What is the best way to convert a video to WMV?

[video.wmv]

Hello! This is my first post, apologies for any trouble.

See, I am a teacher who has a software installed on Teacher's PC to monitorize the students PCs. It's called NetSupport School, and it is a version running on Windows 7 (both host and nodes, some are 32bit and others 64bit).

This program has 2 features: Show entire desktop to students PCs and Show a specific video to students PCs.

The main difference is that when I click "Show a video", it asks me where the video is located so NetSupport will download the video on each student's PC and it uses a custom video playback.

However, in the Show video tool, it can't be any video: It has to be a WMV video (among other formats, but WMV is what I remember).

I produce the videos myself using Camtasia (I crop some videos of the Internet, so I download them, edit in Camtasia and render in the normal way via MP4).

The version of Camtasia I have is Camtasia 9.

The problem is that the school does not have a full-speed internet connection, and we also has small bandwith since we share it within other places.

So my idea was to use Show video tool. So the process I am using is:

1) Render the video in Camtasia to produce a MP4 video in 720p (sometimes 480p due to file size).
2) Use https://convertio.co/convert-mp4-to-wmv/ to convert the MP4 to WMV video. My settings are:
2 a) "Very low" video quality.
2 b) "Low" audio quality (64 kbps).
2 c) The other config remain the same.
3) Download the output video and reproduce it via Show video tool.

However, the output is always superior to the MP4 video:

Example: 38,2 MB mp4 ---> 59,1 MB wmv

And this is bad, since the output is usually worst (the letters cannot read with "Very low" video quality), and for bigger file sizes, the conversion increases exponentially.

I tried exporting to WMV directly from the Camtasia panel, but it always produces files of ~200 MB, even 1 GB.

I came to this forum asking you if you know ways to produce a WMV that preserves the size and quality.

Any Camtasia configuration, free online conversion tools, etc. are welcomed.

If you have any doubt, please let me know.

Thank you!

[DB83]

Short Answer - No.

The Longer Answer - Video size is calculated by bitrate so to have both your mp4 and wmv the same size you would have to reduce the bitrate of the wmv. Video quality is dependent on both bitrate and the efficiency of the codec (an mp4 typically uses AVC/h264 whereas a WMV uses one of Microsoft's wmv codecs. WMV is not an efficient IMO codec at low bitrates)

[Cornucopia]

To expand on what DB83 said, the best encoder for WMV, in IMO, is Microsoft's own "Windows Media Encoder", which allows one to very clearly tailor their encodes to specific bitrates or profiles, etc, and save presets to reuse for common encoding styles. However, as mentioned, filesize = bitrate * running time ALWAYS, and quality is dependent upon codec (and its own efficiency), the codec's settings, and the bitrate. WMV is more efficient than MPEG1, MPEG2, and slightly better than MPEG4-SP/ASP (aka DivX/Xvid). But standard modern codecs like h.264/AVC and h.265/HEVC and VP9 are much more efficient, so you would be losing efficiency with all else being equal. And of course, if one re-encodes from one lossy codec (like h264 in MP4) to another (like WMV), you will continue to lose something, even with the bitrate being the same (or higher). That is the nature of lossy codecs. You might luck out and have close-to-equivalent quality at basically the same bitrate, but that would just be luck and I wouldn't count on it. Note, though, that succeeding losses are not equal: you lose most on the first encode, and less loss on each subsequent encodes, partly because it is already more redundant that it used to be.

BTW, I suggest you take a look at Veyon software. It is an Open Source alternative to NetSupport School, and may have features that aren't as restrictive (haven't done a 1:1 comparison, but I know that Veyon allows easy monitoring and distributed presentation without having to specially encode anything - it just shows on the other desktops using its own native (prob h264-like) codecs). You would have to spin up your own server(s) for it, but it looks quite promising and straightforward.


Scott

[video.wmv]

Thanks for the quick answer!

Video size is calculated by bitrate so to have both your mp4 and wmv the same size you would have to reduce the bitrate of the wmv.

Ok. Convertio does not provide a parameter to manually change the bitrate, but according to the preview data in Windows 10 explorer, the mp4 video has a bitrate of ~371 kbps and the converted wmv (in "Very low") video has ~264 kbps, lower than the MP4.

