Is This A Good Deal? Capture Setup For Sale via DigitalFaq

[companda]

Here's the link to the post. I had some questions regarding it, since the OP is a fairly new user. Their computer setup is a Windows XP machine that they said was suggested by the users at DigitalFaq; they say "everything was tested," but don't really go into what that entails. Would love to hear your guys thoughts.

[dellsam34]

Depends on what you need it for, Few tapes? use a fraction of that money to get it done by someone who knows their ass from their head, just ask for recommendations, don't go by online or radio ads. For business? maybe, A hobbyist? You may not need all that gear if you already have a computer, you can start with a good S-VHS VCR, a DVD recorder in passthrough and a good known USB capture stick, and upgrade as you go when you run into problems.

[lollo]

I agree with dellsam34. Today there is no need to buy obsolete PC running Windows XP and capturing with separate audio/video cards.

The main of the quality comes from the player, look for one of the recommended JVC or Panasonic S-VHS VCR (the proposed 7600 is ok, 9500 and 9600 series are better, but what matters today are the conditions of the device more than the exact model).

Use a modern desktop or laptop running Windows 10 or 11.

Capture with a Hauppauge USB-Live 2 or a IOData GV-USB with AmarecTV, the quality will be in pair with the proposed solution.

If your tapes need it, add an external TBC as the one proposed.

[frank_footer]

i don't care what the computer is used for, i would never pay $750 for a computer with core2duo + 2gb ram.

more importantly, there is no reason to use such an old operating system, lollo seems to think that the Hauppauge USB-Live 2 is a good modern solution and this device works with Linux:

https://www.hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_usblive2.html

there is also a linux driver for the IOData GV-USB:

https://github.com/Isaac-Lozano/GV-USB2-Driver

for 750 clams i would treat myself to a modern computer, install ubuntu or one of the off-shoots like mint and capture away.

[lollo]

lollo seems to think that the Hauppauge USB-Live 2 is a good modern solution[/url]

It is not my thinking, but a fact. There are many many samples in the forums and around about captures with USB Live-2 (and GV-USB2)

[lordsmurf]

Here's the link to the post. I had some questions regarding it, since the OP is a fairly new user. Their computer setup is a Windows XP machine that they said was suggested by the users at DigitalFaq; they say "everything was tested," but don't really go into what that entails. Would love to hear your guys thoughts.

- I don't really see why this post was made on this site.
- I gave a long reply in that thread. Several of us had some back and forth banter, actually.
- The capture system is a decent AIW XP build, using quality components.
- The OP there did address the testing, and I'm satisfied that he did his DD, based on his text.

i don't care what the computer is used for, i would never pay $750 for a computer with core2duo + 2gb ram.

It's not about the CPU or RAM. It's about the components, and the setup process/time/skill. Quality components have costs, regardless of age. Capturing analog video is itself an aged/legacy task. This isn't a random gamer computer, or a budget build for kids/parents. It has very specific needs. In fact, not everybody can build such as system, there are challenges to it. For video capture, a 2010s system is as modern as it needs to be. This is a capture box, not a daily driver, not the editing/Avisynth system, etc. Just capture, clean system, offline.

lollo seems to think that the Hauppauge USB-Live 2 is a good modern solution and this device works with Linux:

That's his opinion, and you're certainly welcome to try it. But there's a reason people opt for AIW or other cards. Don't think it's due to "not knowing" or whatever. We're perfectly aware of other options.

Few tapes? use a fraction of that money to get it done by someone who knows their ass from their head, just ask for recommendations, don't go by online or radio ads.

It's about trust. Not just in the random service, but mail delivery. "If you want it done right, do it yourself."

For business? maybe, A hobbyist? You may not need all that gear if you already have a computer, you can start with a good S-VHS VCR, a DVD recorder in passthrough and a good known USB capture stick, and upgrade as you go when you run into problems.

Don't start suggesting DVD recorders. Those are not TBCs. Those add just as many problems as they solve. DVD recorders are not, and never were, TBCs of any kind. Most business and hobbyists want quality from the start, not to do a mediocre job now, and better later. Extra expenses. With video, you will run into varying degrees of issues eventually, and more often than most people choose to think.

I agree with dellsam34. Today there is no need to buy obsolete PC running Windows XP and capturing with separate audio/video cards.

Tools are never obsolete when still viable for current needs. Power drills with driver bits long ago replaced manual screwdrivers, but most people still have them in the tool box/drawer. It's because those are still useful.

