVD Architect, with your intuitive design! Idiots...
So anyways, here I am, everything confirmed to match length, everything confirmed to not require re-renderings, try again to create an .iso, get further than ever before, nearly to the end, and BAM!
File name: 00011.m2ts
Status: Vegmuxtw.dll::CTSWrapper::ProcThreadMain::Video buffer underflows. -
WHAT THE HELL!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
What will it &$#^!$#%$%&#%$^%$#%^#@$%$^# take to CREATE A GOD DAMN BLU-RAY DISC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHY CAN NO ONE OR NOTHING CREATE ONE SIMPLE DAMN DISC WITH A SIMPLE MENU WITHOUT HAVING TO JUMP THROUGH SO MANY DAMN HOOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I AM BEYOND OUTRAGED AT THIS, I HAVE GONE THROUGH SO MANY HOURS AND SO MANY SOFTWARES, AND NOTHING WORKS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HOW IS THIS LEGAL OR ACCEPTABLE!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!? -
Authoring Works 7 has a free trial.
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It's very telling that so often a go to is to try a different app.
At this point, I'm done trying different blu-ray authoring apps. I've redone this project so many times over so many hours. I can only take so much.
DVD Architect is the only app that actually has any sane or logical navigation within the app.
At least I've now figured out that it creates an m2ts file for each file I've imported, and so I know that it's the 11th one in my project that is causing this error. So perhaps a timing issue came up there. Even though everything looks fine. I'll try removing and re-adding that one, and try again.
I've also relocated the temp file so I can monitor what it's creating as it does the creation, and next time I can try to view the flawed file to verify their 11 is my 11 - I already verified their 1 is my 1, but I can see screwy software somehow going out of order of how I have them arranged.
It's quite infuriating that these softwares are designed so awfully that one must pick their poison so to speak, navigate through the poor design choices, flaws, and bugs to work around them, and then come up with a workflow that frequently involves verification steps and redoing work.
It would be nice if someone would make just one product that actually works right for once. -
@armyofquad: I think I mentioned some time ago in one of your earlier threads that correct buffer management (=strict compliance with buffer size and maximum bitrate preventing buffer underruns or overflows) is key to compliant blu-ray encoding. You won't see this with MediaInfo. You would need a buffer verifier tool.
In order for the video stream to fullfill this requirement a 2-pass encoding is typically required. The x264 encoder for example allows to specify --vbv-bufsize and --vbv-maxrate, but AFAIK there is no warranty that the encoded stream will always be compliant for 1-pass encoding.
When the picky DVD Architect meets during its authoring process a buffer under- or overflow it will abort. Fixing it requires a re-encode.
I don't know if this explains your failures, as your payware should actually produce compliant stream for its "blu-ray" encoder setting. No idea.
Some info about blu-ray compliant encoding - in case you have not already seen it - is found here:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154533
https://web.archive.org/web/20211016213149/http://www.x264bluray.com/home/1080i-p.
I am running out of ideas .....
(For home video purpose "Pro" versions are a often a marketing gimmick, selling some more features at a higher price.) -
I'm running out of ideas too.
And it's clear that Pro means nothing.
This time, after trying to "fix" file 11, it bombed on file 10.
And for my convenience, DVD Architect will automatically clear out the temp files immediately upon encountering an error, before I even have a chance to read the error and click ok.
Which means I need to find a way to trick it into leaving the damn files alone if I want to review them - it is such a pain that frequently I have to find ways to fool my computer and software into doing what I want it to. -
Right now my current plan A is to keep running through trial and error attempts at creating an iso with my current files, I'm so close, I should be able to inch this across the finish line.
My plan B might be giving up on avoiding a re-render. My intent was to control the quality/rate in the editing process, and have Authoring be simply that, but it seems the world has stacked everything against that mindset. At this point, not re-rendering is trying to long term save time by not having to have the time of 2 renders in the workflow - but rendering on the edit to a high bitrate format, to be re-rendered on the author, at this point would save me time than playing this maddening game of fighting the system.
Meanwhile - I seem to have made some progress on plan A.
This time around, it bombed out on file 7. But while DVD Architect was creating the files, I removed modify permissions from the temp folder, leaving it unable to remove the files once done.
Sure enough, file 7 is not the 7th listed file, or 7th played file. But now I know which file it's choking on. So now I can verify it's timing, remove and re-add it, and give it another go... -
Ok, finally limped the first disc across the finish line.
So, I think the issues I ran into that kept causing problems:
DVD Architect Pro 5 is an unstable piece of crap that freezes if projects reach a certain size - 6 is more stable.
Vegas Pro 21.0 renders AVC for Blu-ray in a way that is different from older versions of Vegas, which DVD Architect do not recognize as Blu-ray compliant. No one really cares to fix this.
Vegas Pro 21.0 can render mpeg 2 to Blu-ray compliant files that DVD Architect will recognize as Blu-ray compliant.
Vegas Pro 21.0's rendering is an instable mess! All .wav files should be opened and reviewed to check for bursts of noise. Once a verified .wav render is complete, mpeg renders should be compared to the verified .wav to ensure exact length to the frame. A bad render will likely be short by a small amount.
