Alternatives for VideoReDo TV Suite with Test Results

[Baldrick]

But with MPEG Video Wizard DVD, I can split a title by chapters, one VOB file per chapter, without transcoding.

I believe that was one of the Womble products ? Likely discontinued for some time, but their products used to be covered in the Software section here on VH. However, I'm not finding any trace of them here now.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/405085-Womble-MultiMedia-Out-Of-Business

The last version was from around 2015. ( 5.0.1.112 and the old trial link was http://www.womble.com/download/womble_dvd5.exe )

I restored the software page, https://www.videohelp.com/software/MPEG-Video-Wizard-DVD

[Seeker47]

But with MPEG Video Wizard DVD, I can split a title by chapters, one VOB file per chapter, without transcoding.

I believe that was one of the Womble products ? Likely discontinued for some time, but their products used to be covered in the Software section here on VH. However, I'm not finding any trace of them here now.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/405085-Womble-MultiMedia-Out-Of-Business

The last version was from around 2015. ( 5.0.1.112 and the old trial link was http://www.womble.com/download/womble_dvd5.exe )

Thanks Baldrick !
I suspected that Womble must be defunct, even as my recollection on this was hazy, since their former Internet location had gone 404.

I'm glad if you're able to keep a lot of these older programs on tap. They can still hold some real utility for users, even if the product is officially dead and the company behind it no longer on the scene. Nothing else may have come along to adequately replace them. So long as the program can still be run . . . whether that may require compatibility mode, or emulation. If not, I suppose it might not matter. That said, I have several computers here that still boot up, although no longer in active service. The oldest one of those probably has W2K on it, or at least XP. It's not completely unheard of that I may need to find something or try something on one of them.

[jagabo]

I just wish Handbrake would stop using an RF factor in their Constant Quality setting, i would rather input my own video quality Bitrate, the RF method does not tell me what the bitrate will be prior to export.

That's the whole point of quality based encoding. You pick the quality (RF) and the encoder uses whatever bitrate is required to deliver that quality. It's the opposite of bitrate based encoding where you pick the bitrate and the encoder delivers whatever quality it can at that bitrate.

[codemaster]

Womble was an alternative to VideoReDo that I used for MPEG2 camera clips from 2006 that VideoReDo couldn't handle. I use Womble in 2024 on Windows 11, to edit those clips. It works.

But for newer cameras and newer codecs, I consider ffmpeg the best VideoReDo alternative. LosslessCut with "Smart cut" disabled is ffmpeg, and outputs proper files. LosslessCut with "Smart cut" enabled is ffmpeg plus something extra and experimental, that could output damaged files that can't be played back or edited.

[Bridgy]

LosslessCut with "Smart cut" disabled is ffmpeg, and outputs proper files. LosslessCut with "Smart cut" enabled is ffmpeg plus something extra and experimental, that could output damaged files that can't be played back or edited

I already tested LosslessCut with my 4k/60p AVC and HEVC files and i can cut anywhere with the AVC files and Smart Render them, and they playback perfectly, and i can import them into VRD to add Text or Graphical titles if needed and Smart Render them to original.

I can cut my HEVC files and Smart Render them, but they only play back without glitches and import to VRD if the start of each retained segment is cut on a Keyframe, the end of each segment can be cut anywhere, if i cut the start between keyframes the file is corrupt.

If i ever lost the use of my VRD Pro to Cut, add Titles, and Smart Render them, i would definitely be using LosslessCut just for trimming and Smart Render to original because i am not that fussy where my cuts are made, every 60 frames or 1 second is fine for me, if my source file is AVC then i might be more fussy and cut between keyframes.

Recently i have been looking at using Handbrake a lot more in the future for exporting my VRD or LosslessCut trimmed/smart rendered files to other formats rather than use VRD to do it, i just need to sort out the finer points on how the Constant RF Factor mode works first, because i am so use to doing things using Bitrates.

That's the whole point of quality based encoding. You pick the quality (RF) and the encoder uses whatever bitrate is required to deliver that quality. It's the opposite of bitrate based encoding where you pick the bitrate and the encoder delivers whatever quality it can at that bitrate.

Hi m8, this is the part that i still can't get my head around, and i was going to post a new Thread up to get clarification on how the CRF system works for given files that i import.

