VideoHelp Forum
+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 3
FirstFirst 1 2 3
Results 61 to 81 of 81
Thread
  1. Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Wrocław
    Search PM
    I loaded both files from post #46 into VirtualDub and honestly I can't see any white color clipping (VirtualDub set to Rec601, limited)
    Image Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	j668-vs-s7500.png
Views:	16
Size:	1.09 MB
ID:	82923  

    Quote Quote  
  2. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Italy
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Krazern View Post
    Why it's an advantage to the standard workflow? I always thought keeping the least devices in the capturing chain is good. Here the D/A conversion on output is avoided and direct A/D conversion is being captured through HDMI.
    I meant that if you use a VCR with TBC, you only have 1 A/D conversion (outside what happens in the VCR itself). When we compare your 2 captures, the standard flow is penalized. The "alternative" method includes TBC and A/D in the same device from what I have understood from your description.

    Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    I meant that if i try to adjust brightness and contrast in e.g vdub i can recover details in whites that look blown (not in the range?).
    I did that to this EH65 sample below.
    Not what has been clipped during capture. In general, when you see a spike a Y = 255 it means that details are lost, and not recoverable. You can brig back data that are in the 235-255 range and that are clipped by the player or by the software or by the processing. For example if you need a RGB conversion somehow, you shrink the Y > 235 and well position the details that otherwise will be missed.

    Originally Posted by rgr View Post
    Well, using the ES-10 is just plugging in an extra device and doing an extra D/A conversion, right? Using the EH65 (and capturing from HDMI) is just one A/D conversion.
    Yes, see my answer to Krazern. In general, if the DVD recorder acting as capture device ALSO features TBC correction, you have everything in one device, Then you can compare with the standard workflow using a VCR with TBC and a classic capture card. If you need to add a stabilization device as Krazern is doing in the standard workflow, the comparison is somehow unfair.

    Originally Posted by rgr View Post
    In your screenshot I can see that the data is not lost, it is just in the range 235-255, right?
    Data in the reange 235-255 can be easily recovered. But when you have a spike at 255 or a little bit lower, you already lost details, and these cannot be recovered.
    Quote Quote  
  3. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Italy
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by rgr View Post
    I loaded both files from post #46 into VirtualDub and honestly I can't see any white color clipping (VirtualDub set to Rec601, limited)
    If you setp some frame forward you will see the accumulation of the whites: hyst.mp4
    Quote Quote  
  4. Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Wrocław
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    Originally Posted by rgr View Post
    I loaded both files from post #46 into VirtualDub and honestly I can't see any white color clipping (VirtualDub set to Rec601, limited)
    If you setp some frame forward you will see the accumulation of the whites: Image
    [Attachment 82925 - Click to enlarge]
    OK, now I see.
    Apparently the S7500 reacts faster to brightness jumps, the J668 does it slower. But is it worse? Is it better to see 1% more or better to see 99% clearer?
    (this time the histogram is set to full range and s7500 on the left)
    Image Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	j668-vs-s7500 (2).png
Views:	16
Size:	900.6 KB
ID:	82926  

    Quote Quote  
  5. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Italy
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by rgr View Post
    But is it worse? Is it better to see 1% more or better to see 99% clearer?
    Intrinsic quality consideration apart, what has not been lost can be "recentered" and the rest can be "cleared". What is lost, is lost. In this specific case is not that important, because we are talking about some stripes in the white lines; in other cases you can miss important details.
    Quote Quote  
  6. Originally Posted by Krazern View Post
    ... I meant that if i try to adjust brightness and contrast in e.g vdub i can recover details in whites that look blown (not in the range?).
    I did that to this EH65 sample below.
    No, you didn't really recover much. The clipped luma has just been shifted down to Y=216, but is still clipped as you can see from the solid lines at Y=216. The clipping is not catastrophic, buts it's there, killing details and gradients in that area.

    Edit: and the colors are too bluish. But that's a different story. Something for post processing. In RGB it's mainly the blue which gets clipped.

