Lossless Quicktime to Regular Lossless AVI Conversion.

[dellsam34]

In an effort to ditch the computer for capturing (a thread is coming) I use the BM HyperDeck Shuttle 2 to record from SDI out of the analog capture device, The files are recorded in lossless quicktime because it's the only format the Hyperdeck 2 accepts, I have trouble working with this format, for one MPC-HC doesn't play it albeit VLC does, It writes 16 audio ch even when there is only two active, If I put the file into vdub2 it comes out with 16 audio channels and 32bit float, The output file bitrate is way smaller than the original, Although there was no transcoding done since it was processed @ around 500 frames/sec. I just want the original stereo 24bit track, Any other alternatives to vdub2 or how to get this sorted out?

QT:

General
Complete name                            : D:\Capture0000.mov
Format                                   : QuickTime
Format/Info                              : Original Apple specifications
File size                                : 5.45 GiB
Duration                                 : 3 min 13 s
Overall bit rate                         : 242 Mb/s
Frame rate                               : 29.970 FPS
Encoded date                             : 2024-10-13 19:55:30 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2024-10-13 19:55:30 UTC
Writing library                          : Apple QuickTime

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : YUV
Codec ID                                 : v210
Codec ID/Hint                            : AJA Video Systems Xena
Duration                                 : 3 min 13 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 224 Mb/s
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Clean aperture width                     : 704 pixels
Height                                   : 486 pixels
Clean aperture height                    : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
Clean aperture display aspect ratio      : 4:3
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan type, store method                  : Interleaved fields
Scan order                               : Bottom Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossless
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 21.333
Stream size                              : 5.03 GiB (92%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : 2024-10-13 19:55:30 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2024-10-13 19:55:30 UTC
Color primaries                          : BT.601 NTSC
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.601

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little / Signed
Codec ID                                 : lpcm
Duration                                 : 3 min 13 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 18.4 Mb/s
Channel(s)                               : 16 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 24 bits
Stream size                              : 425 MiB (8%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : 2024-10-13 19:55:30 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2024-10-13 19:55:30 UTC

Other
ID                                       : 3
Type                                     : Time code
Format                                   : QuickTime TC
Duration                                 : 3 min 13 s
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00;00
Time code of last frame                  : 00:03:13;07
Time code, stripped                      : Yes
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : 2024-10-13 19:55:30 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2024-10-13 19:55:30 UTC

Vdub2:

General
Complete name                            : C:\Users\....\Capture0000.avi
Format                                   : AVI
Format/Info                              : Audio Video Interleave
Format settings                          : WaveFormatExtensible
File size                                : 1.75 GiB
Duration                                 : 3 min 13 s
Overall bit rate                         : 77.7 Mb/s
Frame rate                               : 29.970 FPS
Writing library                          : VirtualDub2 build 44282/release

Video
ID                                       : 0
Format                                   : HuffYUV
Format version                           : Version 2
Codec ID                                 : HFYU
Duration                                 : 3 min 13 s
Bit rate                                 : 53.1 Mb/s
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 486 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 3:2
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 5.063
Stream size                              : 1.19 GiB (68%)

Audio
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : PCM
Format profile                           : Float
Codec ID                                 : 00000003-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71
Codec ID/Hint                            : IEEE 
Duration                                 : 3 min 13 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 24.6 Mb/s
Channel(s)                               : 16 channels
Channel layout                           : L R C Lb Rb Cb Ls Rs Tfl Tfc Tfr Tbl Tbc Tbr
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 32 bits
Stream size                              : 566 MiB (32%)
Alignment                                : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration                     : 33  ms (1.00 video frame)
Interleave, preload duration             : 500  ms

[aramkolt]

Look forward to your eventual thread. I was planning on doing some testing with a Hyperdeck studio pro (2?) that has component and SDI inputs for a similar sort of capture chain test. I wasn't aware of a "lossless" mode though. My thought would be that you could use whatever program that you do your deinterlacing to also process the audio at the same time, or just process in advance with something like FFMpeg.

There's a similar device, the AJA KiPro that is much less expensive and has basically the same feature set (with SDI and analog component inputs), but maxes out at Apple ProRes 422 HQ which I think is visually lossless, but probably isn't technically lossless. The KiPro has its own audio issues if you use the RCA stereo red/white L/R inputs where it will create two separate mono audio tracks instead of a single stereo track..... So..... without using a linear editor to assign the two tracks to right and left and to allow them to play at the same time, you'll only be able to hear or process one channel if using something like Handbrake to transcode or VLC for playback. I made a post where a workaround for that was found without transcoding the actual video file, granted, it's more Mac focused as far as writing the script, but should be similar on windows for FFMpeg.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffmpeg/comments/1dfi3fz/creating_one_stereo_track_from_two_mono_tracks_on/

I haven't actually tried feeding the AJA KiPro an SDI signal with audio already embedded, so I'm not sure how it handles that.