I found this tool which provides a manual adjustment of the bitrate, among other configuration: https://video.online-convert.com/convert/mp4-to-wmv Do you suggest me to give it a try?

Video quality is dependent on both bitrate and the efficiency of the codec (an mp4 typically uses AVC/h264 whereas a WMV uses one of Microsoft's wmv codecs. WMV is not an efficient IMO codec at low bitrates)

I don't know nothing about audio nor video codecs, I will post you the codecs I found:

Profile "Camtasia Best Quality and File Size (Recommended)":

Audio encoding mode: Quality VBR
Video encoding mode: Quality VBR

Audio codec: Windows Media Audio 9.2
Audio format: VBR Quality 90, 44 kHz, stereo VBR
Video codec: Windows Media Video 9
Video bit rate: Quality based
Video size: Same as video input
Frame rate: 30 fps
Keyframe: 5 s
Image quality: 90
Buffer size: Default

Profile "Convertio":

Video codecs: Windows Media Video 7 / 8 (WMV1 / WMV2)
Audio codecs: WMA v1 / v2

Profile "video.online-convert":

Video codecs: msmpeg4 / wmv7 / wmv8
Audio codecs: wmav1 / wmav2

As you can see, I have no idea what would be the best configuration.

If someone can help me, I will be grateful.

[ProWo]

From the NetSupport School website:
V15.01 - Update
New features
MP4 video format is now available in show video. It requires MP4 codec to be available in wmplayer.

[DB83]

^^ Well if they wrote that, they are clueless. The is no such thing as 'MP4 codec' since MP4 is a container which can have various audio and video codecs. Maybe they simply meant AVC/h264 which is a popular one for mp4.

@video.wmv Those profiles tell us nothing.


An utility that gives the true bitrate for both video and audio is mediainfo. Choose text mode and copy/paste what you see there for both.


Sure you can try any converter but Scott knows more about these things than I do and if the tool he mentioned is 'the best' then accept that as read.

[ProWo]

^^ Well if they wrote that, they are clueless. The is no such thing as 'MP4 codec' since MP4 is a container which can have various audio and video codecs. Maybe they simply meant AVC/h264 which is a popular one for mp4.

I think so...

[jagabo]

Given the age of WMV codec versions supported they may mean MPEG 4 Part 2 (MS MPEG4, DivX, XviD), not MPEG 4 part 10 (h.264, AVC).

[ProWo]

I have contacted support.
They said that with the installation of the KLite Codec Pack
avc/h264 in mp4 can be played.

[jagabo]

Does that mean every student must download, install, and configure KLite?

[ProWo]

Does that mean every student must download, install, and configure KLite?

It probably has to be installed on every client.
But the standard configuration should work.
This is the limitation with Windows Media Player.

[video.wmv]

Hello, thank you so much for the help!!

From the NetSupport School website:
V15.01 - Update
New features
MP4 video format is now available in show video. It requires MP4 codec to be available in wmplayer.

Sorry but we have an old version of that software. I tried reproducing a MP4 and it throws an error like "file format not supported" on each student PC.

From the page: https://kb.netsupportsoftware.com/knowledge-base/file-formats-supported-by-netsupport-video-player/

It says:

Note: The Microsoft Media Player must be installed on the same machine.

From NetSupport School version 11.00 the following formats are supported:

Windows Media formats: .asf, .avi, .wma, .wmv, .wav
Moving Pictures Experts Group (MPEG): .mpg, .mpeg, .mpe .mp3
Musical Instrument Digital Interface (MIDI): .mid
Apple QuickTime Content: .qt, .mov

Prior to version 11.00 of NetSupport School the Video Player (5.02), when used with Microsoft Media Player 6.4, supported the following formats:

Windows Media formats: .asf, .avi, .wav
Moving Pictures Experts Group (MPEG): .mpg, .mpeg, .mp3
Musical Instrument Digital Interface (MIDI): .mid, .midi, .rmi
Apple QuickTime, Macintosh AIFF Resource: .aiff, .mov
Unix: .au

The NetSupport Video Player does not support the playback of every type of media file currently available but attempts to provide support for the most common types of media files.

Based on your experience, is there any file format from that list that has low bitrate and still have good video quality and low file size? We may consider the following path:

1º) Media (videos, audios) -> 2º) Camtasia -> 3º) Preset "MP4 only (up to 480p)" -> 4º) video.mp4 -> 5º) Online converter -> 6º) video.wmv (or maybe .avi, .asf etc???)