If you import a bad render or a video that doesn't align perfectly with the wav into a DVD Architect project, DVD Architect will act as if all is well until muxing.
If you discover a bad file in your project, and render a new one - having the project pick up the new file in place of the old one will also cause timing discrepancies. This can cause DVD Architect to think the file requires a re-render, or can cause an issue during muxing. So be sure you don't take the shortcut of rendering a new file to the same name as the old file, and expecting DVD Architect to just take the new file and move along like all is well - you'll need to remove the problem file from the project, and bring in the new file. If you have chapters to preserve, you can open the project and have it automatically replace the old with the new, verify your chapters, save the chapters, delete the video, re-add the video, and fix any menu or navigation settings.
If you do reach a point that your project is unable to mux and finish to burn a disc or create an iso, and you need to trace down the problem, make sure you know what is set as the temp folder, and when you start your .iso build, find the folder it creates. In my case, ~bdmux27268. Right click the folder and select properties, tap the security tab, click advanced, click disable inheritance, select "convert inherited permissions...." click ok. Then, from the security tab, click edit, and unselect "modify" from all listed account and click apply. This will cause the folder to be in a state that it, and it's contents, cannot be deleted. This way, when DVD Architect bombs out, you can browse into the BDMV\STREAM folder, and look through the files to see what completed successfully, and what video it's bombing out on. That video likely has a problem, and either needs to be removed and re-added to the project, or re-rendered, and re-added to the project. Make sure to save your chapters before removing, and then re-adding it or a replacement.
A ridiculous amount of trouble to go to, but workflows like this will continue to be necessary for as long as software developers continue to shovel out the shit they do when it comes to video editing software. -
Ughhh.......after I verify my .iso, and start burning a disc, I discover.
....THE BLOODY THING RENDERED WITHOUT ANY DAMN SOUND!!!!!!!!
I ^%$#!@^#@ hate video editing software developers. They have cost me so much time I will never get back. @^##$%$% morons! -
Don't blame me.....I was rooting for HD-DVD.
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You win the internet today.Originally Posted by hech54
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Apparently my mortal sin was another consideration of efficiency.
Given that I'm dealing with VHS home movies, the audio is mono, as all audio was shot with 1 microphone.
There are some options there, Blu-ray will support .wav or dolby digital. I had considered that for the quality of the camcorder audio, may as well encode to dolby digital. And DVD Architect has the option to do the rendering from .wav to dolby digital, so there's no sense in doing that ahead of time.
But I figured it would be logical to render my .wav to mono, for efficiency in half the size of space taken up in storing the files in this process, and also due to that being better to minimize any noise that may be present across the stereo/dual mono soundtrack - similar to how it's often a better option to mono sum the stereo output of a turntable when listening to mono records.
Anyways, as I laid out my project, I found that I wasn't in a range of the 50GB limit that dolby digital encoding was required, and the amount of space saved wouldn't allow me to add another chunk of video - it would be quite an effort to come that close to the 50GB limit that encoding the audio would allow you to add more video. So - if it isn't necessary to compress the audio, and DVD Architect is saying a re-render isn't required for the mono .wav files it detected, I should be all good, right?
Well - if the programmers of DVD Architect followed the common sense rule of making a program idiot proof, it would've detected my .wav files as mono, and out of compliance, and would've required a re-render, either to stereo .wav, or to stereo dolby digital. But, alas, DVD Architect, like ALL video editing softwares, was not designed with a mindset of idiot proofing. And as has been well established in this forum, I might be an idiot at some of these things.
Anyways, taking a moment to go through and rechannel all my mono .wav files to stereo, reopening the project, and creating a new .iso image, I now have a project created with sound.
TLDR - DVD Architect will recognize mono .wav files as compliant and let you burn without a rerender on the audio. Due to the lack of compliance, you'll get a silent disc. -
Well - spoke too soon on the unnecessary sound compression.
Another inconsistency. 50GB doesn't mean 50GB.
Says right on the spindle of DL Blu-ray discs - 50GB.
Spaced used indicator of my project shows 48.8GB. Which basic math tells us is less than 50GB.
If I adjust the spaced used indicator to show percentage rather than size, it shows 98%, suggesting a 2% buffer.
My created .iso image is 47.3GB. Also under 50GB.
Everything up to this point has told me I'm within spec to burn to a 50GB DL disc.
However...
I open my image in imgburn, and when I go to burn it notifies me
Image Size: 24,845,056 Sectors (48,525 MB)
Disc size: 24,438,784 Sectors (47.732 MB)
Well, thank you ImgBurn, for providing me with accurate specs.
Boo on everyone else for making the false and misleading claim of 50GB being the limit!!!!!
Boo on everyone that lists the spec for dual layer discs being 50GB, this is a lazy estimate!
Boo on DVD Architect for giving an inaccurate measure of the project's limit!
Just completely unprofessional all around!
Do better, people!!!!!!! -
Ok, it's been confirmed the universe is conspiring against me.
While creating the new .iso using dolby digital compression on the audio, my hard drive died.