The AJA will actually flash a message on screen if it's dropping frames which is an interesting feature I haven't seen elsewhere. I use mine with TBCs that have SDI output, so the only time I really see that message is right at the beginning of the capture sometimes when play is first pressed.

Not sure if that would be helpful for your audio issue, but maybe? Guessing you can combine your two mono tracks into stereo in the same way and then if the rest aren't processed, I assume they'll get discarded in the new output file.

It's unfortunate that QTGMC isn't very Mac friendly, because otherwise the Hyperdecks and AJA products seem like they'd be excellent capture devices and QTGMC is the main thing that's then missing from Mac software.

[dellsam34]

The necessity to ditch the computer for capturing arose from the need to buy another one for just capturing and use my current one for encoding, I've been looking for a way to store the SDI stream into a HDD instead of using an entire computer system because basically that's all what the computer was doing, All the video timing, processing and capturing is done inside the analog to SDI converter. I looked into Aja, DataVideo, Grass Valley and others but each one has its own quirks and limitations, I saw a Black Magic HyperDeck Shuttle 2 on eBay for $70 and I had to have it after reading that it can store the rec.601 SDI stream as is in uncompressed 10bit 4:2:2, But I rushed and updated firmware, so I'm not sure if it had lossless AVI option before and now the update took away lossless AVI and brought lossless quicktime or it was always like that.

Lossless Quicktime is still lossless, but 16 ch audio is annoying to me and haven't found a way to get rid of the extra 14 inactive audio ch. MediaExpress automatically stored only the active audio channels on computer even when it is capable of 16 ch shown on the GUI. So far this is the only quirk with this device, I was having a hard time with formatting the SSD to go with it, but it turns out all I needed to do is format it in exFAT.

Sure I can choose 2ch during the encoding process but sometimes I get asked for lossless files and I would prefer to deliver 2ch stereo 48/24bit instead of 16ch 48/32bit float, from an editing perspective this is the best option but not sure how it will hold in a consumer environment.

[poisondeathray]

If I put the file into vdub2 it comes out with 16 audio channels and 32bit float, The output file bitrate is way smaller than the original, Although there was no transcoding done since it was processed @ around 500 frames/sec. I just want the original stereo 24bit track, Any other alternatives to vdub2 or how to get this sorted out?

It's smaller because you're re-encoding the video stream with 8bit422 huffyuv . Huffyuv uses lossless compression, but 8bit422 is lossy from a 10bit422 v210 source.

Try "direct stream copy" into AVI container for v210 in AVI . If vdub2 complains, then use video=> uncompressed, and it should be v210 anyways without any quality loss. If you want lossless compression to reduce the filesize for 10bit422 in AVI container, you can use ut video - but the 10bit422 variety is not very compatible with programs except for some ffmpeg based ones . If you use audio => direct stream copy, it should stream copy the audio too as 24bit I'm assuming

You can also try ffmpeg , if cmd works ok for one file, then you can batch it

ffmpeg -i input.mov -c:v copy -c:a copy output.avi

You should be able to -map the audio channels to stereo 24bit 28Khz in ffmpeg as well

[dellsam34]

I'm ok with 8 bit 4:2:2, I just want 2ch audio instead of 16.

Edit:
Saving as AVI 10bit v210 direct stream copy and using the ffmpeg command both produced a file with 16 audio channels.

[The_Doman]

Possible try it with Avidemux?
It has an easy option to select the wanted audio channels.
Try the official release and nightly versions.

[dellsam34]

I really hate editors but I gave it a try it won't even open the video file.

[poisondeathray]

I'm ok with 8 bit 4:2:2, I just want 2ch audio instead of 16.

Edit:
Saving as AVI 10bit v210 direct stream copy and using the ffmpeg command both produced a file with 16 audio channels.

