DVD Damage Caused by CLEAR DVD Case. Have you experienced this?

[Betamax2033]

All my DVD-Rs have been stored vertically in cases in a cool dry place for the last 20 years.
Due to lack of storage space I've started moving my DVD-Rs from cases to (high quality) paper sleeves.
Which is when I noticed that some of the DVD-Rs had some very odd damage. (See attached photographs).

I have never seen anything like this before, and I am curious to know if anyone else has experienced it.

It has not occurred TO DVD-Rs STORED in black plastic cases.
It has only occurred to DVD-Rs stored in clear PLASTIC CASES, but not in all clear plastic cases.
It has happened only with a certain type of plastic case. (I don't have the knowledge to id the type of plastic).

As the pattern that appears on the DVD-R also appears on the surface of the DVD case, I'm assuming some sort
of "reaction" occurred in the plastic case causing to spray plastic onto the DVD-R.

At this point I'm holding off any "cleaning" until I know more.

Any information you may have about this matter will be most gratefully received.


[Attachment 81813 - Click to enlarge]
[Attachment 81814 - Click to enlarge]

[themaster1]

cheap brand ?

[Skiller]

I'm suspecting it's a reaction caused by either direct contact with or fumes from a substance used in production of the clear cases.

What happens if you wipe the case with a damp paper towel? Does the pattern wipe away?

(I don't have the knowledge to id the type of plastic).

Plastic products almost always have a stamp in the shape of a triangle with a number and 2-4 letters to indicate the type of plastic. Try to find it on the cases, it may be very small.

Looks like this for example:

[Attachment 82013 - Click to enlarge]
(Low Density Polyethylen)

[Betamax2033]

Thank you for your reply. It is appreciated.

What happens if you wipe the case with a damp paper towel? Does the pattern wipe away?

Believe it or not, I have no paper towels.

The surface of the case; directly below where the DVD sat is a little sticky. The plastic pattern is "raised".

I wipe it with a damp microfibre cloth but the pattern remains.

On the DVD the pattern is "raised", you can feel it.

I used a micro fibre cloth on this with some "DVD cleaning fluid" and after a little scrubbing it disappeared.

However, while the surface of the DVD is smooth, the pattern can still be seen in the surface of the DVD.

And cannot be read.

As it cannot be read, I've nothing to lose and will try something a little more abrasive, not destructive, to see how deep the reaction went.

(I don't have the knowledge to id the type of plastic).

Plastic products almost always have a stamp in the shape of a triangle with a number and 2-4 letters to indicate the type of plastic. Try to find it on the cases, it may be very small.

I checked a number of black plastic cases. They all had the triangle logo with a 5 inside. With PP underneath.

I checked a number of clear plastic cases, those that had a marking had a triangle with a 5 inside. With PP underneath.

Many of the clear plastic cases had no triangle mark, that I could find.

I also checked the additional mounts, (pages? flaps?), in the DVD case that holds 6 DVDs, (what are they called?), but these had no markings.

So I can't ID the plastic they are made of, and this is where the really bad damage was caused.

On the positive side after going through all my disks; only about 20 have suffered this event, and fortunately I believe I have backups of the data.

Still, it's concerning that after properly storing every thing this could happen. And I surprised no one else has brought it up.

Thank you once again for your help.

[mail2tom]

Interesting thread. It tracks with an unrelated experience that I had explained to me when I bought a new car. No longer being a cigarette smoker, I asked the car dealership why the interior of my car windows was getting a film on it, similar to what would happen if I had continued to smoke cigarettes in the car. I was told it was caused by the fumes from the plastics used for the interior of the car. Makes my lungs hurt just thinking about that.

[lordsmurf]

Too many cases warp discs. Over the longer term, what you see happens.

[Skiller]

I don't think it's caused mechanically (warping).
If it was purely mechanical, there would be no sticky stuff.


In my opinion, the fact that the affected cases do not even state what plastic they are made of, and because the pattern cannot be wiped off, encourages my inital suspicion they are made of wonky substances and/or low quality raw materials which cause a chemical reaction with the Polycarbonate of the DVDs over the course of many years.


You mentioned the cases were stored in a cool and dry place, but what about exposure to light?

[Betamax2033]

You mentioned the cases were stored in a cool and dry place, but what about exposure to light?