Should i still do that, as i feel it needs to be in a new Thread and not this one, as i don't want this Thread to get cluttered with discussion about stuff not related to VRD alternative software.

[codemaster]

Handbrake and Kdenlive use preset and CRF. For x264, preset medium and CRF 18 will be the lowest visually lossless bitrate. CRF 19 and below is not enough bitrate to look like the original. And for x265, preset medium and CRF 20 is the lowest value that is visually lossless. CRF 21 and below looks inferior compared to the original.

[Bridgy]

You probably want to join short clips with VideoReDo, into one long clip, and then encode it with Handbrake to change codec, reduce resolution, or reduce file size. But what if you want more than titles, like: blur faces or license plates, adjust tonality and color, adjust audio volume, etc. With Kdenlive you can edit 4K HEVC much faster because it creates proxy files, and it can export with x265 and x264 without the use of plugins such as Voukoder or DebugMode FrameServer.

This is right, VRD does not do all of that other stuff that say Tipard can do, Tipard is more of an All in One editing tool, VRD only does the basics, but does them the best as far as Smart Rendering goes, it's export to other formats that requires recoding, it uses the Mainconcept Encoder, which has put me off it now for my own personal use.

I have not needed any of those other features in Tipard on my own personal video files, nor when editing other peoples videos, and if i had to do a lot of other stuff, they would be on files used for other not so important purposes, so even Tipard would be fine for that, even tho it too uses the Mainconcept encoder.

I think i tried Kdenlive a long time ago, i just downloaded it and will test it out again.

For x264, using a CRF value between 18 and 15 will allocate as much bitrate as is needed for the encoded file to look as good as the input/source/original file. A value between 24 and 19 looks inferior compared to the original. And between 25 and 28 you notice degradation and artifacts.

These are the recommended settings for x264 and x265 encoders from the Handbrake link below, but i have read different from those in other articles.

RF 18-22 for 480p/576p Standard Definition
RF 19-23 for 720p High Definition
RF 20-24 for 1080p Full High Definition
RF 22-28 for 2160p 4K Ultra High Definition

https://handbrake.fr/docs/en/1.2.0/workflow/adjust-quality.html

I exported a 4k/60p AVC file @ 72Mbps to 4k/60p HEVC using the following settings (see screenshot) and the resulting export was only 21.8Mbps which seemed to be well below what i expected it to be, i was always under the impression that AVC to HEVC (and vice versa) the Bitrate should be around 35 to 50% higher or lower depending which way you convert, so based on that, i would have thought the HEVC export should be at least 40Mbps.

Dan Rosen set his Intelligent Recode to 33% for exports between AVC and HEVC.


[Attachment 84519 - Click to enlarge]

The issue i have is if i import a 4k/60p AVC file with a bitrate of say 144Mbps (double my own AVC file) into Handbrake and use that exact same Preset in the screenshot, will the export then be 43.6Mbps (double what the 72Mbps file is)

My question here is all about what Bitrate is ideal for any given Video file, like i had an S23 phone that recorded 4k/60p HEVC at both 40Mbps and 80Mbps, it recorded AVC at 72Mbps and 144Mbps, i could never tell the difference visually, so i recorded them at 40 and 72 as i never saw any need to use the higher bitrate.

This is why i get so confused with CRF settings.

[codemaster]

For that 4k HEVC preset in Handbrake:

- encoding preset is set to "fast"; it should be set to "medium"
- constant quality, or CRF, is set to 24; it should be 20 in order for bitrate to be high enough to look as good as that original AVC 72 Mb/s

For x264, CRF 18 will calculate how much bitrate a video needs in order to look as good as the original. And for x265, CRF 20 will do the same.

[Bridgy]

For that 4k HEVC preset in Handbrake:

- encoding preset is set to "fast"; it should be set to "medium"
- constant quality, or CRF, is set to 24; it should be 20 in order for bitrate to be high enough to look as good as that original AVC 72 Mb/s

For x264, CRF 18 will calculate how much bitrate a video needs in order to look as good as the original. And for x265, CRF 20 will do the same.

For that File, i chose the Fast 2160p60 4K HEVC preset, and i just changed the Encoder to H.265 (x265) and the default RF factor was already 24.