That was a stream copy of the audio, so you expect 16 audio channels. To reduce channels need to map the audio channels. you can use pan filter


https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/AudioChannelManipulation#Arbitrarychannelreductionmapping

The pan audio filter can be used to reduce the number of channels in a stream with an arbitrary mapping of input to output channels

Assuming it's the 1st two ( zero and one) it should be like this. Check the audio output

ffmpeg -i input.mov -af 'pan=2c|c0=c0|c1=c1' -c:v copy -c:a s24le output.avi

[dellsam34]

If you don't mind, here is a 16 sec sample and see what you can do with it:

[poisondeathray]

It should be this, but there is a bug in the output where the fps is wrong. Older versions read as 60fps probably reading the field rate, newer ffmpeg binaries at 600fps . One good thing about ffmpeg is it copies over the AR flags, field order - which you usually don't get with generic "AVI"

ffmpeg -i HyperDeckS2.mov -af "pan=2c|c0=c0|c1=c1" -c:v copy -c:a pcm_s24le output.avi

I'll look for a workaround in ffmpeg, but for now you can take the ffmpeg audio and mux it with the vdub video stream copy (or huffyuv if you want)

[poisondeathray]

Resetting the timestamps appears to work ok

ffmpeg -r 30000/1001 -bsf "setts=pts=DTS" -i HyperDeckS2.mov -af "pan=2c|c0=c0|c1=c1" -c:v copy -c:a pcm_s24le setts.avi -y

[aramkolt]

The method I linked about in Reddit takes the left and right mono tracks and makes one stereo track without touching the video itself. The output file should just have the one stereo track and none of the other audio tracks I think. Pretty sure this is along the same lines as what posiondeathray is doing, but with the pan filter instead of "join".

[dellsam34]

Resetting the timestamps appears to work ok

ffmpeg -r 30000/1001 -bsf "setts=pts=DTS" -i HyperDeckS2.mov -af "pan=2c|c0=c0|c1=c1" -c:v copy -c:a pcm_s24le setts.avi -y

I'm getting this error message, I guess a mistake in the formulation?

Option bsf (A comma-separated list of bitstream filters) cannot be applied to input url HyperDeckS2.mov -- you are trying to apply an input option to an output file or vice versa. Move this option before the file it belongs to.
Error parsing options for input file HyperDeckS2.mov.
Error opening input files: Invalid argument

[ProWo]

If you don't mind, here is a 16 sec sample and see what you can do with it:

Here a PCM 24 bit recode from your sample, done with clever FFmpeg-GUI.
You can also select any other mp4 compatible encoder like ac3 or eac3 this way.


[Attachment 82825 - Click to enlarge]


[Attachment 82824 - Click to enlarge]

[The_Doman]

I have trouble working with this format, for one MPC-HC doesn't play it albeit VLC does,

Your HyperDeckS2.mov sample file plays here fine with MPC-HC , possible you use an older version?

If I put the file into vdub2 it comes out with 16 audio channels and 32bit float, The output file bitrate is way smaller than the original, Although there was no transcoding done since it was processed @ around 500 frames/sec. I just want the original stereo 24bit track, Any other alternatives to vdub2 or how to get this sorted out?

This works or is that not what you want?


[Attachment 82829 - Click to enlarge]

[poisondeathray]

Resetting the timestamps appears to work ok

ffmpeg -r 30000/1001 -bsf "setts=pts=DTS" -i HyperDeckS2.mov -af "pan=2c|c0=c0|c1=c1" -c:v copy -c:a pcm_s24le setts.avi -y

I'm getting this error message, I guess a mistake in the formulation?

Option bsf (A comma-separated list of bitstream filters) cannot be applied to input url HyperDeckS2.mov -- you are trying to apply an input option to an output file or vice versa. Move this option before the file it belongs to.
Error parsing options for input file HyperDeckS2.mov.
Error opening input files: Invalid argument

You are probably using an old ffmpeg binary, try updating it

[dellsam34]

This works or is that not what you want?


[Attachment 82829 - Click to enlarge]

What version of vdub2 you're using? Note that I need to save PCM, it looks like you're choosing a lossy audio format, that's not what I want.

[dellsam34]

Here a PCM 24 bit recode from your sample, done with clever FFmpeg-GUI.
You can also select any other mp4 compatible encoder like ac3 or eac3 this way.

I want PCM 2ch, Also I don't want to demux and remux audio, It creates a lot of steps for me.

[dellsam34]

You are probably using an old ffmpeg binary, try updating it

I updated it to the latest version and it worked.

[poisondeathray]

You are probably using an old ffmpeg binary, try updating it

Do you have a link where I can get the latest version?

https://www.gyan.dev/ffmpeg/builds/
https://www.gyan.dev/ffmpeg/builds/ffmpeg-git-full.7z

[ProWo]

I want PCM 2ch, Also I don't want to demux and remux audio, It creates a lot of steps for me.

This is PCM 2ch 24 bit. Download my wav from post #14 and test it.
Here is nothing to demux (see the gif), only encoding a new audio output and remux that with your source video.
But, as stated above, pcm audio doesn't go to mp4.

[The_Doman]

What version of vdub2 you're using? Note that I need to save PCM, it looks like you're choosing a lossy audio format, that's not what I want.