All the cases were stored two deep in bookcases. No direct sunlight. Just the natural shaded light in the room. And all the cases had a slipcover.

And the event only happened to the degree shown on the additional internal mounts. (Do those things have an official name?)

[lordsmurf]

Those double platters heavily warp media. What you see here is micro cracks to the inner bonding, and it has allows air seep to oxide the dye layer into the patterns you see. There's nothing unusual here, seen it before.

What is the media ID / brand of these disc? That give a tell-tale to bonding (non)quality.

I actually like the idea of micro cracks + offgassing ("fumes"), that would give the "push" we see that created the patterns. Air alone has no reason to move, but offgassing does.

[Betamax2033]

thank you for your reply.

Those double platters heavily warp media.

None of the DVDs are warped. As in deformed/bent, warp vinyl LP. They just have the pattern you see in the photographs.

What you see here is micro cracks to the inner bonding, and it has allows air seep to oxide the dye layer into the patterns you see.

So the outgassing from the clear plastic platters causes micro creaks and allows air in. any idea why it creates such a pretty pattern?

There's nothing unusual here, seen it before.

You've seen exactly this problem before? May I ask when and what you saw?

What is the media ID / brand of these disc?

I use Verbatim. And have done since the early 2000s.
I have Verbatim discs from back then, that can still be read perfectly. No problems at all.

That give a tell-tale to bonding (non)quality.

I can only say that the Verbatim disc's I been using for the last 20 years are fine, expect for the handful that suffered this plastic outgassing event.
Verbatim did release a bluray disc that was cheaper having some new method for making it, the burning side was gold. I tried them. They all failed within a few months. If not faster. I haven't seen them for sale since.

I actually like the idea of micro cracks + offgassing ("fumes"), that would give the "push" we see that created the patterns. Air alone has no reason to move, but offgassing does.

OK, so its an outgassing event. And it creates these very unusual patterns.

I'll see if I can recover any of the discs, how deep does the damage go, or is it just on the surface, and report back. It may be a week or two.

[lordsmurf]

NOTE: I'm operating with the information gives, the photos. It appears to be dye-layer issues, not external polycarbonate/plastic damage. Or possibly both. I'd need exhaustive photos (since you don't know what you're looking at, or looking for), or to see a disc in-hand.

Those double platters heavily warp media.

None of the DVDs are warped. As in deformed/bent, warp vinyl LP. They just have the pattern you see in the photographs.

DVDs high tiny tolerances, microns to mm, not something you can see with your eyes. Warping is still highly likely here. Even just flexing the disc off the hub (rather than depressing the hub) can cause irreparable damage to discs.

What you see here is micro cracks to the inner bonding, and it has allows air seep to oxide the dye layer into the patterns you see.

So the outgassing from the clear plastic platters causes micro creaks and allows air in. any idea why it creates such a pretty pattern?

No, read it again. The cases/hubs stress the discs, cause micro-cracks in the disc bonding, and it allows air to oxidize the dye layer. Normally this just presents as small "fan" patterns on the outer edges or inner edges. But these wild formations you see may be from offgassing (or "off-gassing", but not "outgassing"), as the gasses in a sealed(ish) container may be swirling around inside. Offgassing is why we have "new car smell", but also why freshly painted rooms stink (VOCs)

There's nothing unusual here, seen it before.

You've seen exactly this problem before? May I ask when and what you saw?

- The oxidize error is common. The offgassing is an interesting twist.
- I did optical media research, starting in the late 90s, heavily/mostly in the 00s, then stopping in the mid 10s (because the format is essentially now dead, nothing "new" to research or learn, mostly all known knowns now). I still get inquiries from college students (thesis/etc), a certain media company. Also a few Youtubers, because other Youtubers are idiots claiming DVD myths as facts.

What is the media ID / brand of these disc?

I use Verbatim. And have done since the early 2000s.
I have Verbatim discs from back then, that can still be read perfectly. No problems at all.

Alright, but understand that "Verbatim" is just a brand name, the MID still matters. Same for era/age of the disc. A Verbatim could be high-quality MKM, or craptastic Life Series early CMC (not AZO CMC).

Verbatim did release a bluray disc that was cheaper having some new method for making it, the burning side was gold. I tried them. They all failed within a few months. If not faster. I haven't seen them for sale since.

