Improve Hauppauge USB-Live2 capture quality

[lollo]

Allright, here it is - I got something in Italian for You :
https://mega.nz/file/aABxUDTD#iSn_MK-M4Y79MeiwsY4uVhXOdAuy_mlaGhixqGcyXFQ

Thanks

Is that supposed to be a NTSC source? Not sure if the frame rate is ok, I do not have Lagarith installed and AviSynth sources give me strange frame rate. Maybe some user with Lagarith codec can help here. Alwin? Sharc?

[Alwyn]

You can't be a videophile if you don't have LAGS installed.

VDub is showing 29.00. TFMing it takes it to 23.199.

As far as I can tell, the frame pattern is generally 1234566, but with the occasional missing duplicate.

The boxing shows interlacing but when I double-rate deinterlace, I'm only getting movement on every second frame, as though it is PSF. Also, the field order swaps occasionally during the boxing sequences.

I think the footy sequences are straight PSF.

[Aro]

It's a PAL tape.
I wonder if my computer is not the problem. When I run Virtual Dub, my computer inevitably crashes - and with Amarec, only coded I find to be working is Lagarith (to the extent that it does). The Hauppauge tool works fine, but from what I read - that's not the way to get the most out of the VHS tapes.

Perhaps You can advice me on that... If I was to get a computer just for digitising, should I look to have an older OS on it? For now, I'm mostly experimenting and trying to figure it all out, but in couple months I'll have thousands of VHS tapes with a task to digitise them over the next X years (Decades?), so I'd like to do it properly.

Thanks for Your time guys, I appreciate it!

[lollo]

Thanks Alwin, but I was asking about the frame rate, not the field/frame architecture. Avisynth does not give me a clear picture across its readers.

[Sharc]

Thanks Alwin, but I was asking about the frame rate, not the field/frame architecture. Avisynth does not give me a clear picture across its readers.

Frame rate? I don't use lagarith but the file is a mess of poorly deinterlaced or PsF frames, dropped/inserted fields, and true interlaced IMO. Depending on the Avisynth source filter one can therefore get different "estimates" of the framerate. Maybe it should be nominal 29.97fps.

Maybe use something like

LWLibavVideoSource("SampleVHS.avi")
AssumeTFF()
QTGMC()
AssumeFPS(59.94)

Some more info from ffmpeg where one could conclude on 28.999 fps:

[lollo]

Let's start from a know source, one of my PAL capture at 25fps.

When I open the capture with VirtualDub (for example) I see the correct frame rate reported:


When I open the capture with AviSynth Info() through AviSource (HuffYUV installed) filter I see the correct frame rate reported:


When I open the capture with AviSynth through the FFmpegSource2 filter I see the wrong frame rate reported:


When I open the capture with AviSynth Info() through FFmpegSource2 filter I see the wrong frame rate reported:


When I open the capture with AviSynth through the LWLibavVideoSource filter I see the wrong frame rate reported:


When I open the capture with AviSynth Info() through LWLibavVideoSource filter I see the wrong frame rate reported:


I cannot use AviSource on the sample posted by the OP because I do not have Lagarith codec intalled, so when using LWLibavVideoSource (for example) I see a frame rate that I do not trust:
VirtualDub Fileinfo


AviSYnth Info()


In addition, when I number the frames and check versus the time in VirtualDub (for what is worth), I see the same bad frame rate:


while on my reference source with AviSource I see the correct relative numbers (frame rate versus time):


In summary, I do not trust the filters parsing the video for frame rate report, and just asked what's the situation when you open the source of the OP with the AviSource filter, that I cannot use.

The versions of my FFmpegSource2 and LWLibavVideoSource are "ffms2_87bae19" and "LSMASHSource-AviSynth-plugin-r929-msvc-32bit" respectively.

[Alwyn]

@aro, you absolutely do not need a old computer to do this sort of stuff. You have a good digitiser in the Live2 that works well with Win 10/11and provided you can give it a S-Video signal from an onboard TBC or a external stabiliser such as a Panasonic DVD recorder, you should have no trouble getting good captures.

That said, if you've got thousands of tapes to do, another computer would be almost mandatory because you really shouldn't be doing stuff on the capture machine while it's capturing. That is, capture on one then move the capture files to your fast machine for processing.

AmarecTV will only display the available system codecs; if you haven't installed any apart from LAGS, that is probably the only one you can choose.

As mentioned, that file has all sorts of issues that we wouldn't see on a good capture. I'd try another capture from a different tape; that will show whether it is your setup or a faulty first tape.

Thanks Alwin, but I was asking about the frame rate, not the field/frame architecture.

