VirtualDub 2 vs original VirtualDub frame rate conversion

[rgr]

But it has an additional step - conversion with an external program and unnecessary recompression.
Using AviSynth, you would directly load this VFR file into VDub, already converted to CFR "on-the-fly".

[S-da]

Rgr,
can AviSynth really recognize a variable framerate (VFR in a MP4-video) completely correctly and output it for VirtualDub2 "understandable"?
(If you would have to specify a framerate for Avisynth to recognize it, then it would probably not be really accurate.)
If AviSynth can do so, then what would you have to do, step by step, to set it up for VirtualDub2 (also including the contents of a script-file)?

[rgr]

Yes.

name1="input.mp4"
a=LWLibavAudioSource(name1)
AudioDub(LWLibavVideoSource(name1, fpsnum=30000,fpsden=1001), a) # for 29,97fps

or better:

name1="input.mp4"
a=LWLibavAudioSource(name1)
AudioDub(LWLibavVideoSource(name1).TimeCodeFPS(name1+".txt", fpsnum=30000,fpsden=1001), a)

but in this variant you must first create a timecode file:

mp4fpsmod.exe "input.mp4" -p "input.mp4.txt"

[S-da]

Rgr,
I do not know how to use this code.

Actually I only have VirtualDub2 installed.

What I meant, what I asked for, was an appropriate guide to setting it up (step by step):
What needs to be (additionally to VirtualDub2) installed and where, what needs to be set up and where, what needs to be created and where, ...
What is all to do to make it possible that a VFR of a MP4-video is processed correctly in VirtualDub2?

First, i have to install AviSynth, right? But simply a regular Installation of a program or something special, even to make it work with VirtualDub2?
And then, what is all to do next?

[rgr]

1. Download and install AviSynth:
https://www.videohelp.com/software/AviSynth-Plus
2. Download, unpack and upload to "C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth\plugins64" these plugins (only .dll x64 files):
https://github.com/HomeOfAviSynthPlusEvolution/L-SMASH-Works/releases
https://github.com/Asd-g/TimecodeFPS/releases
3. Create a file input.avs with Notepad and place my code in it (change the file name in the content to the correct one).
4. Load the file into VDub. Done.

[lordsmurf]

VDub2
And it's still the only good, flawless tool for capturing.

That's never been true. VirtualDub2 tends to induce overuse of resources, incur dropped frames, etc. The likely reason is that the software was massively bloated vs. the original VirtualDub. It can sometimes work for capture, but you must have a lean system, essentially only using it for capturing. No other software, not online, nothing. (In some rarer cases, often due to Nvidia drivers, VirtualDub2 works when VirtualDub will not. But that's not even 1% of the time. Or in certain known scenarios, like Tevion/XP, due to audio preview.)

And when I switched to it, VirtualDub2 showed me that many things in it had been improved compared to the previous VirtualDub, even previous errors in the handling. -

But the issue is that it broke as much as it added or fixed. Certain VirtualDub filters, and VirtualDub 1.9.x capturing, was perfectly fine. Even 1.10.x official wasn't as wonky. And the issue is that the developer of VirtualDub2 did not care. Just more of the modern "it worked for me (so who cares abut you?)" attitude.

Yes, VirtualDub2 is obviously not perfect, but still definitely my choice.

But choice for what? I agree, it's fine for some. But terrible for others.

Yes.
or better:

My concern would be that no amount of importing variable framerate video will be a final fix. There's always going to be issues in editing or watching. Variable framerate was such a stupid idea, a 2000s half-baked attempt to save on file size. Not to be confused with TS broadcasting, where it does (or rather did) make sense.

[rgr]

VDub2
And it's still the only good, flawless tool for capturing.

That's never been true. VirtualDub2 tends to induce overuse or resources, incur dropped frames, etc.

This has always been true, you just need to use it correctly. What I proved:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/416658-Nero-Video-Grabber-vs-Hauppauge-WinTV-USBli...-August-VGB300

[lordsmurf]

But you just linked a thread that sort-of proved my point?

And it used Easycaps.

But it is nice to see, in that thread, what I've said all along:

AmaRecTV doesn't report accurately

I'm just going to back away slowly, carry on.