I never changed the Speed or RF factor assuming that those 2 settings would have been the correct setting for my file, but obviously it wasn't given the low bitrate, and if it took 5 minutes on Fast, i hate to think what Medium will take.

So for a 4k/60p AVC file (40 to 80Mbps) export to 4k/60p HEVC i should use RF 20 ?

For a 4k/60p HEVC file (40 to 80Mbps) export to 4k/60p AVC i should use RF 18 ?

Also, i sometimes export my 4k/60p HEVC files to 1080/60p or 720/60p HEVC format, so what preset or RF factor do i use for those ?

Also, in the Preset list there is no Preset for 2160p60 4K AVC, there is only HEVC and AV1 ? so what Preset do i use to export my 4k/60p HEVC files to AVC.

Maybe they should have Medium 2160p60 4K HEVC and AV1 Preset as well as the Fast and Very Fast.

[badyu17]

I have to chime in and mention SolveigMM Videosplitter as a very good VRD alternative. It has smart rendering capabilities for AVC and HEVC. The only thing I don't quite like is different editing 'way' which is different from VideoReDo. They even offer that same smart editing capabilities in the form of SDK which can be implemented to other applications. I know that DVBViewer Video Editor uses it. See screenshot here:

https://www.dvbviewer.com/en/index.php?page=dve

I personally used it much more for AVC so my experience with 4K HEVC files is very limited.

[Bridgy]

I have to chime in and mention SolveigMM Videosplitter as a very good VRD alternative. It has smart rendering capabilities for AVC and HEVC. The only thing I don't quite like is different editing 'way' which is different from VideoReDo. They even offer that same smart editing capabilities in the form of SDK which can be implemented to other applications. I know that DVBViewer Video Editor uses it. See screenshot here:

https://www.dvbviewer.com/en/index.php?page=dve

I personally used it much more for AVC so my experience with 4K HEVC files is very limited.

I tried SolveigMM to cut some files and i hated the way that the stupid cutting tool works, it is just like many of the others which are just so clunky to use, and i personally don't get why these developers do it that way, they need to look at VRD and LosslessCut and learn from them.

I didn'd look into anything else it did because it failed the Cutting Tool test for me, so playing about with it was just a waste of time.

SolveigMM does not do titles nor export to other formats, and therefore it does not do Intelligent Recode, which was a feature that was only developed by the late owner of VRD, but does it do QuickStream Fix, or any of the other stuff that VRD can do, if not then i personally would not call it close to being an alternative at all, to me it would be called a Cutting Tool with Smart Rendering, with a few other features thrown in.

Cheers

[badyu17]

Yeah, I agree with most, but I don't think you need titles in a tool like this (I think Titles and DVD authoring in VRD was stupid). When you eventually 'learn' how to cut with it, I think it becomes usable tool, and the smartrendering is top notch IMO. Yeah it doesn't multiplex to other containers during editing but you can easily use MKVtoolnix, ffmpeg etc to repack it to other containers. Let's be honest, VideoReDo also wasn't some kind of full fledged video editor with all bells and whistles. There are different tools for different roles.

When I tested LosslessCut it was early version and it coudn't do much with the files I tested it with. I don't know current situation but the tool based on ffmpeg cutting is IMO not a good idea if you want precise cuts.

[Bridgy]

VRD was never developed for video editing, it was designed for television broadcast, or whatever they call it, it then took on other roles as the need was required, so yes, it is not a fully fledged editing tool, never was, and never intended to be, but what it did do, nothing out there did it better, and nobody has ever copied the Intelligent Recode feature either.

I love the Titles/credits tool in VRD, i was the one who helped develop it for Dan Rosen as i was the one who found it to be pretty much flawed when trying to add them to my own video files, and we eventually got it fixed to the point where we could not only add Text based frame titles or credits, we could do it using images as well.

The down side was that Dan passed away during the final development phase of HEVC, so titles would not work with HEVC files, only on AVC files unfortunately.

As for LosslessCut, it is now my go to Cutting/Smart Render tool for my 4k/60p HEVC files because it works perfectly without any lagging, VRD Pro will not work with these files properly, the video preview screen and the frame based timeline is far too laggy to be able to use it properly, but it works perfectly on my 4k/60p AVC files, so does the Titles feature.

BTW, i don't use Titles or Credits very often, but some of my clients like to have them added to their files.