MP4 only (up to 480p) preset information:

MP4 video movie file:

Frame Rate: 30
Keyframe rate: 5
Pause at start: Disabled
Bitrate Mode: Quality Mode
H264 Profile: Baseline
H264 Level: Auto
Video Quality: 60 %
Audio Bitrate: 128 kbps
Audio Format: AAC
Watermark: Disabled
HTML: Disabled
Table of Contents: Disabled
SCORM: Disabled

*Stretch To Fit

To expand on what DB83 said, the best encoder for WMV, in IMO, is Microsoft's own "Windows Media Encoder", which allows one to very clearly tailor their encodes to specific bitrates or profiles, etc, and save presets to reuse for common encoding styles. However, as mentioned, filesize = bitrate * running time ALWAYS, and quality is dependent upon codec (and its own efficiency), the codec's settings, and the bitrate. WMV is more efficient than MPEG1, MPEG2, and slightly better than MPEG4-SP/ASP (aka DivX/Xvid). But standard modern codecs like h.264/AVC and h.265/HEVC and VP9 are much more efficient, so you would be losing efficiency with all else being equal. And of course, if one re-encodes from one lossy codec (like h264 in MP4) to another (like WMV), you will continue to lose something, even with the bitrate being the same (or higher). That is the nature of lossy codecs. You might luck out and have close-to-equivalent quality at basically the same bitrate, but that would just be luck and I wouldn't count on it. Note, though, that succeeding losses are not equal: you lose most on the first encode, and less loss on each subsequent encodes, partly because it is already more redundant that it used to be.

I appreciate your efforts, but I am very noob at file conversions, so I am not sure if I understood you correctly.

Based on your experience, I will try to do the best. If you know a better way to produce .wmv/.avi/etc files (e.g. a shorter way rather than my six steps), or better configuration or any other information you can provide me, I will be grateful.

[ProWo]

I tried reproducing a MP4 and it throws an error like "file format not supported" on each student PC.

You could try to install this
https://www.videohelp.com/download/K-Lite_Codec_Pack_1848_Basic.exe
on one students pc, restart it and retry with the mp4.

[jagabo]

I would suggest downloading the aforementioned Windows Media Encoder and trying WMV7, 8, and 9. The higher the number the better compression you'll get (meaning better image quality at the same size, or a smaller file with the same quality). Figure out which works on all the student's computers. Note that Windows will probably automatically download the correct WMV decoder if it's not already installed.

[video.wmv]

Hello

You could try to install this
https://www.videohelp.com/download/K-Lite_Codec_Pack_1848_Basic.exe
on one students pc, restart it and retry with the mp4.

The students PC are freezed, meaning any installation would be lost after restarting. The IT department of the school is not so helpful (some teachers asked for an upgrading to Win 10 like 4 years ago and they didn't move a hair).

I would suggest downloading the aforementioned Windows Media Encoder and trying WMV7, 8, and 9. The higher the number the better compression you'll get (meaning better image quality at the same size, or a smaller file with the same quality). Figure out which works on all the student's computers. Note that Windows will probably automatically download the correct WMV decoder if it's not already installed.

I have some caution when downloading things from the Internet, but to make sure, can we open a video from a folder in Windows Media Encoder and convert it to wmv?

What you say about "WMV decoder" is correct. I remember in the computer classroom trying to show a WMV/AVI file (can't remember the format) and even it is a recognised file format, the video couldn't be play. I guess the way a converter converts to WMV/AVI is also important so that NetSupport School playback's software can reproduce it into students PC.

I also have another question: I usually export the Camtasia videos into 1080p. Whay do you suggest? Converting it to 480p via Camtasia and using an online converter to convert it to WMV (still 480p), or exporting it into 1080p via Camtasia, and use the online converter to convert to a WMV 480p?

Thank you

[DB83]

Am I missing something here. Have no knowledge of this software but if you can send your desktop to your students' PCs what stops you from playing your video on your own PC and the students view it thus.

[video.wmv]

Hello

Am I missing something here. Have no knowledge of this software but if you can send your desktop to your students' PCs what stops you from playing your video on your own PC and the students view it thus.

I am assuming you are referring to "Show entire destkop" tool.