[rgr]

I don't need to continue, everything is written there.

[Alwyn]

everything is written there.

And it's codswallop.

[rgr]

everything is written there.

And it's codswallop.

This is your opinion, which is absolutely irrelevant in the face of evidence.

[Alwyn]

This is your opinion, which is absolutely irrelevant in the face of evidence.

I'm happy that the tests that I have done confirm the drops/inserts by AmarecTV are exactly what it reports. Your tests may show something else. Believe what you want.

[rgr]

This is your opinion, which is absolutely irrelevant in the face of evidence.

I'm happy that the tests that I have done confirm the drops/inserts by AmarecTV are exactly what it reports. Your tests may show something else. Believe what you want.

It's great that it reports what it loses. However, VDub doesn't lose anything, and that's somehow more important.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/416658-Nero-Video-Grabber-vs-Hauppauge-WinTV-USBli...e2#post2778478

[spapakons]

Spapakons, I found this topic from you because I have a similar problem:

I use VirtualDub2 and wanted to edit a video there that I recorded with my smartphone. This video has a variable framerate (VFR) because it was recorded in near darkness (my phone is not the best). Basically, my phone has 30 FPS as standard for videos, but as soon as it is dark during a recording, the framerate becomes less.

And this video showed me that VirtualDub2 has a deficit.

The sound in this video is not played synchronously. At one point it is too early in relation, and at another point it is too late. Seemingly VirtualDub2 incorrectly turns the variable framerate into an overall average framerate for the video.

And you don't have to edit a video to see this problem. All you have to do is open such a video (with VFR) in VirtualDub2 and play it there. And I also compared it: I opened and played my video in the classic original VirtualDub, and it worked perfectly in sync there.

The questions are:
- Is there any way to fix or work around this error in VirtualDub2, possibly with any settings?
- Will there be a new version of it at some point in which this error has been corrected?
- Is it perhaps possible (as an intermediate step) to use another small program only to convert the frame rate (for VirtualDub2) at a constant rate, but preferably without loss of quality?

To deal with VFR and other modern incompatibilities that VirtualDub cannot handle by default, I use Handbrake to encode the video to a standard MKV with constant frame rate (CFR), I even convert it to 25fps CFR using Handbrake (audio sync is not affected if done properly). To avoid degrading the video but also keep the file size reasonably small, I use HEVC compression with an insanely high bitrate, such as 4000K for standard definition (1000K is enough) and 10000K for HD. Since Handbrake doesn't export to PCM audio, I use AC3 with 192K bitrate (128K is enough for CD quality). I then open the MKV file in VirtualDub 2 which thanks to the insanely high bitrate is almost lossless and edit as I want. Handbrake also does a really good job to deinterlace the video, so I also do that for TV recordings, because it is done with hardware acceleration (NVEnc HEVC codec) unlike VirtualDub that is software only.

[isidro]

Convert a short clip in the original VirtualDub and then convert the same clip in VirtualDub 2. Maybe it is not that obvious from 23.976fps to 25fps, but in case of 60fps to 25fps is much more pronounced. That was what I first did, a 60fps capture from my HDMI card to 25fps and was deeply disappointed because the original VirtualDub does it smoothly, like if the original video was 25fps.

Sorry to revive this, but usually VDub/VDub2 differences arises from using different Input Drivers. If you use VDub2 and when opening video file select the same input driver of old VDub (AVIFile/Avisynth input driver instead of Caching Input) you'll probably get same results as before.

[rgr]

xxx

[jagabo]

Sorry to revive this, but usually VDub/VDub2 differences arises from using different Input Drivers.

Which I pointed out in post #12.

[spapakons]

Convert a short clip in the original VirtualDub and then convert the same clip in VirtualDub 2. Maybe it is not that obvious from 23.976fps to 25fps, but in case of 60fps to 25fps is much more pronounced. That was what I first did, a 60fps capture from my HDMI card to 25fps and was deeply disappointed because the original VirtualDub does it smoothly, like if the original video was 25fps.