The main of the quality comes from the player, look for one of the recommended JVC or Panasonic S-VHS VCR (the proposed 7600 is ok, 9500 and 9600 series are better, but what matters today are the conditions of the device more than the exact model).

Yes, but let's expand on it:

- Player plays out image/audio quality from tape
- TBC right-sizes/correct it for capture, a prep step of sorts, maintain stability
- Capture card accepts quality, saves to computer (codec)

Each item can itself have quality/integrity to the prior item, or can vastly screw it up. Bad players, joke/weak/fake TBCs, Chinese crap capture cards.

Use a modern desktop or laptop running Windows 10 or 11.

There's really nothing modern here. Most CPUs are still just minor upgrades to the mid 2010s, in terms of per-core speeds. More CPU cores don't mean anything to capture, as it's still a single-core process. GPU gets all the love now. Everything is about power consumption now, so in actuality, some newer systems are actually downgrades (too "green" for a sustained uninterruptable tasks like capturing).

Win10 is just Win8 unfucked (a terrible OS), and Win11 is an attempt to streamline/"back to basics" from Win10. I actually quite like Win11 for non-capture.

It is not my thinking, but a fact. There are many many samples in the forums and around about captures with USB Live-2 (and GV-USB2)

The fact is that it's your opinion, and you're welcome to have it. But there's a reason other people do not use/own that card, and do not use that software. You found something to satisfy your needs (great!), but certain aspects are concerning to others.

[lollo]

lollo seems to think that the Hauppauge USB-Live 2 is a good modern solution and this device works with Linux:

That's his opinion, and you're certainly welcome to try it.

It is not my thinking, but a fact. There are many many samples in the forums and around about captures with USB Live-2 (and GV-USB2)

The fact is that it's your opinion, and you're welcome to have it.

No. No opinions there, just facts.

[dellsam34]

Don't start suggesting DVD recorders. Those are not TBCs. Those add just as many problems as they solve. DVD recorders are not, and never were, TBCs of any kind. Most business and hobbyists want quality from the start, not to do a mediocre job now, and better later. Extra expenses. With video, you will run into varying degrees of issues eventually, and more often than most people choose to think.

Well, I suggested a DVD recorder for someone who just started as a hobbyist because they usually don't have the funds, We all started from scratches, didn't we? and this is true for any type of hobby, Start with basic tools and you upgrade as you learn the tricks and your acquired skills demand better tools, I don't see why capturing video hobby should be any different?

[lordsmurf]

Don't start suggesting DVD recorders. Those are not TBCs. Those add just as many problems as they solve. DVD recorders are not, and never were, TBCs of any kind. Most business and hobbyists want quality from the start, not to do a mediocre job now, and better later. Extra expenses. With video, you will run into varying degrees of issues eventually, and more often than most people choose to think.

Well, I suggested a DVD recorder for someone who just started as a hobbyist because they usually don't have the funds, We all started from scratches, didn't we? and this is true for any type of hobby, Start with basic tools and you upgrade as you learn the tricks and your acquired skills demand better tools, I don't see why capturing video hobby should be any different?

Most hobbyists don't start with the most basic intro level item. Those are for non-hobbyists. For example, lowest-end bikes and cameras. And if somebody does happen to start that way (usually as a gift), they quickly upgrade. It's just wasted money.

Remember, I come from the hobby (and analog) side of video, my pro days started a decade later. TV/toon collectors especially are "my people". I've been away from it for far too long, that will change.

With video, you don't want something that incurs image damage, even if it fixes other aspects. Your casual one-time low-end DIY'er may cross his eyes and ignore it, but most hobbyists still do not. Even now, still, I meet toon/TV hobbyists with pretty high expectations (many even more than my own).

Many would drool over this kind of workflow, and somebody will buy it eventually. Probably sooner than later. Sometimes sites get an influx is cheapskate members that don't really reflect the broader market and economy. Vocal minorities.

[companda]

[QUOTE=lordsmurf;2748915]

Here's the link to the post. I had some questions regarding it, since the OP is a fairly new user. Their computer setup is a Windows XP machine that they said was suggested by the users at DigitalFaq; they say "everything was tested," but don't really go into what that entails. Would love to hear your guys thoughts.
- I don't really see why this post was made on this site.
- I gave a long reply in that thread. Several of us had some back and forth banter, actually.
- The capture system is a decent AIW XP build, using quality components.
- The OP there did address the testing, and I'm satisfied that he did his DD, based on his text.