That is a possibility, but since we are replicating the teacher's screen, then videos that has some kind of movements or have high quality of photography lag a lot (although the video is 480p and has low bitrate), and hence the video experience is bad.

A workaround I found was to reduce the video window size while reproducing it, using a white background and playing the video does not lag, but now we have a small window to watch a video (in addition to have to watch a 480p video, which is worst than a 720p or 1080p video).

That's why I considered this tool called "Show a video" which downloads the video on each student PC and hence lag is not a problem.

Another reason to consider "Show a video" rather than sharing the entire screen, is that when I share the entire screen, I cannot use the teacher's PC, meanwhile using "Show a video" I can minimize, open other windows etc. without disturbing the reproduction.

Of course "Show a video" represents a problem when a video file size is >90 MB, the bandwith is a problem here and I can't wait too long until the video is downloaded on each PC (the PCs are frozen). And when converting to a WMV file takes ~110 MB (in medium quality) I need to reduce the size somehow.

If you mean to reproduce it on a TV, yeah, but some videos are more technical like they need to read from the screen, so the TV is not a good option.

[DB83]

I do not think I mentioned TV anywhere. I was simply refering to PCs or Laptops.

Methinks you have to comprimise between quality, speed of access and general control when the video is playing. You can not have all in your scenario. But I would still like to see the mediainfo reports as I asked for.

[video.wmv]

Hello

Methinks you have to comprimise between quality, speed of access and general control when the video is playing. You can not have all in your scenario.

I know it is a lot :P, but for now I am happy with the results. The conversion process is giving me a headache, because I don't understand anything about conversion and I'm coming to you to help me choose the best configuration.

But I would still like to see the mediainfo reports as I asked for.

I have attached two videos if you want to take the metadata:

1) MP4: It is the exported video from Camtasia, in 1080p (not reduced size):

[Attachment 80951 - Click to enlarge]

2) WMV: It is the converted video from 1) to WMV (reduced to 480p) using the site Convertio:

[Attachment 80952 - Click to enlarge]

I also have attached two images from minute 1:44 and the comparison is abysmal. The MP4 weighs 44,4 MB and the WMV weighs 80,7 MB but the blocks on the right cannot be read.

If you can spot any solution, I will be very grateful.

[Alwyn]

This is a hard ask, as the bitrate for the original MP4 is so low (although there isn't a lot of movement in the video). I've done some tests in my editor (Magix, unfortunately only runs on 64-bit Win 10 or 11) and it seems to me that the online WMV converter isn't doing a good job at all. I've attached a WMV I made with approximately the same bitrate as your MP4. It's not as clear as the original Camtasia MP4 but still way better than the online converter (the MediaInfo bitrates don't make sense for the online WMV).

Given any copy/re-render of a video is better when the original is better, I suggest you create your MP4s at as higher bitrate as possible.

Then you need to find a better WMV converter. There are some free ones in the software section here, but most are very old, although may work on Win 7. I did try to install Windows Media Encoder on my Win 11 machine but got a "Direct X Media 8.1 required" message.

I'm shooting from the hip here, not having used it, but you could try AnyVideoConverter.

[video.wmv]

This is a hard ask, as the bitrate for the original MP4 is so low (although there isn't a lot of movement in the video). I've done some tests in my editor (Magix, unfortunately only runs on 64-bit Win 10 or 11) and it seems to me that the online WMV converter isn't doing a good job at all. I've attached a WMV I made with approximately the same bitrate as your MP4. It's not as clear as the original Camtasia MP4 but still way better than the online converter (the MediaInfo bitrates don't make sense for the online WMV).

Given any copy/re-render of a video is better when the original is better, I suggest you create your MP4s at as higher bitrate as possible.

You want a higher bitrate video? There you have! I have attached the first video that I could not reproduce on the students' PC due to its high quality photography. Thanks to this video I discover that reducing the window size, the video won't lag anymore.

I remember using the Camtasia exporting wizard and having a ~2 GB WMV video file using that source video with about 10x the bitrate of the source video. It frustrated me a lot > : (

Then you need to find a better WMV converter. There are some free ones in the software section here, but most are very old, although may work on Win 7. I did try to install Windows Media Encoder on my Win 11 machine but got a "Direct X Media 8.1 required" message.