Yes, and I got onto a pair of companies for this fact. The entire "gold" snafu was due to customer ignorance, falsely thinking "gold" is better material for DVDs. Basic science would make you realize that, but most people don't know science, "science is hard". Customers demanded "gold", companies obliged, but harmed their own reputation in the process. Because, duh, gold has garbage reflectivity to the wavelength of a DVD dye sandwich, unlike silvery alloys. Education and marketing was needed, not providing junk to their dumbest customers.

I actually like the idea of micro cracks + offgassing ("fumes"), that would give the "push" we see that created the patterns. Air alone has no reason to move, but offgassing does.

OK, so its an outgassing event. And it creates these very unusual patterns.

Outgassing is hypothesis here, but it's very plausible. I looked at some science references before I ever replied with the suggestion. Like I wrote above, that's an interesting twist on dye oxidizing.

I'll see if I can recover any of the discs, how deep does the damage go, or is it just on the surface, and report back. It may be a week or two.

I'd need to see a disc in-hand. But from the images I see here, the dye is oxidized in patterns, so it's a total loss of data.

But even if we assume I'm wrong about bonding/dye, then it's an external polycarb issue. At best, it would need a resurfacing (with an actual $500+ RTI machine, not a $50 "doctor" toy).

Run ISO Puzzle on it.

[Betamax2033]

NOTE: I'm operating with the information gives, the photos. It appears to be dye-layer issues, not external polycarbonate/plastic damage. Or possibly both. I'd need exhaustive photos (since you don't know what you're looking at, or looking for), or to see a disc in-hand.

How many is exhaustive?

Those double platters heavily warp media.

How?

DVDs high tiny tolerances, microns to mm, not something you can see with your eyes. Warping is still highly likely here. Even just flexing the disc off the hub (rather than depressing the hub) can cause irreparable damage to discs.

Well, I'm currently transferring all my DVD-Rs to paper sleeves.

What you see here is micro cracks to the inner bonding, and it has allows air seep to oxide the dye layer into the patterns you see.

OK.

No, read it again.

Yes I did that. Twice maybe three times.

The cases/hubs stress the discs, cause micro-cracks in the disc bonding, and it allows air to oxidize the dye layer.

Makes you wonder why they put them in cases.

Normally this just presents as small "fan" patterns on the outer edges or inner edges. But these wild formations you see may be from offgassing (or "off-gassing", but not "outgassing"), as the gasses in a sealed(ish) container may be swirling around inside. Offgassing is why we have "new car smell", but also why freshly painted rooms stink (VOCs)

As the patterns on the DVD are a mirror of what you can see on the platter, I'm thinking it's outgassing from the platters, rather than damage to the DVDs.

The oxidize error is common. The offgassing is an interesting twist.

In twenty years I've never seen it. And some of the DVDs that have been damaged I used only a few years ago. Which seems to indicate the plastic platters, that outgassed did it in the last few years.

I did optical media research, starting in the late 90s, heavily/mostly in the 00s, then stopping in the mid 10s (because the format is essentially now dead, nothing "new" to research or learn, mostly all known knowns now). I still get inquiries from college students (thesis/etc), a certain media company. Also a few Youtubers, because other Youtubers are idiots claiming DVD myths as facts.

Alright, but understand that "Verbatim" is just a brand name,

I am aware.

the MID still matters. Same for era/age of the disc. A Verbatim could be high-quality MKM, or craptastic Life Series early CMC (not AZO CMC).

I am aware of the Media Identification Code (MID), and have always insisted on MKM.

Yes, and I got onto a pair of companies for this fact. The entire "gold" snafu was due to customer ignorance, falsely thinking "gold" is better material for DVDs.

I never assumed that the discs were made from "gold".

Basic science would make you realize that,

Yes I was aware. I purchased a small number for testing. They seemed to fine. I purcahsed a half cake. Then after a while they started to fail.

but most people don't know science, "science is hard".

Yes, I know. Its why I tested a number of discs to see how long they'd last.

Customers demanded "gold", companies obliged, but harmed their own reputation in the process.

When I used the term "gold" I meant that the burnable surface was coloured gold. If I remember correctly the disc's were some new type that Verbatim claimed were easier of faster to make and just as good. Of course the Verbatim "Lifetime Warranty" isn't worth anything. Fortunately while the disc's died, I didn't lose any data.

