Encoding for Blu-ray issues

[armyofquad]

It seems no one can develop a blu-ray authoring software that doesn't have some flaw or problem to work around - in the world of video editing, nothing works right!

Here's today's issue I have to find a workaround for.

So - I finally found a manageable Blu-ray authoring software that is manageable and seems to not be freezing in DVD Architect Pro 6. 5 will freeze at times, but 6 seems to be stable enough to limp something across the finish line.

I assure you my suggestion of using DVD architect is in no way, shape, or form meant as an insult to anyone - it seems someone feels that suggestion is an insult. Not sure why.

One of the unintuitive poorly designed flaws in DVD architect is that, while it is capable of authoring using files rendered to blu-ray spec without re-rendering, there's no intuitive design that makes this obvious. You are required to set rendering settings when setting up a project, it's only when you go to create the disc that it will give the option to not re-render, so long as it decides it's happy with the specs of your file.

When I discovered this in Pro 5, I was using Vegas 13, and under advice from PoisonDeathRay, I picked one of the MainConcept AVC Blu-ray render settings, set the framerate and resolution to my liking, adjusted the average bitrate to my liking, left the maximum bitrate alone, and it renders to a file that when imported to DVD Architect Pro will have the option to not re-render. This holds true in Pro 6.

But somewhere along the way, I picked up a version of Vegas Pro 21, to get off of the outdated Vegas version I was using. The render options are different here.

If I render using the same process starting with one of the Magix AVC Blu-ray render profiles, DVD Architect will claim it's not to spec and require a re-render. MultiAVCHD was fine with the files I rendered, but I couldn't get anything working with menus out of that piece of garbage, so that is not an option!

If in Vegas Pro 21 I select one of the Sony AVC Blu-ray rendering profiles, those will render to a video that DVD Architect will accept as to spec and not require a re-render, but those profiles appear to be constant bitrate and not variable, no option to enable that, no option for maximum bit rate. So that's out.

Of course the simple answer would be to switch back to Vegas 13. But of course my projects that I've spent hours laying out in Vegas Pro 21 would have to be completely redone, as Vegas 13 will not open projects from newer versions. And I can't even copy/paste between them!

Why in the heck would Magix put non-compliant Blu-ray rendering profiles into their newer product, that throws a wrench into everything I'm trying to do, and how in the heck can I get a compliant Blu-ray rendering out of Vegas Pro 21 that utilizes variable bitrates?

[armyofquad]

This is really baffling.

For troubleshooting purposes, I rendered a test render using one of the Magix AVC Blu-ray pre-sets as is. I've looked at the Magix AVC pre-set side by side with the Vegas Pro 13 MainConcept AVC pre-sets, they look identical.

They should be rendering to the same format, same codec, same specs.

But they are not!

I can verify with 100 percent certainty, rendering from Vegas Pro 13 like this results in DVD Architect recognizing a to spec file that doesn't need a re-encode, rendering from Vegas Pro 21.0 is recognized as out of spec!

Vegas Pro 21.0 is doing something different that is rendering not to spec.

[armyofquad]

Digging further, I found the following:

I rendered a small clip in both Vegas 13 and 21 using the same profiles and settings.

I confirmed the outcome is still the same, Vegas 13 render doesn't require a re-redner, Vegas 21 render does.

I pulled them both up in MediaInfo to compare.

Test from Vegas Pro 13:
Video
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings : CABAC / 3 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 3 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=4, N=15
Bit rate mode : Variable
Maximum bit rate : 40.0 Mb/s
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709

Test from Vegas Pro 21
Video
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings : CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 4 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=4, N=15
Bit rate mode : Variable
Maximum bit rate : 40.0 Mb/s
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709


One difference can be found - the 13 render has 3 reference frames, the 21 has 4.

BUT...

Both profiles have the reference frames setting set to 2!

It seems that both apps are ignoring this setting and doing whatever it damn well pleases despite the setting, and each is doing it differently, with 21's rogue actions resulting in non spec files!!!!!

Why, for the love of god, can no one make any software that has anything to do with video editing that actually works right!?!?!?!!? I run into stupid crap like this every damn time I try to do anything with video editing.

[poisondeathray]

mediainfo is not necessarily accurate for determining reference frames
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/359104-How-to-set-ReFrames-in-ffmpeg#post2269711

You can verify the true number of reference frames with a stream analyzer

6 reference frames for L4.1 720p59.94 is valid for BD compliance, so even if mediainfo was correct - the number of ref frames is not the reason for DVDA rejection

No idea why it doesn't work for you. A workaround would be to render some near lossless or lossless intermediate and let DVDA do the BD render, or vegas 13 if you prefer

[Sharc]

Why in the heck would Magix put non-compliant Blu-ray rendering profiles into their newer product, that throws a wrench into everything I'm trying to do, and how in the heck can I get a compliant Blu-ray rendering out of Vegas Pro 21 that utilizes variable bitrates?

Have you approached them in their own Vegas/Magix support forum(s)? I am afraid though the answer will be that DVD Architect is obsolete ... In the past DVDA was sometimes bundled with MAGIX software.