Cuts only DV AVI video editing recommendations

[johnmeyer]

A friend just digitized 60+ hours of video using her DV camcorder as the encoder. She needs to do simple cuts-only editing to trim the head & tail, and remove bad footage from these tapes. She then needs to encode the result to h.264 MP4 for distribution to relatives. She is using a Windows 11 computer.

I am thinking of simply recommending Virtualdub, but am wondering if any of you have better recommendations. She is very talented and technical, so she can easily learn anything, but I want to avoid subjecting her to multiple hours of learning just to be able to do simple stuff.

Thanks in advance for any recommendations.

[The_Doman]

Virtualdub is also the tool i use for trimming/cutting my DV files before encoding them to other formats.
Sometimes also for joining when capturing in segments.

[Barrythecrab]

Avidemux.

[johnmeyer]

Thanks for the two recommendations. I'm leaning towards the VD which has MP4 encoding built in. However, I'm trying to figure out the best workflow for her. If she has lots of storage space it would be easiest to trim and create new AVI files. No compression loss. I'd then have her fire up Handbrake and drop all the trimmed DV AVI files onto that and batch encode (and probably deinterlace as well). I always found the batch encoding in VD to be difficult, and I also don't know if the h.264 MP4 encoding in VD is as good as Handbrake.

I haven't used AVIDemux in ages. I'll fire that up and see if it might do the trick.

[Alwyn]

If she's nerdy, I'd suggest a cheap NLE such a Magix Movie Studio (not the old Vegas MS). I suspect that, when she gets into it, straight cuts with no titles or anything like that will not cut it. She'll want more. Going the simple Magix route gives her extras such as titles, fades, basic colour correction, easy cropping to 16:9 and batch encoding, as well as a capable integrated DVD/BD authoring and burning function. It also has a multi-movie feature where you can split a large file into separate movies in the same project and batch-export each as a separate file.

FYI, the x264 plugin for VDub2 was updated a couple of days ago. See here:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/414223-VirtualDub2-Fork-By-v0lt#post2740481

You can't easily batch export out of AVIDemux.

For simple chopping up and trimming of DV-AVIs, Scenalyzer is my Go-To.

[_Al_]

I'd suggest a cheap NLE such a Magix Movie Studio

I would suggest the same, definitely, 60 hours/tapes, to spend $50 seems adequate, reasonable.

[johnmeyer]

I am a die-hard Vegas user, and started down that road almost a quarter century ago with Sonic Foundry's Videofactory, the forerunner of Movie Studio. I eventually upgraded to Vegas Pro, and got very involved in that community, with over 4,000 posts in the old Vegas forum.

After the Magix acquisition, I quit upgrading (I do less video editing these days). I didn't realize that the Magix version of MS had changed compared to what Sonic Foundry/Sony were selling. I'll definitely look into it because, as you both say, since she is very technical and amazingly capable, she may want more.

Thanks!

[rgr]

A friend just digitized 60+ hours of video using her DV camcorder as the encoder. She needs to do simple cuts-only editing to trim the head & tail, and remove bad footage from these tapes. She then needs to encode the result to h.264 MP4 for distribution to relatives. She is using a Windows 11 computer.

I am thinking of simply recommending Virtualdub, but am wondering if any of you have better recommendations. She is very talented and technical, so she can easily learn anything, but I want to avoid subjecting her to multiple hours of learning just to be able to do simple stuff.

Thanks in advance for any recommendations.

So it has AVI files from the camera?

The best way is obvious:
1. install AviSynth and the QTGMC plugin and ffms2 (or better LibavSource)

There are two ways:
2a) write an AviSynth script that will recode all avi files to e.g. ProRes format and then edit in Vegas and save in H264
2b) write an AviSynth script for each file, but directly edit in VirtualDub and save in H264

Script:

ffms2("input.avi",atrack=-1)
echo convertBits(10) *3
QTGMC(preset="slower",TR2=3)
ApplyGradationCurves(lumaPoints="16,0,254,255") *1
convertBits(8,dither=-1) *2
Prefetch

*1 - video from miniDV is saved in the range 16-254, so you need to change it to 0-255 for full range ouput (or 16-235 for limited range)
*2 - remove line if you save in ProRes
*3 - you can increase the precision to 16 bits, but the difference is minimal

[_Al_]

Creating of intermediate files, changing levels for DVavi before loading it to Vegas does not make sense.
NLE can export DVavi again, after editing, no loss. Back then, we edited a footage (just simple cuts, no cross-dissolves, color fixes, subtitles, etc.)and could export it losslessly into DVavi again, storing it as masters. Those were the days.