I'm shooting from the hip here, not having used it, but you could try AnyVideoConverter.

Oh, thank you for the suggestion. I did not download the Windows Media Encoder yet, but one of the problems could be the incompatibility (I am on a Windows 10 laptop). However, I could use a Virtual Machine to try AnyVideoConverter.

The video I attach is one of the few videos I have with a high bitrate. If you want, I'll try to increase the bitrate of the other videos, they are similar to the one I attached in the first message, they don't have many transitions, they tend to be basic.

Why not trying to convert to AVI? I said WMV but the school software accepts AVI format, too.

[Alwyn]

However, I could use a Virtual Machine to try AnyVideoConverter.

Anyvideoconverter was updated this year so I'm sure it will run on Win 10.

Why not trying to convert to AVI? I said WMV but the school software accepts AVI format, too.

The problem with "AVI" is that there are many video codecs that could be in the AVI container/file extension. You'll need to ask the program's Support people what AVI codecs it will open.

The video I attach is one of the few videos I have with a high bitrate. If you want, I'll try to increase the bitrate of the other videos

Yes, it isn't a valid comparison to use two different videos, so if you could post a higher-bitrate version of the Tinkercard video, that would be better.

For what it's worth, I've attached a WMV from your Cables video. You can see that with a dynamic video with movement, the quality is not good at such a low bitrate. Your static videos of the computer circuitry will come out better.

[jagabo]

See if you can play this mp4 file with h.264 video and aac audio.

[DB83]

As Alwyn already mentioned, the declared bitrates for the .wmv do no make sense. I'll show you what I mean by this pic that compares both. If, indeed, the declared results were true, the .wmv would be smaller @ 24mb. Mediainfo only reads some info which may have been written to the video by the converter and has come to the wrong conclusion. The actual avg. bitrate for the .wmv is over 4 times what is declared including audio and is actually shown in the higher part of the report.

Complete name : G:\Downloads\4-2-3.-Tutorial-Tinkercad-Parpadeo-LED-Parte-2.wmv
Format : Windows Media
File size : 80.7 MiB
Duration : 12 min 11 s
Overall bit rate : 926 kb/s
Maximum Overall bit rate : 264 kb/s
Encoded date : UTC 1970-01-01 00:00:00.000
major_brand : mp42
minor_version : 0
compatible_brands : isommp42
WM/EncodingSettings : Lavf58.76.100

[video.wmv]

Hello all, thank you for your kind support, I am trying to learn from your answers as much as I can.

The problem with "AVI" is that there are many video codecs that could be in the AVI container/file extension. You'll need to ask the program's Support people what AVI codecs it will open.

Ok, I will post any answer they provide me.

For what it's worth, I've attached a WMV from your Cables video. You can see that with a dynamic video with movement, the quality is not good at such a low bitrate. Your static videos of the computer circuitry will come out better.

Thank you. I think it is good, however I don't think you have to render the videos for me, I need to figure out the best way to do the conversion myself. I appreciate the video, though!

See if you can play this mp4 file with h.264 video and aac audio.

Yes but it is 15 fps. The videos I want should be > 24 fps because they tend to be more realistic.

In the past I used to export the videos at 60 fps, although the sources were not, I liked that they have that frame rate. Nowadays, experience tells me that the software I use at school does not cope well with 60 fps videos, so I export them at 30 fps. Although the monitors in the school are @ 60 fps.

As Alwyn already mentioned, the declared bitrates for the .wmv do no make sense. I'll show you what I mean by this pic that compares both. If, indeed, the declared results were true, the .wmv would be smaller @ 24mb. Mediainfo only reads some info which may have been written to the video by the converter and has come to the wrong conclusion. The actual avg. bitrate for the .wmv is over 4 times what is declared including audio and is actually shown in the higher part of the report.

Complete name : G:\Downloads\4-2-3.-Tutorial-Tinkercad-Parpadeo-LED-Parte-2.wmv
Format : Windows Media
File size : 80.7 MiB
Duration : 12 min 11 s
Overall bit rate : 926 kb/s
Maximum Overall bit rate : 264 kb/s
Encoded date : UTC 1970-01-01 00:00:00.000
major_brand : mp42
minor_version : 0
compatible_brands : isommp42
WM/EncodingSettings : Lavf58.76.100

This is very interesting. Thank you for the analysis!!