    Edit2: Attachment 2 added, same as above but correctly scaled.
    Image Attached Files
    Last edited by Sharc; 19th Oct 2024 at 05:23.
    Quote Quote  
  7. Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Australia-PAL Land
    Search Comp PM
    @Krazern, I haven't been following closely so may have missed it, but are you using the proc amp in your capture software to adjust your levels before capture?
    Quote Quote  
  8. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2023
    Location
    Poland
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
    Originally Posted by Krazern View Post
    ... I meant that if i try to adjust brightness and contrast in e.g vdub i can recover details in whites that look blown (not in the range?).
    I did that to this EH65 sample below.
    No, you didn't really recover much. The clipped luma has just been shifted down to Y=216, but is still clipped as you can see from the solid lines at Y=216. The clipping is not catastrophic, buts it's there, killing details and gradients in that area.

    Edit: and the colors are too bluish. But that's a different story. Something for post processing. In RGB it's mainly the blue which gets clipped.
    Of course i didn't recover much but the "standard" method didn't as well. Thats my point here.

    https://imgsli.com/MzA5MTE0
    Quote Quote  
  9. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2023
    Location
    Poland
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    @Krazern, I haven't been following closely so may have missed it, but are you using the proc amp in your capture software to adjust your levels before capture?
    In BMD media express i just capture the HDMI signal without changing it. I adjust it later in post processing
    Quote Quote  
  10. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Italy
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Krazern View Post
    Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
    Originally Posted by Krazern View Post
    ... I meant that if i try to adjust brightness and contrast in e.g vdub i can recover details in whites that look blown (not in the range?).
    I did that to this EH65 sample below.
    No, you didn't really recover much. The clipped luma has just been shifted down to Y=216, but is still clipped as you can see from the solid lines at Y=216. The clipping is not catastrophic, buts it's there, killing details and gradients in that area.

    Edit: and the colors are too bluish. But that's a different story. Something for post processing. In RGB it's mainly the blue which gets clipped.
    Of course i didn't recover much but the "standard" method didn't as well. Thats my point here.

    https://imgsli.com/MzA5MTE0
    You reversed the images (on the left is the E65). In the standard method there are (marginally) more details in the white areas.
    Quote Quote  
  11. Originally Posted by Krazern View Post
    Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
    Originally Posted by Krazern View Post
    ... I meant that if i try to adjust brightness and contrast in e.g vdub i can recover details in whites that look blown (not in the range?).
    I did that to this EH65 sample below.
    No, you didn't really recover much. The clipped luma has just been shifted down to Y=216, but is still clipped as you can see from the solid lines at Y=216. The clipping is not catastrophic, buts it's there, killing details and gradients in that area.

    Edit: and the colors are too bluish. But that's a different story. Something for post processing. In RGB it's mainly the blue which gets clipped.
    Of course i didn't recover much but the "standard" method didn't as well. Thats my point here.

    https://imgsli.com/MzA5MTE0
    Once the signal gets clipped anywhere along the workflow (camera, player, passthrough device, capture device) one cannot recover it. Clipped is clipped, lost is lost. Clipping of noise spikes and halos are accepted though.
    Quote Quote  
  12. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Italy
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Krazern View Post
    Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    @Krazern, I haven't been following closely so may have missed it, but are you using the proc amp in your capture software to adjust your levels before capture?
    In BMD media express i just capture the HDMI signal without changing it. I adjust it later in post processing
    You can't adjust. You should avoid clipping whites and crushing blacks at capture stage. Check the doom'9 german forum, there are a lot of indication about the brigthness issues with the "alternative" methods. German users Sharc and Bogilein can support you
    Quote Quote  
  13. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2023
    Location
    Poland
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    Originally Posted by Krazern View Post
    Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
    Originally Posted by Krazern View Post
    ... I meant that if i try to adjust brightness and contrast in e.g vdub i can recover details in whites that look blown (not in the range?).
    I did that to this EH65 sample below.
    No, you didn't really recover much. The clipped luma has just been shifted down to Y=216, but is still clipped as you can see from the solid lines at Y=216. The clipping is not catastrophic, buts it's there, killing details and gradients in that area.