Sorry to revive this, but usually VDub/VDub2 differences arises from using different Input Drivers. If you use VDub2 and when opening video file select the same input driver of old VDub (AVIFile/Avisynth input driver instead of Caching Input) you'll probably get same results as before.

Well after more experimentation, I discovered that Virtualdub 2 does the conversion between NTSC to PAL (29.97fps or 23.976fps to 25fps) well without stuttering. However, my HDMI capture card records video at MJPEG 1920x1080 at 60fps (when used in VirtualDub original or VirtualDub 2). These 60fps MJPEG videos are not properly converted to 25fps using the new VirtulDub 2 application. So I reserve the original VirtualDub for converting these videos to 25fps. Anything else is handled OK by VirtualDub 2, so I use that mostly and have the original as backup. Once I also noticed that the conversion from 29.97fps to 25fps was extremely slow, but it wasn't a fair judgement since the computer did a lot stuff in the background affecting performance. One workaround is to open the video in VirtualDub 2, apply the cropping and other filters and then start the Frame Server. This produces a .vdr signpost file which cannot opened directly in other apps. I use a small AVISynth script to open it and save the script as .avs file. Some apps can open .avs files directly. For those that cannot, I open this file with the avfs utility of Vapoursynth to produce virtual .avi and .wav files which can be used in any other application. So I can import the virtual .wav file in Adobe Audition or Audacity to clear and normalize sound and save as .ac3 (Dolby Digital). I can also import the virtual .avi file in Handbrake to convert to .mp4 or .mkv or I can import it in AVSVideo Converter if I need an MPEG 2 version.

So to close this debate, yes VirtualDub 2 can handle standards conversion (NTSC to PAL and vice versa) good, but not any frame rate. It produces stuttering video when the source is 60fps, for example. So I use the original VirtualDub version for such non-standard videos, or I convert them with Handbrake if I don't need any other filters apart from resizing and frame rate conversion.

[rgr]

Well after more experimentation, I discovered that Virtualdub 2 does the conversion between NTSC to PAL (29.97fps or 23.976fps to 25fps) well without stuttering. However, my HDMI capture card records video at MJPEG 1920x1080 at 60fps (when used in VirtualDub original or VirtualDub 2).

What's the source resolution and fps?
Why are you converting from 60 fps to 25 fps anyway?

[isidro]

... These 60fps MJPEG videos are not properly converted to 25fps using the new VirtulDub 2 application. ...

Can you post a 1 or 2 seconds sample of your 60fps MJPEG video, and the correct conversion with old VDub, and a wrong one with VDub2 ?
If you can detail how did you opened them (input driver) and if you only used "Convert to fps:" under "Video/ Frame rate..." or something else. Thanks.

[spapakons]

Well after more experimentation, I discovered that Virtualdub 2 does the conversion between NTSC to PAL (29.97fps or 23.976fps to 25fps) well without stuttering. However, my HDMI capture card records video at MJPEG 1920x1080 at 60fps (when used in VirtualDub original or VirtualDub 2).

What's the source resolution and fps?
Why are you converting from 60 fps to 25 fps anyway?

According to MediaInfo, the native compression format of the HDMI capture card is MJPEG at 59.1Mbit/sec 1920x1080 60fps progressive. To get the best quality without stuttering I don't use other compression. An alternative is to capture with OBS studio using NVEnc HEVC codec at 10Mbps 1920x1080 25fps which gives indistinguishable quality from the native but takes much less disk space. That's an example that VirtualDub2 cannot properly convert to 25fps and stutters, while the original VirtualDub does so perfectly. An alternative is to use Handbrake for the frame rate conversion. Since I only captured a few seconds for the sample, and the file size is under 500MB, I will upload the original file, rather than 2 seconds.

PS: To satisfy your curiosity, I edit the video to cut out unwanted scenes and to create an AVCHD folder. (The .AVI file with AVS video and AC3 audio is imported to Multi-AVCHD to create the folder and then I can burn to DVD with Nero Burning ROM). That's why I want to convert to 25fps, to make the video AVCHD compliant, or DVD compliant if I want to create a standard DVD version.

[jagabo]

Decimating to 25p I get the same frames from VirutualDub1 and VirtualDub2.