This post was made shortly after my initial contact with OP and before you responded. The post's approval process took several hours, after which you responded in depth.

edit: I'm not sure why they formatting is off, but this was in response to LordSmurf.

[frank_footer]

No. No opinions there, just facts.

it's an opinion, just like saying coffee is a tastier drink than tea.

a fact would be if you measured the amount of caffeine per ounce and definitively stated that one has more caffeine then the other.

i haven't been here too long but from what i have seen it appears you have appointed yourself as the final authority on what is and is not the right way or the best way to do certain things and to me it comes off as really pompous.

i don't think it's very helpful to people that come here looking for advise if there are posters like you that act that their personal opinions are the final say and anyone that disagrees with you is wrong.

i think you need to check yourself.

[frank_footer]

It's not about the CPU or RAM. It's about the components, and the setup process/time/skill. Quality components have costs, regardless of age. Capturing analog video is itself an aged/legacy task. This isn't a random gamer computer, or a budget build for kids/parents. It has very specific needs. In fact, not everybody can build such as system, there are challenges to it. For video capture, a 2010s system is as modern as it needs to be. This is a capture box, not a daily driver, not the editing/Avisynth system, etc. Just capture, clean system, offline.

That's his opinion, and you're certainly welcome to try it. But there's a reason people opt for AIW or other cards. Don't think it's due to "not knowing" or whatever. We're perfectly aware of other options.

i disagree, it's about not buying obsolete hardware.

while the all-in-wonders where great in their day, those days are long gone.

i would probably buy one of these and install it on an existing computer and save a ton of money and i suspect that this would give you better quality than a 9200 aiw:

https://www.amazon.com/Blackmagic-Design-Intensity-Capture-Playback/dp/B00U3QNP7Q

the way i read that other guys post sounded to me like a guy that realized he had wasted his time and on building that old system and now wants to find a sucker to recoup his expenses.

[dellsam34]

You don't need a $235 card to use the SD portion of it, It wouldn't give you any extra quality over a $50 card/device even if it works without problems.

[Alwyn]

- I don't really see why this post was made on this site.

Pretty obvious, the OP wanted a second opinion. He's not getting that over at DigitalFAQ. That's your, effectively, closed site, and that's fair enough. But know that that is cruelling a balanced picture for the newbys.

LS, your continued refusal to show us why an AIW is so much better that it justifies an XP machine does your cause no favours. Step back a bit and I think you will find that 99% of people would ask "who in their right mind would try to build an XP computer these days?". Without clear proof and facts, and given the quality of modern digitisers on Win 10 and 11 which you roundly criticise at every opportunity, people just aren't going to do it, and I don't blame them.

[lordsmurf]

while the all-in-wonders where great in their day, those days are long gone.

No, not true. The AIW still, to this day, gives some of the most accurate values (color, luma, exposure, gamma, contrast, etc + sharpness). Most other cards completely botch this in some way. Not surprising, seeing as how most USB cards have the same generic semiconductor chips, often with factory default firmwares.

i would probably buy one of these and install it on an existing computer and save a ton of money and i suspect that this would give you better quality than a 9200 aiw:
https://www.amazon.com/Blackmagic-Design-Intensity-Capture-Playback/dp/B00U3QNP7Q

Blackmagic cards are infamous for SD consumer analog ingest issues. I guess some people need to learn things the hard way, rather than do deep quality research to see what issues others have faced.

the way i read that other guys post sounded to me like a guy that realized he had wasted his time and on building that old system and now wants to find a sucker to recoup his expenses.

I'd suggest you're not very attuned to the video capture world. You see "a computer", and not the "capture system".

LS, your continued refusal to show us why an AIW is so much better

I'm getting there, my own timetable. I don't see anybody jumping to pay me a salary to dedicate my time to giving them the samples they demand. I do enough helping for free as it is, but it's just not good enough for some people. That's their problem, not mine.

Without clear proof and facts

No, the facts are the facts (and educated opinions are educated opinions). The problem is some people demand Youtube clips, because reading is hard. Some of us grew up without an internet, definitely without a Youtube. We used words to describe things, we had imaginations, we'd visualize concepts in our heads. If others can't do this, again, their problem, not mine.

This post was made shortly

Gotcha.

[lollo]

it's an opinion, just like saying coffee is a tastier drink than tea.

a fact would be if you measured the amount of caffeine per ounce and definitively stated that one has more caffeine then the other.

i haven't been here too long but from what i have seen it appears you have appointed yourself as the final authority on what is and is not the right way or the best way to do certain things and to me it comes off as really pompous.

i don't think it's very helpful to people that come here looking for advise if there are posters like you that act that their personal opinions are the final say and anyone that disagrees with you is wrong.