    Edit: and the colors are too bluish. But that's a different story. Something for post processing. In RGB it's mainly the blue which gets clipped.
    Of course i didn't recover much but the "standard" method didn't as well. Thats my point here.

    https://imgsli.com/MzA5MTE0
    You reversed the images (on the left is the E65). In the standard method there are (marginally) more details in the white areas.
    I didn't, you can see it by the head switching line because HDMI route captures whole frame here
    Quote Quote  
  14. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Italy
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Krazern View Post
    I didn't, you can see it by the head switching line because HDMI route captures whole frame here
    You did it, the naming on the top does not match. BTW the extra lines capture by the HDMI route are not that good anyhow.
    Quote Quote  
  15. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2023
    Location
    Poland
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    Originally Posted by Krazern View Post
    I didn't, you can see it by the head switching line because HDMI route captures whole frame here
    You did it, the naming on the top does not match. BTW the extra lines capture by the HDMI route are not good anyhow.
    Check the bottom right corner, the switching line is longer on EH65 capture.
    Quote Quote  
  16. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Italy
    Search Comp PM
    You do not seem to realize, I give up (is not that important, what needed has been said)
    Quote Quote  
  17. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2023
    Location
    Poland
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    You do not seem to realize, I give up (is not that important, what needed has been said)
    I uploaded edited EH65 single frame to comparsion .
    Here are the images.
    Image Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	EH65-Intensity-edited.png
Views:	12
Size:	645.6 KB
ID:	82943  

    Click image for larger version

Name:	ES10-Hauppauge.png
Views:	11
Size:	642.1 KB
ID:	82944  

    Click image for larger version

Name:	EH65-Intensity.png
Views:	15
Size:	646.0 KB
ID:	82945  

    Quote Quote  
  18. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Italy
    Search Comp PM
    Last attempt. From your sources j668.avi (Hauppauge USB-Live 2) and J668-EH65.avi (DMR-EH65):

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Immagine.png
Views:	85
Size:	1.80 MB
ID:	82946
    Quote Quote  
  19. Originally Posted by oln View Post
    The B.E.S.T setting (called D.S.P.C on the philips) will also impact things if it's enabled as it tweaks the deemphasis/eq of the image a little based on some heuristics afaik so it could blur/sharpen things a little - I don't think it does anything in EDIT mode even though it shows up but not entirely sure.
    From what I understand the B.E.S.T feature works at the RF level before the signal has any visual meaning, So I highly doubt it has any effect on the video visually (besides noise), RF is essentially like digital, good signal means the content is intact, bad signal means glitches in this case RF noise.[/QUOTE]

    The operation of B.E.S.T/Video calibration is described in the attached JVC Video technical guide (VTG82081) and only notes adjusting deemphasis and noise reduction parameters though it's of course entirely possible they altered how it worked in later implementations.

    That said changes in frequency response of the rf signal can also have some impact on the final softness/sharpness/ringing of the image output, though it will pretty quickly result in streaks and noise as well if it's too off. (Can be observed if you mess with the rf eq trimpots on an older vcr)
    Image Attached Thumbnails JVC HR-VP830U E939EG J936MS video VTG82081.pdf  

    Quote Quote  
  20. Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Wrocław
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    Last attempt. From your sources j668.avi (Hauppauge USB-Live 2) and J668-EH65.avi (DMR-EH65):

    Image
    [Attachment 82946 - Click to enlarge]
    It may mean something, but not necessarily. Below is the same frame from the same equipment (here: Panasonic NV-HD630, I generally think that Panasonics give a more natural image than JVCs). The only difference -- the frame on the right is from the second copy.
    Image Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	same-clip2.png
Views:	18
Size:	929.4 KB
ID:	83066  

    Quote Quote  
  21. Originally Posted by rgr View Post
    (... here: Panasonic NV-HD630, I generally think that Panasonics give a more natural image than JVCs).
    "Natural colors" of analog VHS (S-VHS) video is a topic of its own as much as a personal preference. I usually start with a white balance check/adjustments and then apply some more color grading to make home VHS look "more natural" - as good as it gets and fits my preference.
    Quote Quote  



Similar Threads

Visit our sponsor! Try DVDFab and backup Blu-rays!