You are capturing 25p frames at 60p. Actually, the source is probably 25i, the capture device (or software) is converting to 25p, then duplicating frames to make 60p. That leaves you with the basic pattern of AA BB CC DD EEEE. Ie, five different frames, ABCDE, are duplicated to make 12 frames, with one of them duplicated 4 times instead of 2. There are also some places where a frame appears only once. And it appears there are some skipped frames here and there.

Given the difficult-to-decimate repeat pattern, missing frames, etc., you would be best off getting a capture device that can capture at 25i or 25p. Or 50p. You can then avoid the problems of decimation. Those MJPEG HDMI capture devices can be had for as little as ~US$5.

[spapakons]

Decimating to 25p I get the same frames from VirutualDub1 and VirtualDub2.

You are capturing 25p frames at 60p. Actually, the source is probably 25i, the capture device (or software) is converting to 25p, then duplicating frames to make 60p. That leaves you with the basic pattern of AA BB CC DD EEEE. Ie, five different frames, ABCDE, are duplicated to make 12 frames, with one of them duplicated 4 times instead of 2. There are also some places where a frame appears only once. And it appears there are some skipped frames here and there.

Given the difficult-to-decimate repeat pattern, missing frames, etc., you would be best off getting a capture device that can capture at 25i or 25p. Or 50p. You can then avoid the problems of decimation. Those MJPEG HDMI capture devices can be had for as little as ~US$5.

I don't need another device, I can capture at 1080p 25fps using OBS Studio, so I can edit the video without having to convert the frame rate.

[isidro]

I have a cheap HDMI to USB small capture device. But capture directly with VirtualDub2 using File, CaptureMode: Device-UsbVideo(Direct Show); Video-Compression-(NoRecompression:MJPG); Video-SetCustomFormat-UseCustomSize:1280x720 or 1920x1080; Audio-RawCaptureFormat-48000st16b; Audio-Compression-<NoCompression(PCM)>; Capture-CaptureSettings-FrameRate:25
After a small test, you must ensure not to have repeated frames. Some devices cannot sustain 25fps fullHD, but sends (ie: 20fps) and the rest is just repeated. I rather reduce to 1280x720 and have true unique frames instead. (Some TV shows have repeated frames in it, but in that case you can still see slight differences in those dupes).
After that I prefer to compress to H264 CRF21 verySlow / MP3 (or CRF19 for 720p). H265 is not so smaller for this high quality and needs very fast devices or starts dropping frames. H264 has more devices, TVs, etc that supports it.

[Alwyn]

I don't need another device, I can capture at 1080p 25fps using OBS Studio, so I can edit the video without having to convert the frame rate.

So what's your point? Pointing out a hypothetical problem with VDub2 converting from 60 to 25 (which you don't even do), which seems to not exist, based on posts from others?

[rgr]

Well after more experimentation, I discovered that Virtualdub 2 does the conversion between NTSC to PAL (29.97fps or 23.976fps to 25fps) well without stuttering. However, my HDMI capture card records video at MJPEG 1920x1080 at 60fps (when used in VirtualDub original or VirtualDub 2).

What's the source resolution and fps?
Why are you converting from 60 fps to 25 fps anyway?

According to MediaInfo, the native compression format of the HDMI capture card is MJPEG at 59.1Mbit/sec 1920x1080 60fps progressive.

And what is the source?

To get the best quality without stuttering I don't use other compression.

MJPEG is already compression, but I understand that you capture without subsequent recompression.

That's an example that VirtualDub2 cannot properly convert to 25fps and stutters, while the original VirtualDub does so perfectly.

I don't see any difference between VDub and VDub2's behavior; the error must lie somewhere else. But this is still far from optimal.

An alternative is to use Handbrake for the frame rate conversion.

If I remember correctly, in Handbrake you can use the TDecimate(mode=0,cycle=12,cycleR=5) filter to change 60fps to 25fps.

PS: To satisfy your curiosity, I edit the video to cut out unwanted scenes and to create an AVCHD folder. (The .AVI file with AVS video and AC3 audio is imported to Multi-AVCHD to create the folder and then I can burn to DVD with Nero Burning ROM). That's why I want to convert to 25fps, to make the video AVCHD compliant, or DVD compliant if I want to create a standard DVD version.