So the conclusion is that Convertio is not a good WMV converter?

There is something that is not clear to me from your analysis: In the image you posted, the data from the right (the one that analyze .wmv) says:

Duration : 12 min 11 s (ok)
Bit rate : 200 kb/s
Width : ......

It says 200 kb/s, shouldn't be more from what you say?

It also baffles me that "Overall bit rate" is 926 kb/s but the "Maximum Overall bit rate" is 264 kb/s. Why the "maximum" is far below the "overall"? Shouldn't "maximum" be higher than the "overall"? Like "Maximum Overall bit rate" > "Overall bit rate", not <

Also @DB83, what do you suggest to have a true .wmv file, without fake data? If possible, I would like to have an online converter, not a program that has to be installed.

Sorry for the silly questions, I am new to this topic.

[DB83]

Like I said, the 200+64 = 264 is the misleading info wheareas the 926, so higher than you mp4, is more accurate and hence the larger sized video. And your mp4 is 'pushing it' and only 'works' due to the lack of movement.

I took a quick look at Windows Media Encoder (WME) (and if this has also been covered then I apologise for the duplication). This is a legacy product. No longer available from MS but can be downloaded from elsewhere - might not even work for Win10 and beyond (works for my antiquated Win7 system). And TBH WMV is also a legacy format. But WME only accepts input from a narrow range of formats. MP4 is NOT one of these since it is not, I guess, one of MS's 'child's'. And I further guess that MS's interpretation of 'AVI' is equally narrow.


Later today I might look at another 'one-click' converter. But I do not hold out any hope for it.

[Alwyn]

Thank you. I think it is good, however I don't think you have to render the videos for me, I need to figure out the best way to do the conversion myself. I appreciate the video, though!

Don't worry, I wasn't intending to. I was merely trying to show you what is possible (or not) with WMV compared to MP4 (using the H264 codec).

[video.wmv]

Like I said, the 200+64 = 264 is the misleading info wheareas the 926, so higher than you mp4, is more accurate and hence the larger sized video. And your mp4 is 'pushing it' and only 'works' due to the lack of movement.

I don't know what "And your mp4 is 'pushing it' and only 'works' due to the lack of movement" mean. I understand that the bitrate number can vary based on the movement, that's why is not constant over time.

I took a quick look at Windows Media Encoder (WME) (and if this has also been covered then I apologise for the duplication). This is a legacy product. No longer available from MS but can be downloaded from elsewhere - might not even work for Win10 and beyond (works for my antiquated Win7 system). And TBH WMV is also a legacy format. But WME only accepts input from a narrow range of formats. MP4 is NOT one of these since it is not, I guess, one of MS's 'child's'. And I further guess that MS's interpretation of 'AVI' is equally narrow.

I agree. The .wmv being a propietary software is a good point to highlight, that could explain why most of the converters do not do their work properly.

Later today I might look at another 'one-click' converter. But I do not hold out any hope for it.

Thank you! It can be a 'one-click' converter or a more-difficult-to-understand one. At this point I don't care, if you can help me configure most of the parameters of a more advanced converter correctly, I think there would be no problems.

[jagabo]

See if you can play this mp4 file with h.264 video and aac audio.

Yes but it is 15 fps.

I used 15 fps to reduce the bitrate requirement. That particular video was mostly still images so it doesn't really need 30 fps.

The videos I want should be > 24 fps because they tend to be more realistic.

Then you should have started with such a video. (Yes, I see you posted one later.)

But the main point of this test was to see if you could stream an mp4 file with h.264 video and aac audio to your client computers. Was it possible?

It says 200 kb/s, shouldn't be more from what you say?

Tools that report bitrate are often wrong. That's what DB83 was pointing out.

[DB83]

So I fired up the 'one-click' converter that I have and did a few experiments. Essentially, the video size was dependent on the frame size although that should NOT be the case - size = length * frame-rate although the frame rate did change according to the frame size so then the equation is true.

And as you found out, if the frame size is too small you can not read the text on the screen. In this program, not all frame sizes are covered so the smallest that gave acceptable results was 1280*720 which resulted in a video of 72mb. I guess that is too large for the reasons you have already stated.


But you should try Jagabo's sample. It is possible that the software requires upgrade to the latest version and then you may even be able to use your original file.