Help identify proper frame rate? Every other frame is duplicated

[StrangeMutant]

Hi!

Hoping this might be a simple question for you guys to figure out. I have some old raw DV footage that was captured quite a while back from a Digital8 tape, but it appears every other frame is duplicated.

My goal is to edit it in Final Cut Pro (I'm on a Mac), and export it properly, but can't figure out what to do to get rid of the duplicated frames. I've tried all custom frame rates it lets you try and none of them get ride of duplicated frames.

Any clue what is up with these files? Here is the Mediainfo from the file:

Format : MPEG-4

Commercial name : DVCPRO

Format profile : QuickTime

Codec ID : qt 0000.00 (qt )

File size : 762 MiB

Duration : 3 min 29 s

Overall bit rate : 30.4 Mb/s

Frame rate : 29.970 FPS

Recorded date : 2005-10-28 21:09:44.000

Encoded date : 2012-03-06 23:04:08 UTC

Tagged date : 2012-03-06 23:07:38 UTC

Writing library : Apple QuickTime

com.apple.proapps.modelname : DCR-TRV110

com.apple.proapps.cameraID : 0x80046010176bec8

com.apple.proapps.cameraName : DCR-TRV110

com.apple.proapps.clipID : 2D85CD65-97A3-48B5-B616-CBB479403C60

com.apple.proapps.ingestDate.description : 2012-03-06 23:04:08 +0000

com.apple.proapps.originalFormat : DV/DVCPRO - NTSC (16:9)

com.apple.proapps.mediaRate : 30.000

com.apple.proapps.timecodeFormat : Drop

com.apple.quicktime.creationdate : 2005-10-28T21:09:44-0400

com.apple.quicktime.make : Apple

com.apple.quicktime.model : MacBookPro8,2

com.apple.quicktime.software : Mac OS X 10.7.3 (11D50)



Video

ID : 2

Format : DV

Commercial name : DVCPRO

Codec ID : dvc

Duration : 3 min 29 s

Source duration : 3 min 30 s

Bit rate mode : Constant

Bit rate : 24.4 Mb/s

Width : 720 pixels

Clean aperture width : 704 pixels

Height : 480 pixels

Clean aperture height : 480 pixels

Display aspect ratio : 16:9

Original display aspect ratio : 16:9

Clean aperture display aspect ratio : 16:9

Frame rate mode : Constant

Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS

Original frame rate : 29.970 (29970/1000) FPS

Standard : NTSC

Color space : YUV

Chroma subsampling : 4:1:1

Bit depth : 8 bits

Scan type : Interlaced

Scan type, store method : Interleaved fields

Scan order : Bottom Field First

Compression mode : Lossy

Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.357

Time code of first frame : 00:08:40;22

Time code source : Subcode time code

Stream size : 720 MiB (94%)

Source stream size : 720 MiB (95%)

Title : Core Media Video

Encoding settings : ae mode=full automatic / wb mode=automatic / white balance= / fcm=manual focus

Encoded date : 2012-03-06 23:04:08 UTC

Tagged date : 2012-03-06 23:07:38 UTC

Color primaries : BT.601 NTSC

Transfer characteristics : BT.709

Matrix coefficients : BT.601



Audio #1

ID : 1

Format : PCM

Format settings : Little / Signed

Codec ID : sowt

Duration : 3 min 29 s

Source duration : 3 min 29 s

Bit rate mode : Constant

Bit rate : 1 536 kb/s

Channel(s) : 2 channels

Channel layout : L R

Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz

Bit depth : 16 bits

Stream size : 38.4 MiB (5%)

Source stream size : 38.4 MiB (5%)

Title : Core Media Audio

Encoded date : 2012-03-06 23:04:08 UTC

Tagged date : 2012-03-06 23:07:38 UTC



Audio #2

ID : 2-0

Format : PCM

Format settings : Big / Signed

Muxing mode : DV

Muxing mode, more info : Muxed in Video #1

Duration : 3 min 29 s

Bit rate mode : Constant

Bit rate : 1 536 kb/s

Channel(s) : 2 channels

Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz

Bit depth : 16 bits

Stream size : 38.4 MiB (5%)



Other

ID : 3

Type : Time code

Format : QuickTime TC

Duration : 3 min 29 s

Bit rate mode : Constant

Frame rate : 30.000 FPS

Time code of first frame : 00:08:40;22

Time code of last frame : 00:12:10;20

Time code, stripped : No

Title : Core Media Time Code

Default : No

Encoded date : 2012-03-06 23:04:08 UTC

Tagged date : 2012-03-06 23:07:38 UTC

[LigH.de]

"Every other frame" is not really a description I understand confidently. It does not really sound like typical Film/NTSC 2:3 Telecine pattern.