AVCHD supports 60 frames (interlaced).

[rgr]

I don't need another device, I can capture at 1080p 25fps using OBS Studio, so I can edit the video without having to convert the frame rate.

What fps do you have your HDMI output set to, and what hardware is it?
You're probably not capturing 25 fps with OBS. OBS is capturing 60 fps and then more or less randomly throwing out extra frames. The results won't be very good.

[rgr]

Well after more experimentation, I discovered that Virtualdub 2 does the conversion between NTSC to PAL (29.97fps or 23.976fps to 25fps) well without stuttering. However, my HDMI capture card records video at MJPEG 1920x1080 at 60fps (when used in VirtualDub original or VirtualDub 2).

What's the source resolution and fps?
Why are you converting from 60 fps to 25 fps anyway?

According to MediaInfo, the native compression format of the HDMI capture card is MJPEG at 59.1Mbit/sec 1920x1080 60fps progressive.

And what is the source?

To get the best quality without stuttering I don't use other compression.

MJPEG is already compression, but I understand that you capture without subsequent recompression.

That's an example that VirtualDub2 cannot properly convert to 25fps and stutters, while the original VirtualDub does so perfectly.

I don't see any difference between VDub and VDub2's behavior; the error must lie somewhere else. But this is still far from optimal.

An alternative is to use Handbrake for the frame rate conversion.

If I remember correctly, in Handbrake you can use the TDecimate(mode=0,cycle=12,cycleR=5) filter to change 60fps to 25fps.

PS: To satisfy your curiosity, I edit the video to cut out unwanted scenes and to create an AVCHD folder. (The .AVI file with AVS video and AC3 audio is imported to Multi-AVCHD to create the folder and then I can burn to DVD with Nero Burning ROM). That's why I want to convert to 25fps, to make the video AVCHD compliant, or DVD compliant if I want to create a standard DVD version.

AVCHD supports 60 frames (interlaced).

File Type: avi VirtualDub2 1920x1080 60fps MJPEG AC3 capture test.avi (321.26 MB, 3 views)

Clip is 50fps converted to 60fps by adding dup every 5 frames -- TDecimate(mode=0,cycle=6,cycleR=1)

[spapakons]

I have a cheap HDMI to USB small capture device. But capture directly with VirtualDub2 using File, CaptureMode: Device-UsbVideo(Direct Show); Video-Compression-(NoRecompression:MJPG); Video-SetCustomFormat-UseCustomSize:1280x720 or 1920x1080; Audio-RawCaptureFormat-48000st16b; Audio-Compression-<NoCompression(PCM)>; Capture-CaptureSettings-FrameRate:25
After a small test, you must ensure not to have repeated frames. Some devices cannot sustain 25fps fullHD, but sends (ie: 20fps) and the rest is just repeated. I rather reduce to 1280x720 and have true unique frames instead. (Some TV shows have repeated frames in it, but in that case you can still see slight differences in those dupes).
After that I prefer to compress to H264 CRF21 verySlow / MP3 (or CRF19 for 720p). H265 is not so smaller for this high quality and needs very fast devices or starts dropping frames. H264 has more devices, TVs, etc that supports it.

I have tried manually selecting 25fps in VirtualDub while capturing, but there is no conversion, it just discards the extra frames and since 60 does not divide exactly with 25, this means stuttering. So I capture at native 60fps and convert later. That was before I discovered OBS Studio, I don't capture natively with VirtualDub anymore.

[spapakons]

I don't need another device, I can capture at 1080p 25fps using OBS Studio, so I can edit the video without having to convert the frame rate.

So what's your point? Pointing out a hypothetical problem with VDub2 converting from 60 to 25 (which you don't even do), which seems to not exist, based on posts from others?

My original question was if there is any setting in VirtualDub2 I was missing, so it converts 60fps to 25fps without stuttering. Apparently there isn't so I use the original VirtualDub in the rare cases I capture natively at 60fps. All my captures are now done at 25fps in OBS Studio.