[codemaster]

Selecting a preset in Handbrake or Kdenlive, is a starting point. After selecting that preset, it's better to change some things. The most important thing to change is the value of the CRF parameter.

For any resolution you export, CRF 18 in x264 will allocate enough bitrate to match source quality. CRF 19 will not allocate enough bitrate, and CRF 17 will allocate more bitrate than necessary. And CRF 20 in x265 is the equivalent value that will do what CRF 18 does in x264.

For visually lossless results with x264, the minimum is CRF 18, and the maximum is CRF 15. If encoding to upload on streaming platforms, I recommend CRF 15. If not uploading on streaming platforms, CRF 18 is sufficient. For x265, min is CRF 20, max is CRF 17.

What you do with VideoReDo and Handbrake, you can do with LosslessCut and Kdenlive, in case VideoReDo stops activating or can't handle HEVC. Then, if encoding is too slow and you don't have enough time, then switching to Capcut will speed up encoding 10x through hardware encoding.

[Bridgy]

Thank you, i need to ask.

The CRF 18 is for converting from HEVC to AVC, and the CRF 20 is concerting from HEVC to AVC, or are they the opposite way around.

I assumed that if i had a 4k/60p HEVC file and i wanted it downscaled to 1080/60p or 720/60p HEVC, i would need to use a different CRF factor for each one.

I will spend the day testing this out by exporting my 4k/60p HEVC files to 1080/60p and 720/60p HEVC and AVC just to see how it goes.

BTW, i asked this question earlier, but why has Handbrake not got a Preset for Fast or Very Fast 2160p60 4K AVC, it only has HEVC and AV1, so if i need to recode a 46/60p HEVC to AVC which Preset do i use, it just seems rather strange to me, as i don't really know much about AV1 and how it actually works.

What you do with VideoReDo and Handbrake, you can do with LosslessCut and Kdenlive, in case VideoReDo stops activating or can't handle HEVC. Then, if encoding is too slow and you don't have enough time, then switching to Capcut will speed up encoding 10x through hardware encoding.

I will never use Hardware based encoding, that is why i need to get myself a new High end editing computer to replace my current 4 year old 6 core Metabox laptop.

I will be buying my Son's current AMD 20 core Editing computer in a few months as he has a 27" 4k dell screen that has been professionally calibrated with that, he has to move to a new 16" MacBook Pro for his editing because he travels around Australia and overseas as a Cinematographer and needs portability, plus he has moved to a different video editing software and it apparently works better on Mac.

My laptop is fine for 90% of my needs because Cutting, adding Titles when needed, and Smart Rendering does not require recoding, and i am not rendering those files to other formats to retain them as my Archive copies, so the only time that i really need a more powerful computer is for exporting files to other formats when i need to, which is not that often anyway.

Mostly i downscale 4k files to 1080p for Youtube, or convert my 4k stuff from HEVC to AVC for those who don't have a TV that supports HEVC, which now days most decent TV's will support.

The longest 4k/60p HEVC file i have recoded to AVC was 45 minutes, it took 3.5 hours to run on my laptop, if i do a 4k to 1080p then it is faster, and does not bog the laptop down too much.

[codemaster]

To prevent quality loss without wasting space, I recommend:

- CRF 18 for converting from HEVC to AVC, if not uploading to youtube
- CRF 15 for HEVC to AVC, for uploading to youtube
- CRF 20 for AVC to HEVC, and HEVC to HEVC, if not uploading to youtube
- CRF 17 for AVC to HEVC, and HEVC to HEVC, for uploading to youtube
- the same CRF value for all resolutions, not a different CRF value for each resolution
- using at least preset "medium" for good balance between encoding speed and file size

Leaving CRF set to 24 when encoding to HEVC, will allocate less bitrate than CRF 20, and will result in quality loss.

If there's no preset that matches what you need, you pick a close one that doesn't match, and change CRF, preset, tune, etc, until it matches.

[Bridgy]

OK so i just did some HEVC export tests using various RF Factors.

Source File = 30 Second 4k/60p AVC @ 72Mbps = 265MB File Size

RF18 = 92Mbps = 344MB = Export time approx 6min
RF20 = 65Mbps = 238MB = Export time approx 6min
RF22 = 43Mbps = 159MB = Export time approx 6min

VRD Intelligent Recode = 43Mbps = 159MB = Export time was 4min exactly, and the Export was identical to the Handbrake CRF 22 both in bitrate and file size.