Are you able to show us a sequence of at least half a second with mostly straight horizontal motion?

[jagabo]

It says 29.97 fps (30000/1001). NTSC DV is always 29.97 fps, interlaced. If every other frame is a duplicate (AABBCCDDEE) the underlying frame rate is 14.99 fps (15000/1001). If you mean every 2nd frame is duplicated (ABBCDDEFF...) the frame rate is 19.98 (20000/1001). The latter is common for 8mm to video transfers.

[StrangeMutant]

"Every other frame" is not really a description I understand confidently. It does not really sound like typical Film/NTSC 2:3 Telecine pattern.

Are you able to show us a sequence of at least half a second with mostly straight horizontal motion?

Thanks for the reply!

Here is a 12 second clip. Careful, it's loud! (from an old basement gig)
https://we.tl/t-8Y7C5LZt5Dn

Thanks for any insight you might be able to give on this weirdness

[LigH.de]

PAL DV does exist too... but okay, doesn't matter here.

[poisondeathray]

It also depends on how you are viewing it - if you're viewing it on a "60p" (60000/1001) timeline, it's actually 29.97fps (30000/1001) or "30p" progressive DV content if you have AABBCC...

[Alwyn]

A short sample would be great. You can use AVIDemux to do a lossless snip of a portion of the video. My guide for doing so is for Windows but I assume the Mac version operates in basically the same way.

Does the video play at the correct speed eg people moving and speaking normally?

[StrangeMutant]

I pasted a link to a short 12sec clip to look at earlier, but it's been waiting to be approved by a moderator, hopefully it will soon

To add to this, I just went back to the original tape and imported some clips from it fresh and the frames are also duplicated. I was hoping the old transfer was just weird and a fresh one would be all good... the mystery continues!

::Edit:: Here is the link, for anyone curious to inspect the clip (Be careful, it's loud!) : https://we.tl/t-8Y7C5LZt5D

[dellsam34]

How did the D8 get transferred? what software and hardware were used? To me it looks like the transfer job was wrong.

[StrangeMutant]

How did the D8 was transferred? what software and hardware were used? To me it looks like the transfer job was wrong.

I used a Sony TRV130 Camera with firewire cable to my MacBook Pro (Mid 2012 15"). I just tried importing direct to Final Cut Pro X and using Quicktime 7 Pro. Both give the same results.

PS, this is the same hardware/setup that I just used to import about 70 Digital8 tapes, and this is the only one of the bunch like this

[Alwyn]

I'd retry one of the good tapes. If that import/transfers OK, then it must be a problem with that one tape. Options: try with another camcorder, or on a Windows machine using WinDV (via Firewire) or an analogue transfer process.

[dellsam34]

I used a Sony TRV130 Camera with firewire cable to my MacBook Pro (Mid 2012 15"). I just tried importing direct to Final Cut Pro X and using Quicktime 7 Pro. Both give the same results.

PS, this is the same hardware/setup that I just used to import about 70 Digital8 tapes, and this is the only one of the bunch like this

In that case I start to believe this is 24p materials and encoded into DV as 30i, Or shot with a semi pro DV camcorder that had the option 24p in a scheme called progressive segmented frame (PsF), Basically it records interlaced fields from a progressive frame, The math doesn't add up however.

[Alwyn]

progressive segmented frame (PsF), Basically it records interlaced fields from a progressive frame,

PSF should still give you a different frame on each frame step-thru, only the fields are duplicated. This has duplicated frames ie 4 repeated fields.

[StrangeMutant]

I'd retry one of the good tapes. If that import/transfers OK, then it must be a problem with that one tape. Options: try with another camcorder, or on a Windows machine using WinDV (via Firewire) or an analogue transfer process.

The file you were inspecting was imported using an older TRV103 camera years ago, and I did a fresh transfer last evening using a borrowed TRV130 camera which gave the same results. It seems that this video is just going to have to stay the way it is.

Thank you all for looking at this weirdness!

[lollo]

PSF should still give you a different frame on each frame step-thru, only the fields are duplicated. This has duplicated frames ie 4 repeated fields.

While the concept you are trying to express is clear and pertinent, a small clarification: in a PSF architecture the fields building the frame are not duplicated, because they contain the even (one) and odd (the other) scanlines, and then different. Their characteristic is that they are from the same moment in time, contrary to the interlaced video.

[Alwyn]

Thanks Lollo, point taken and understood. That explains why I could see very slight differences between the fields when I attempt to deinterlace a PSF video.