My backup is a week old, so now I lost the last week of re-renders.
Can I catch just one ^$#%#@$%$%#$^ break for once in this project? -
Ok - problematic drive extracted from case. When put into S-ATA dock, it fires back up and is "readable".
Refreshing my external backup B with synctoy now, and hoping that runs to completion before it dies next.
Will make sure to trade with my offsite this week and refresh that while at it.
Not sure what to do if it stays up longterm. I don't trust it - might be time to replace it. It's been filling up, may be a good excuse to upgrade my internal storage from 4TB to 8... -
This is a thread that could easily be around 15 years or even more. I've been there, trying to make BD from HDV videos without compression. This forum was buzzing with topics like that. We all gave up storming the Universe and started to buy media players (at that time they started to pop up) or other alternatives (web, etc.) only realizing how much time was saved.
If you intend to give some special family members your video, you are better off just giving them a thumb-drive and also possibly INCLUDE a media player and HDMI cable to just connect it to a TV. -
I reject the notion that I should have to give family members a homework assignment to learn new tech vs. providing a disc that simply works in their existing setup!
Ridiculous that the industry would rather we uproot people's lives rather than they actually design software that #$%@^@#$%@#$%ing works right!
I am providing a set of files alongside the discs. I'm sure the files alone would be greatly appreciated, and considered enough. But I know how easy it is to put something aside to get back to later, and have it collect dust, if it doesn't fit into the simplicity of our current day by day life. I wish to provide that simplicity.
Anyways....as outlined here.....I have hit upon a working workflow, and if my backup HD holds up for the current creation, I will have a working disc 1 by the end of the day. And a working disc 1 means a working workflow for the rest of the discs. -
Always entertaining reading Army battle on. So much gnashing of teeth when a one-stop edit-encode-author-bluray is all that is needed. Magix Movie Studio does it.
Even if you use your previously-encoded file, keep the bitrate up and I'll bet you will never know the difference when you re-encode to Bluray; at least your viewers, who would apparently struggle with USB sticks, wouldn't notice the diff.
A proper VHS capture is never one channel "mono" ie one channel. It will/should always be two-channel (at least mono, maybe stereo if you have a flash cam or it's off a TV broadcast) if you're using a half-decent digitiser and cabling (Y splitter if you can't duplicate in software after capture). -
Movie Studio is a piece of crap software. I wouldn't touch it with a 20 foot pole for editing, Vegas is much better. And it has no option to author with a re-render.
A big time suck was playing around with other softwares, such as that, after the DVD Architect Pro 5 debacle, before finding a newer version of DVD Architect that works right.
You are technically right that the proper VHS capture has a dual mono stereo capture. But when rendering, I chose to render to mono. My lengthy explanation about my initial intent to encode to dolby digital was to explain why I didn't consider the compatibility of mono wav with blu-ray specs when making that choice - it was mostly to act as a digital "Y splitter" on the way to dolby digital. But when DVD Architect Pro 6 claimed I was within the size limit, and the mono .wav files were to spec - I gave it a go. And learned more flaws in DVD Architect Pro 6. And shared them here, so now you know too.
Perhaps a re-render wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, and considering the time it took to get to a re-render free workflow, perhaps I may have saved a little time accepting a re-render. But at the end of the day, I'm happy with the workflow I ended up with, I've kept my editing in the software I'm familiar with, I have verification steps for the stupid rendering blunders that Vegas makes, I have a working version of DVD Architect that makes acceptable menus with ease, and I have a working Disc 1 burned, and am halfway through my editing and renders for Disc 2. That I was able to get there and avoid re-renders, I'll take that as a win. -
Rubbish, but each to his own.Originally Posted by Army
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"Format settings : CABAC / 3 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 3 frames"
Take this output and run it thru DVDA and check this output and see if DVDA changed the Reference frames. File is located here BDMV/STREAM.
I checked a Blu-ray I have and it says "4 frames" -
You're all over the place then blame software. No Hollywood studio uses any of these software to put out BD. Encoding is done separately from authoring.
make video everyday -
That player would be a bonus and kind of to secure it, gift. You do not necessarily need it, unless recipient has a very old TV.Originally Posted by armyofquad
You seriously underestimate a power of simplicity. Encoding your files as you want into mp4, short videos, as you would create chapters, name them properly in alphabetic order. That IS the menu basically, you can use sub-directories etc.
Blu-Ray is not meant to be for us, users, it is a corp. tool to make their profits by distributing a content that is protected and playback is guaranteed using schemes that make sure of it. Im not complaining. This is how it is. There are even better alternatives.
Anyway, I understand you try to impress someone, I was there too, but it is not worthy. Some people really do not care about menus, or if you create a menu scheme that differs from standard Hollywood schemes, it can even irritate them.
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Are you kidding me? Cloud based access with monthly fees that keep content out of our control and prevent us from every truly owning the things we pay for are the corporate models to make their profits. Blu-ray is the option to actually own the things we pay for.Originally Posted by _Al_
It is inevitable that we will eventually be unable to own anything anymore - but they will have to claw my physical media from my cold, dead hands!!! -
Just burn your BD, without menu.
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