I did tell you what VDub thought the frame rate was. Then for info, I threw in what TFM changed it to. I thought that with your expert knowledge of AVISynth you could work it out from that.

By what method did you expect/suggest me to use to work it out given I have LAGS installed but you don't?

The rest of my comments were not an answer to your question; they were general observations only, for the forum.

[Alwyn]

@Lollo, this isn't meant as being judgemental, but why can't/won't you install LAGS?

[lollo]

By what method did you expect/suggest me to use to work it out given I have LAGS installed but you don't?

Just
- a snapshot of the frame rate VirtualDub reports when opening directly the file using File -> File information...
- a snapshot of the frame rate displayed when you open the source in VirtualDub thorugh an AviSynth script using AviSouce("<fileName>").Info()

@Lollo, this isn't meant as being judgemental, but why can't/won't you install LAGS?

I am just reticent to install something I would never use (sort of maniac to have my PC fully optimized for performances, whith clean registry settings and installed programs/codecs).
The source plugins in AviSynth and the internal decoders in VLC allows to whatch/analyse the various videos without installing anything. But for frame rate analysis apparently is not the case.

In general, the source from the OP is a PAL tape, but captured at 720x480 and with a weird frame rate (my speculation). Then my concerns to give a proper feedback to him.

[Sharc]

I don't get this variety of framereates for my captures.
The exception is Aro's weird file:
a) LWLibavVideoSource: 28.999fps (same what ffmpeg tools report for the videostream)
b) ffms2 (=ffmpegsource2): 25.073fps
c) BSVideoSource ("successor" of ffms2): 25.073fps

Filters b) and c) decode video and audio; a) is video only

[lollo]

I don't get this variety of framereates for my captures.
The exception is Aro's weird file:
a) LWLibavVideoSource: 28.999fps (same what ffmpeg tools report for the videostream)
b) ffms2 (=ffmpegsource2): 25.073fps
c) BSVideoSource ("successor" of ffms2): 25.073fps

Filters b) and c) decode video and audio; a) is video only

We agree that Aro's capture is weird.

To OP: can you post a snapshot of your settings and eventually recapture the same segment using the proper settings described in the guides (i.e. Alwin's guide or the digitalfaq guide I linked)?

[Sharc]

@Lollo, this isn't meant as being judgemental, but why can't/won't you install LAGS?

Long time ago there has been a doubt by a reputed member/x264 developper at doom9 about the stability (possible glitches) of the Lagarith algo. Since then no change (fix?) has been made AFAIK.
Just for info. No proof of anything.

[Aro]

To OP: can you post a snapshot of your settings and eventually recapture the same segment using the proper settings described in the guides (i.e. Alwin's guide or the digitalfaq guide I linked)?

Yes, of course. Those should be settings just on "Recording" site - codec, frame rate, bit rate and such?
Also, could You please link me to the guides? If You posted it, I missed it and I can't seem to find it.

Does it need to be the same tape? I think there are the same issues with other tapes also and it can take me some time to find the same exact fragment of the tape.
Would it be beneficial for me to provide a sample from Hauppauge software as well, for comparision?

Thanks for Your time, everyone.

[Sharc]

Just
- a snapshot of the frame rate VirtualDub reports when opening directly the file using File -> File information...

FWIW this is what Vdub2 64 and 32bit v2.1.3.667 reports here for Aro's file, using lagarith: 28.999fps. Same as LWLibavVideoSource and ffmpeg tools.

[Attachment 85489 - Click to enlarge]

[Aro]

Allright, I found this guide:
https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12986-amarectv-frame-inserts.html

Turns out I had:
Deinterlacing: Auto
Scan Line Doubler: Auto
Bitrate: 128 kbps

So I changed it to settings recommended in the guide. I still got the same error pop up, though.
Then I used HuffYuv(I had some issues installing it, but managed to do it now).. On initial try, the error popped up again, but then it disappeared.
I know I took up quite a bit of Your time already, but perhaps You could take a look at the sample of capture with HuffYuv? No rush of course, but I'd appreciate it:
https://mega.nz/file/WJQ1ASbJ#Gs1nhErT4uyAjYmvYkuDhkAwPvFokA-2KIHNRoatopI

[Alwyn]

My AmarecTV guide.

[lollo]

I know I took up quite a bit of Your time already, but perhaps You could take a look at the sample of capture with HuffYuv? No rush of course, but I'd appreciate it:
https://mega.nz/file/WJQ1ASbJ#Gs1nhErT4uyAjYmvYkuDhkAwPvFokA-2KIHNRoatopI

Is now a "proper" NTSC capture at 720x480 and 29.97 frame per seconds. It should not be a PAL source???