VirtualDub 2 Build 44282, 32/64 bit / Windows 7/10.
Video direct stream copy, Audio is PCM


[Attachment 82838 - Click to enlarge]


[Attachment 82839 - Click to enlarge]

[dellsam34]

This is PCM 2ch 24 bit. Download my wav from post #14 and test it.
Here is nothing to demux (see the gif), only encoding a new audio output and remux that with your source video.
But, as stated above, pcm audio doesn't go to mp4.

I know, I'm not saying it's compressed, I just don't want an extra step for each capture, Thanks.

[dellsam34]

VirtualDub 2 Build 44282, 32/64 bit / Windows 7/10.
Video direct stream copy, Audio is PCM

I updated to the latest vdub2 and I still don't have the option to select audio channels, Could be Windows 11 I'm using or it could be that you have some plugins I don't have?

On the MPC-HC, I have the latest version, it could be that you have the quicktime plugin, but again even the processed file that supposed to be AVI still wouldn't play, I mean it plays audio but no video.

[poisondeathray]

You are probably using an old ffmpeg binary, try updating it

I updated it to the latest version and it worked.

Some benefits of ffmpeg method is it's more easily batchable than vdub2 and it keeps the correct field order and AR information.

Video
ID                                       : 0
Format                                   : YUV
Codec ID                                 : v210
Codec ID/Hint                            : AJA Video Systems Xena
Duration                                 : 16 s 950 ms
Bit rate                                 : 224 Mb/s
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 486 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
Frame rate                               : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Bottom Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossless
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 21.333
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00;00
Time code source                         : ISMP
Stream size                              : 452 MiB (99%)

Audio
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Little / Signed
Codec ID                                 : 00000001-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71
Duration                                 : 16 s 950 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 2 304 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 24 bits
Stream size                              : 4.66 MiB (1%)
Alignment                                : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration                     : 21  ms (0.64 video frame)

A cmd batch to process a folder of mov's to avi's in the same manner as above would look something like this

for %a in ("*.mov") do ffmpeg -r 30000/1001 -bsf "setts=pts=DTS" -i "%a" -af "pan=2c|c0=c0|c1=c1" -c:v copy -c:a pcm_s24le "%~na.avi"

[dellsam34]

Thanks PDR, How do you integrate the single file command in AVSPmod?

[The_Doman]

I updated to the latest vdub2 and I still don't have the option to select audio channels, Could be Windows 11 I'm using or it could be that you have some plugins I don't have?

I don't have any special plugins.
To verify, i only unzipped the VirtualDub2_44282.zip package on two clean installed Windows 10/11 systems here.
It all works exactly as described above.
But you have to enable the Full processing audio mode to select the stereo option in conversion mode.

On the MPC-HC, I have the latest version, it could be that you have the quicktime plugin, but again even the processed file that supposed to be AVI still wouldn't play, I mean it plays audio but no video.

On the same clean systems, I only installed MPC-HC 2.3.6.21
It plays the HyperDeckS2.mov and converted avi clips perfectly fine?

[poisondeathray]

Thanks PDR, How do you integrate the single file command in AVSPmod?

I don't understand the question - avspmod is for avisynth ; the commandline is for ffmpeg

Are you asking how to load that mov in avisynth , with stereo audio ?


Normally I would use LSmashAudioSource / LSmashVideoSource for MOV files (no indexing required), but it's laggy with this file for some reason

aud=LWLibavAudioSource("HyperDeckS2.mov")
vid=LWLibavVideoSource("HyperDeckS2.mov")
fl=aud.GetChannel(1)
fr=aud.GetChannel(2)

AudioDub(vid, MergeChannels(fl,fr))

[Alwyn]

To verify, i only unzipped the VirtualDub2_44282.zip package on two clean installed Windows 10/11 systems here.
It all works exactly as described above.

I too cannot open that MOV in VDub2 64bit. It throws this message:

[Attachment 82853 - Click to enlarge]
Edit: it seems that not all VDub 2 v44282 are not the same. When I ran the VideoHelp version of VDub2, it opened that MOV file with no issues, as The Doman has found.

Edit 2: I think I have found what the issue is. I installed new AVLIB-1 plugin files mentioned in this post (the 94 version fails as well):

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/415353-value-of-pro-res-version#post2744352

and now I cannot open Dellsam's MOV. When I revert to the original VDub AVLIB-1 plugin, the MOV opens OK. So it seems that there is a bug in that new AVLIB-1 plugin.

Summary: use the original VDub 2 download from VH.

[dellsam34]

I'm using the original vdub2 install and in full processing mode for both audio and video and I can only get the screenshot in post 24, I choose save file and then in the audio section on the right I click change. Is there another way of doing it?