So VRD does the same export as Handbrake CRF22 using it's Intelligent Recode, but is it using the Mainconcept Encoder or x265 ?

Personally if i use CRF20 for my AVC to HEVC then i might as well leave them in ACV and not wast so much encoding time.

Can't wait to get my Son's editing computer now.


[Attachment 84549 - Click to enlarge]

I will now do some HEVC to AVC and see how that goes at your recommended CRF 18, plus i will do 16 and 20 as well as a comparison.

[codemaster]

What bitrate CRF allocates, varies according to the type of content. It allocates more bitrate to a sports event, than to a talk show. I don't think Intelligent Recode is smart enough to do what CRF does.

[Bridgy]

What bitrate CRF allocates, varies according to the type of content. It allocates more bitrate to a sports event, than to a talk show. Intelligent Recode doesn't do that, it's not smart enough to do that.

So my Source File is a slow pan around my courtyard over a 30 second duration, so it is static, apart from the slow movement of the camera.

If i record a car race or a soccer game using my 4k/60p AVC mode, then export to HEVC at CRF 20 it could have a higher or lower bitrate.

Intelligent Recode just uses what Dan Rosen determined to be the best "Average" video bitrate for a given conversion, and this is why i mentioned in an earlier post that he used a bitrate of around 35% higher or lower depending which way you was exporting, so AVC to HEVC would be 35% lower bitrate, HEVC to AVC it would be 35% higher bitrate.

This, and the fact that VRD may still be using the Mainconcept Encoder for Export to other formats has me more convinced that i should now start using Handbrake for doing my Exports to other formats, and just use VRD for the Smart Cutting, Titles, and Smart Rendering.

If VRD is lost in the future, i just revert to LosslessCut to do my Cutting and Smart Rendering, for Titles i will sort that out later, given that i don't use Titles that often, still nice to have the option just the same, as long as it can be done the same way that Dan Rosen did it in VRD, a lot of other editing tools only do Overlaid Titles and Credits, which i hate.

[codemaster]

I think CRF allocates higher bitrate than Intelligent Recode because it is better at measuring how much bitrate each video requires, based on what it contains.

[Bridgy]

I think CRF allocates higher bitrate than Intelligent Recode because it is better at measuring how much bitrate each video requires, based on what it contains.

So if i am going to use CRF 20 for AVC to HEVC and get only 7Mbps lower bitrate (as per my notes above) then why bother recoding at all, maybe for exporting from my 4k/60p AVC to say 1080p or 720p then it might be ok to use.

Just doing my HEVC to AVC right now.

[codemaster]

For x265, encoding a still image, at CRF 17 image quality is good or indistinguishable from source. CRF 20 is the first CRF value at which you start noticing some degradation/alteration. At CRF 24 you can notice more degradation than at CRF 20.

You recode when changing resolution and/or codec, for compatibility with older devices. Or when editing in a NLE.

[Seeker47]

VRD[/url] does not do all of that other stuff that say Tipard can do, Tipard is more of an All in One editing tool, VRD only does the basics, but does them the best as far as Smart Rendering goes, it's export to other formats that requires recoding, it uses the Mainconcept Encoder, which has put me off it now for my own personal use.

I have not needed any of those other features in Tipard on my own personal video files, nor when editing other peoples videos,

Given the way some products proliferate under alternative brand names, I wonder whether Tipard could be one of those ? Someone just reminded me of -- for example -- Movavi Video Converter. Movavi also has a slew of products. They mentioned it in the context of one that could re-time the synch on errant subtitles, a feature I would not have guessed.

[Bridgy]

Can i ask, if i want to downscale my 4k/60p HEVC files to 1080/60p HEVC or even 720/60p HEVC, what CRF Factor do i use, i dont think we have mentioned this yet.

What CRF do i use to downscale 4k/60p AVC to 1080p AVC or 720p AVC as well.

You recode only when changing resolution and/or codec, for compatibility with older devices. You don't recode when changing container, or to reduce file size by 7 Mb/s. You can upload 4k to youtube and let youtube downscale to 1080p.