The original AmarecTV guide is here: https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Amarectv_configuration, digitalfaq guide (with my additions) is derived from this one, and the Alwin's guide is derived from digitalfaq one.

Use the appropriate settings for a PAL capture!

[Aro]

Use the appropriate settings for a PAL capture!

Ok, I think I figured it out. On the graph-1 page I had a format which is recommended for NTSC, not PAL - indeed.
Thanks for those guides. As it is probably obvious to everyone by know, I'm not only new to the VHS world, but also not very tech-savy.. those were incredibly helpful.

This window with error popping up now also disappeared, whether I'm using HuffYuv or Lagarith! The quality also looks very nice to me. Ha, really happy. Thank You guys so much! For patience as well.
Here is the sample - using HuffYuv - if You wanted to take a look:
https://mega.nz/file/3dpw1Q5I#0KH_gS0Vyce45Co8VDqTeyZLVJV0z0Sx-n54TChUgjA

[lollo]

Is the same file as before (wrong 720x480 and 29.97fps settings)

[Aro]

Man, I'm very sorry. I posted wrong link (Getting tired!)
https://mega.nz/file/3dpw1Q5I#0KH_gS0Vyce45Co8VDqTeyZLVJV0z0Sx-n54TChUgjA

[lollo]

Still wrong. Capture 720x576!

[Aro]

Ok, I'm an idiot... and It's been a long day. I can only say sorry again.

Hope I used up all of the possible stupid mistakes at this point:
https://mega.nz/file/6QJyEDJL#zJcHpyXGC3Hz0uumkbfXC9yLtuQPzL-0lToFAA8j-r4

[lollo]

Do not worry, we all started with mistakes.

Now the capture is ok in term of frame rate, and with the right settings you should not have any error/warning message anymore:






The capture is not too bad, compared to your first there are less dropouts (defects in the tape).

The levels are ok:




The source is progressive until frame 317, then becomes interlaced. It should be processed with caution.

I ignore if you're familiar with Aviynth, but you can choose to deinterlace at double frame rate everything (with a penaly for the progressive section) [QTGMC(preset="slow", matchpreset="slow", matchpreset2="slow", sourcematch=3, tr1=2, tr2=1, NoiseTR=2, sharpness=0.1)] or at single rate with automatic detection (with penalty for the interlaced part) [TDeint(mode=0, full=false, cthresh=9, chroma=false, MI=16, edeint=QTGMC(FPSDivisor=2), emask=TMM(mode=0), slow=2)]

Then a basic denoise and sharpening [TemporalDegrain2(degrainTR=3)] [LSFmod(defaults="slow")] can be applied to improve a little bit the overall look.

[Sharc]

The source is progressive until frame 317, then becomes interlaced. It should be processed with caution.

Basically agree. The progressive sections are actually phase shifted (not unusual for broadcasting) and should better be TFM()-ed instead of deinterlaced with QTGMC() or whatever deinterlacer.

[lollo]

Yes,you're right.

Generally I never apply QTGMC on progressive material that has interlaced content also, so I did not play attention to the fields architecture of the progressive section of the source.

A simple AssumeTFF().TFM(order=1, mode=0, PP=0, slow=2, field=1) fixes the progressive and phase-shifted segment:


But once done (cleaned the progressive section) we are back to the choice of my previous post (or to have variable frame rate, but that's another story)

[Alwyn]

Just when I thought I was getting a handle on this stuff, along comes an "obviously" interlaced video that is progressive!

[Aro]

I'll be honest - I'd need to study the topic and read about it more. For now, a lot of what You say goes over my head. Perhaps it will be my next stage of development in the VHS world, but for now - I'm happy at least I got the basics right and once again, thanks for the time and help!

[Aro]

Hello everyone,
I took some time off as it took some time to transport the VHS collection I really wanted to digitise - my previous post were just some experiments. Everything seems to be working great (Again, huge thanks for all the responses, don't think I'd figure it out without You, lollo in particular). I'm very happy with the result, there's just one question I have.
Is it normal, that on Mediainfo, I get Aspect Ratio of either 5:4 for Pal or 3:2 for NTSC videos? Below example with PAL rip using AmarecTV. Shouldn't it be 4:3? It looks ok, but I'd like to make sure I'm not doing something wrong.

[Attachment 87098 - Click to enlarge]

Thanks guys!

[Alwyn]

All is good: AVIs of this nature do not store an aspect ratio flag in the metadata, so progs, including MediaInfo just use the frame size to calculate it.

During processing for export/final display, you can either resize it to a 4:3 frame or set the PAR so that the playing program knows how to display it properly.

[lollo]

or set the DAR if you end-up with a 704(720)x576 frame (just as completion)