You probably do not know, but as I said, there are many examples of captures with the devices I mentioned in the forum and elsewhere. We often analyze the captures for detail, levels, colors, geometries and so on. There are also many comparisons between different cards. Just look at them!

I linked them many times in many posts, I just did not repeat that for the nth time.

What it seems and appears to you is false, because I always provided results and data, rather than words.

i think you need to check yourself.

I think you should turn your brain “on” before writing.

[lollo]

i would probably buy one of these and install it on an existing computer and save a ton of money and i suspect that this would give you better quality than a 9200 aiw:

https://www.amazon.com/Blackmagic-Design-Intensity-Capture-Playback/dp/B00U3QNP7Q

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/410062-Which-capture-of-my-old-VHS-looks-the-best

[thecoalman]

I have an XP machine I bought 14 years ago for $50 on CL with better specs than that. For $750 you could probably put a "new" machine together with new old stock.

Edit:
Had to laugh at this: "The PC is very heavy ...." Probably has room for 6 drives, in addition to the floppy slot and front panel for USB/firewire. AGP slot, 5 or 6 cards, blah, blah, blah. The gaming cases like this used to ship with a sling so you could carry it to LAN party. Oh the memories, I'm going to cry <siniff>

[Sharc]

Note for rookies: Sitting on perfect gear but not understanding (analog) video capturing won't help to produce decent results either.

[frank_footer]

No, not true. The AIW still, to this day, gives some of the most accurate values (color, luma, exposure, gamma, contrast, etc + sharpness). Most other cards completely botch this in some way. Not surprising, seeing as how most USB cards have the same generic semiconductor chips, often with factory default firmwares.

so do you feel that the aiw mentioned, or any aiw for that matter, is superior to something like this:

https://hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_hvr955q.html#overview

or this:

https://hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_quadhd.html

and you are right, i see what that guy is selling as a computer, to me calling it a "capture system" is jargon used to scam someone into paying a premium for an outdated system.

psychologically i could not bring myself to buy that thing at any price, not even 50 bucks, i would feel like i got taken for a ride.

[frank_footer]

i would probably buy one of these and install it on an existing computer and save a ton of money and i suspect that this would give you better quality than a 9200 aiw:

https://www.amazon.com/Blackmagic-Design-Intensity-Capture-Playback/dp/B00U3QNP7Q

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/410062-Which-capture-of-my-old-VHS-looks-the-best

what exactly is that supposed to prove?

without looking at the source we have no way of knowing which capture was the most accurate.

i assume when you capture you want the closest representation possible and then you will edit once it;s in digital form.

[lordsmurf]

so do you feel that the aiw mentioned, or any aiw for that matter, is superior to something like this:

Correct, that 955Q is garbage, that HD card is not for quality SD analog.

What you fail to understand is that Hauppauge was never known for quality cards, just low-end to mediocre cards. This stuff was sold everywhere from Office Depot to Walmart. Hauppauge had a few good cards, but "even a broken clock is right twice". For example, the PVR-250 and PVR-350 were decent for MPEG capturing, though very soft, The PVR-150 was a piece of crap, with horrible video exposure and audio distortion -- and yet, some people praised those cards as "just as good or better" compared to the 250/350. Hauppauge also had a "clone" of the ATI 600, but it was a specific version of a specific model, and yet other non-"clones" shared the model. Hauppauge (and Pinnacle) were horrid at recycling model numbers, for vastly different internals, for SKU reasons. This has not changed in 20 years. Whatever the current "new" card is, there are always people that praise it. Fast forward some years, many people admit to it being a POS in hindsight. Recency bias is real.

Do this for decades, as I have, and you see how cyclical stuff is. "Same old song and dance", "rinse and repeat".

and you are right, i see what that guy is selling as a computer, to me calling it a "capture system" is jargon used to scam someone into paying a premium for an outdated system.

It's not meant for playing Minecraft, browsing Facebook, whatever. If you want "a computer", then go to Best Buy (or wherever) and pick one up for pennies to bullion. But realize it's not a tweaked attuned system for capturing analog SD video, and you'll be here posting "help me plz, my video rip no worky". The common answers for capturing are, aside from no TBC, hyperactive "modern" computers.

psychologically i could not bring myself to buy that thing at any price, not even 50 bucks, i would feel like i got taken for a ride.