I have to recode some of my 4k/60p HEVC to 4k/60p AVC if i give them to others who don't have support for 4k HEVC, and i have had to downscale to 1080p AVC for 1080p TV's that mostly don't support HEVC.

After Cutting, Titles, and Smart Rendering i keep my own Videos at whatever i record them in, although i have exported a few AVC to HEVC after doing the edits first.

Export Test HEVC to AVC

Source File = 30 Second 4k/60p HEVC @ 40Mbps = 152MB File Size

My camera records 4k/60p AVC @ 72Mbps as a comparison to the results below.

RF18 = 87Mbps = 316MB
RF19 = 74Mbps = 266MB
RF20 = 62Mbps = 222MB

[codemaster]

CRF 20 for 4K HEVC to 1080p HEVC.
CRF 20 for 4K HEVC to 720p HEVC.
Because using less than 20, such as 22 or 24, you can notice degradation of image quality.

CRF 18 for 4K AVC to 1080p AVC.
CRF 18 for 4K AVC to 720p AVC.
Because using less than 18, such as 19 or 20, you can notice degradation of image quality.

I saw that Handbrake suggests different CRF values for different resolutions, but I think it's better to use the same CRF value for all resolutions.

[Bridgy]

I saw that Handbrake suggests different CRF values for different resolutions, but I think it's better to use the same CRF value for all resolutions.

Yes i read this somewhere too, however, i think that your logic seems fair from what i am seeing in my own Testing

4k/60p HEVC (40Mbps) Export to the following.

to 1080/60p HEVC @ 20 = 14.7Mbps (your suggestion)
to 1080/60p HEVC @ 21 = 12.0Mbps
to 1080/60p HEVC @ 22 = 9.7Mbps (this is approx 1/4 of the Source File bitrate) and 1080p is 1/4 lower than 4k resolution

to 720/60p HEVC @ 20 = 7.0Mbps (your suggestion)
to 720/60p HEVC @ 21 = 5.7Mbps
to 720/60p HEVC @ 22 = 4.7Mbps (this is approx 1/9 of the Source File bitrate) and 720p is about 1/9 lower than 4k resolution

I am not saying that CRF 22 is more accurate here, i am just using the 1080p 1/4 and 720p 1/9 resolution scale and referencing those bitrates to the 40Mbps bitrate of the 4k source file.

Your CRF 20 may be more preferable, for me i would be ok to use 20, 21, or 22 in these cases, given the source file is only from my phone camera.

[Bridgy]

I meant to ask, and totally forgot, but what about the Encoder Profile and Level settings, do we need to set these for each type of export.

[codemaster]

If you don't specify "profile" and "level", and leave "auto" selected, then they will be set automatically by the encoder. I let the encoder choose profile and level. The x265 and x264 encoders know which profile and level to choose, for each resolution and fps you encode. "Tune" can be omitted and set to "none", if you don't know what tune to use or what tune matches the input video.

[codemaster]

For x264 I use the same CRF value for all resolutions. But for x265, I don't know, because HEVC is different and has higher efficiency at high resolutions than it has at low resolutions, while AVC has the same efficiency at both low and high resolutions. So when encoding with x265, I know for sure CRF 20 for 480p is visually lossless or indistinguishable from source, but for 4K I don't know if CRF 20 is enough or more than enough, or if CRF 22 is enough or not enough.

[Bridgy]

If you don't specify "profile" and "level", and leave "auto" selected, then they will be set automatically by the encoder. I let the encoder choose profile and level. The x265 and x264 encoders know which profile and level to choose, for each resolution and fps you encode. "Tune" can be omitted and set to "none", if you don't know what tune to use or what tune matches the input video.

Yeah i thought this might have been the case, so when i set my 4k/60p HEVC test file to export to 4k/60p AVC, i chose the Fast 2160p60 4K AV1 Preset then i set the Encoder to H.264 (x264) which then output the file to AVC not AV1, in that Preset the Encoder Profile and Level were both set to Auto by default.


[Attachment 84599 - Click to enlarge]

It was different when i selected to export the 4k files to 1080p or 720p, the encoder Profile and Levels were set to Main @ 3.1 for 720p and Main @ 4.0 for 1080p, so should i change those to AUTO on both ?


[Attachment 84600 - Click to enlarge]


[Attachment 84601 - Click to enlarge]