Because, duh, gold has garbage reflectivity to the wavelength of a DVD dye sandwich, unlike silvery alloys. Education and marketing was needed, not providing junk to their dumbest customers.

I hope you're not suggesting that I was a dumb customer. A new product came out. I tried it. It was bad. I never used them again.

I actually like the idea of micro cracks + offgassing ("fumes"), that would give the "push" we see that created the patterns. Air alone has no reason to move, but offgassing does.

Outgassing is hypothesis here, but it's very plausible. I looked at some science references before I ever replied with the suggestion. Like I wrote above, that's an interesting twist on dye oxidizing.

Whatever the cause it's very weird. I would have expected more people reporting something like this.

I'd need to see a disc in-hand. But from the images I see here, the dye is oxidized in patterns, so it's a total loss of data.

We'll see.

But even if we assume I'm wrong about bonding/dye, then it's an external polycarb issue. At best, it would need a resurfacing (with an actual $500+ RTI machine, not a $50 "doctor" toy). Run ISO Puzzle on it.

Fortunately I have much of the material backed up. So I'm not looking at massive losses.
Could you link me to an RTI machine? I did look, but I'm not sure what you're referring too.

Thanks for the feedback.

[lordsmurf]

I hope you're not suggesting that I was a dumb customer. A new product came out. I tried it. It was bad. I never used them again.

No, not at all. What I refer to is a special cohort of stubborn customers that ignores facts, instead believe marketing. Lemmings, sheep, idiots, whatever you choose to call them. That's not you, from our conversation here. I replied to this first, want no confusion here.

There's also a lot of "archivists" (including big organizations!) that don't do any due diligence (DD). It's similar to how too many doctors just prescribe drugs based on what a drug rep tells them. Quacks, all of them.

How many is exhaustive?

Good lighting, zero/near-zero reflections multiple angles, both sides, macro/close-up of bonding and swirls if possible. Same for the cases.

Well, I'm currently transferring all my DVD-Rs to paper sleeves.

Paper is made of trees. You're essentially rubbing your discs with tree bark. For the same reason, wiping a disc with a paper towels or napkin is damaging. Sleeves are best. Not often wallets, too many of those also warp discs.

Makes you wonder why they put them in cases.

It's not just any case. For example, name-branded Amaray was often fine. Fake Amaray, or no-name junk, is what screwed up discs. But even Amary QC could suck. If you ever feel a disc flex whatsoever, the case or tray is bad. The disc should spin freely, though too much spin was also bad.

As the patterns on the DVD are a mirror of what you can see on the platter, I'm thinking it's outgassing from the platters, rather than damage to the DVDs.

Not necessarily. If the outgassing caused a chemical reaction to the dye, not just oxidizing, then it could have changed the polycard in those spots to affect the tray.

In twenty years I've never seen it.

Yeah, but how many discs have you seen? I've easily handled 100,000+ discs over the year, mostly in the 00s and earliest 10s. I've also had many discs submitted to me for R&D.

I am aware of the Media Identification Code (MID), and have always insisted on MKM.

Remember, fake MKM/MCC was very popular in the late 00s. Even the Verbatim packaging was being faked. And while most were sold on 3rd-party sites like eBay, some stores got suckered. For example, person ordered fakes online, bought legit from stores, "returned" fakes to store. We saw it back in the day.

I never assumed that the discs were made from "gold".

In the case of Verbatim, it was gold upper with silver under, because MCC knew gold wasn't reflective. Others like Mitsui/MAM (OEM'd by "Kodak" brand) were pure gold, and those company bankrupted the re-failed for a reason. Their discs were mostly garbage. Mitsui made great CD-R dyes in the 90s, but that was it.

Whatever the cause it's very weird.

It is! But we still see new weird stuff in the optical world, edge cases, normally related to wrong/bad disc storage, and chemical reactions that happened from it. Sometimes mold. (Uh-oh, I said the m-word, I may have just summoned gamemaniaco!)

Fortunately I have much of the material backed up.

Good on you! Same here, my DVDs are archived as ISO to 22tb HDDs.

Could you link me to an RTI machine? I did look, but I'm not sure what you're referring too.

This: https://amzn.to/3XIehWo
About $5k MSRP, used pricing varies wildly since obsolete and HTF.

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm truly busy these days, not much forum time, often brief when I do. But I can't resist a good optical media conversation, especially for something kooky like this. Fun mystery to solve.