Then don't. Feel free to screw around with something untested and unproven, wasting your life to not get quality results for your time and efforts. Not everybody in this world is worried about pinching pennies. They value time and sanity more, and are willing to pay for it. Someday, you probably will too.

The irony to this is that the same people who whine about a few hundred bucks are the ones with overly fancy $1k+ phones in their pockets, gamer/Mac computers, large NAS, etc -- and also probably plenty of other vices to drain their wallets beyond just tech toys. It's about priorities. Some want good video, some just want to gripe for sport.

For $750 you could probably put a "new" machine together with new old stock.

Probably, but skill required. The newer the hardware, the more tedious it gets. SATA is a minimum now. excluding OS drive (but even then, suggested).

[lollo]

what exactly is that supposed to prove?

That some people fall into the category mentioned in post #19

[lollo]

What you fail to understand is that Hauppauge was never known for quality cards, just low-end to mediocre cards.

That's (partially) false.

For DVB-S and DVB-T capture, Hauppauge has been for years the reference; its WinTV DVB-S in in the early 2000s and later, and then its Nexus was a dream becoming true for many of us. The other products in this segment were also excellent.

For Analog Capture, the USB-Live 2 is excellent. For this card, your theory about "recycling model numbers" has been proven to be false many times.

For HDMI capture, the Hauppauge HD PVR Pro 60 that I own and similar products are all right.

For MPEG2 I have no experience, so I won't comment (that's why I wrote "partially" at the beginning).

[frank_footer]

I think you should turn your brain “on” before writing.

feel free to lead by example.

[lollo]

I think you should turn your brain “on” before writing.

feel free to lead by example.

I never did otherwise, and in any case, it would be pearls before swine

[rgr]

[QUOTE=lollo;2749088]

For HDMI capture, the Hauppauge HD PVR Pro 60 that I own and similar products are all right.

If you send 576i video to PVR60, does it record mp4(mov) in 576i or 576p? In VFR or CFR?

For MPEG2 I have no experience, so I won't comment (that's why I wrote "partially" at the beginning).

I think there is nothing better than DVD recorders with LSI Logic chips (JVC, Ferguson, etc.).

[lollo]

For HDMI capture, the Hauppauge HD PVR Pro 60 that I own and similar products are all right.

If you send 576i video to PVR60, does it record mp4(mov) in 576i or 576p? In VFR or CFR?

Two samples attached for you. No CRF available for SD interlaced input signals (the only doubt I have is that the HDMI output of my Vu+ Duo 4K SE was set to 60Hz (for my Samsung TV), but I do not think it is relevant). Not the best handling of not HD signals, in any case.



Pro60_20240903_1731.mp4

Pro60_20240903_1737.mp4

For MPEG2 I have no experience, so I won't comment (that's why I wrote "partially" at the beginning).

I think there is nothing better than DVD recorders with LSI Logic chips (JVC, Ferguson, etc.).

From the hardware point of view, yes. However, we compared the results of that with the lossless capture of a Hauppauge USB-Live 2, and the results was obvious https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12740-current-capture-device-3.html.
I mention this because the USB-Live 2 capturing compressed MPEG2 is very good (I do not find the specific thread to link right now, sorry, search for it if you wish), so that hardware approach is not convincing anyhow.

edit: comparison added here compare_huffyuv_mpeg2.avi

[rgr]

For HDMI capture, the Hauppauge HD PVR Pro 60 that I own and similar products are all right.

If you send 576i video to PVR60, does it record mp4(mov) in 576i or 576p? In VFR or CFR?

Two samples attached for you. No CRF available for SD interlaced input signals (the only doubt I have is that the HDMI output of my Vu+ Duo 4K SE was set to 60Hz (for my Samsung TV), but I do not think it is relevant). Not the best handling of not HD signals, in any case.

I forgot to add that I meant recording to SD card via PVR, without the use of a computer.
I'm going to buy and compare with ER330, but I always lack time. I wanted to verify the answer from their helpdesk that it records in 576i.
And the samples are difficult to evaluate -- lots of duplicate frames, the source material is probably 24/25fps.

[frank_footer]

how about something like this:

https://vhsconverters.com/vhs-to-digital-with-a-pcie-capture-card/

i just can't fathom spending 750 bucks on such an old computer, or using an old, outdated, aiw card on any old computer, or capturing video via usb.

it just seems so wrong and frankly the demeanor of those promoting those solutions doesn't really inspire confidence.