[rgr]

Creating of intermediate files, changing levels for DVavi before loading it to Vegas does not make sense.

Of course it makes sense. This is even the only sensible solution if you want to properly (high quality) deinterlace DV-avi. Vegas basically can't do that.

[_Al_]

If you do what she does and 60 tapes, it is a nonsense. I understand for nowadays progressive project of different resolution, sure. Dealing with some Dvavi files. I had set up dvavi helper and other batch files, where these things were automatized, but even for a practical reasons, it might be better to just simple edit DVavi, export it and only then forge it to something else.

[pchan]

Can give LosslessCut a try. There is no audio for AVI preview but the cut segment audio is OK.
It's fast cut and join utilities.

[rgr]

If you do what she does and 60 tapes, it is a nonsense. I understand for nowadays progressive project of different resolution, sure. Dealing with some Dvavi files. I had set up dvavi helper and other batch files, where these things were automatized, but even for a practical reasons, it might be better to just simple edit DVavi, export it and only then forge it to something else.

What's the problem? The conversion is automatic, the only problem is disk space. This is ZERO time comparing to 60 hours of editing, and the quality is dramatically better. It is absurd to give up on it.

[_Al_]

rgr- I think someone needs more coffee today, and it is not me, I already had two cups

hint: one conversion vs. two conversions

[rgr]

rgr- I think someone needs more coffee today, and it is not me, I already had two cups

hint: one conversion vs. two conversions

1. Using only Virtualdub for editing, there will be one conversion.

2. Conversion via Prores is practically lossless, especially since ultimately it will be yuv420 (purists can also save in a lossless format).

Drink more coffee.

[_Al_]

I don't need to obviously. You like it complicated, for no reason obviously and involve to encode unnecessarily.

VD exports DV out losslessly into a DV codec if you want to btw, it is basically just copying frames, very fast. I would look into a manual instead of recommending batches for prores and also disregarding having DVavi masters (without crap parts in it) for future repairs. ai does wonders and it will be better. Intermediate files could be very handy, sometimes almost necessary, but not in this case. You obviously never edited DVavi in its prime, you have no idea what that would be to create unnecessary intermediates all the time like op.
Also imagine even capturing DV into a clips, that is a such tremendous help to have clips already cut by scenes. Just deleting a crappy scenes in a seconds. That one you totally disregard as well (besides de interlacing each clip for Vegas - that would be even more stupid in our case.

[johnmeyer]

1. Using only Virtualdub for editing, there will be one conversion.

2. Conversion via Prores is practically lossless, especially since ultimately it will be yuv420 (purists can also save in a lossless format).

Drink more coffee.

#1 is not correct. In VirtualDub if you go to the Video menu and select "Direct Stream Copy," then when editing DV AVI files, there is no re-encoding and the operation is nothing more than a bit-for-bit file copy, but with the sections you have edited being removed. This is no conversion (i.e., rendering or encoding). This is possible because every frame in DV is compressed without any reference to adjacent frames.

For long-GOP codecs, like H.264 or MPEG-2 you can still do lossless cutting using a program like VideoRedo, as long as you cut on GOP boundaries. That program also lets you cut on arbitrary frames, and then only re-encodes a few frames around the cut. VideoRedo might have been a viable program for my friend, but I could never get my mind around their UI, and find that doing even simple cuts is a chore.

As for re-encoding into ProRes, I am a big fan of digital intermediates. I used Cineform for many years and it was wonderful for certain workflows. However, this is not a situation where a digital intermediate is needed or useful.

[rgr]

1. Using only Virtualdub for editing, there will be one conversion.

2. Conversion via Prores is practically lossless, especially since ultimately it will be yuv420 (purists can also save in a lossless format).

Drink more coffee.

#1 is not correct. In VirtualDub if you go to the Video menu and select "Direct Stream Copy," then when editing DV AVI files, there is no re-encoding and the operation is nothing more than a bit-for-bit file copy, but with the sections you have edited being removed. This is no conversion (i.e., rendering or encoding). This is possible because every frame in DV is compressed without any reference to adjacent frames.

You want to save in H264, so why DirectCopy?
However, VDub seems to preserve the edit if you use Export->Stream Copy (but I've never checked). If that works, you can of course do it in reverse order -- first cut, then compress to H264. But I don't trust VirtualDub that much

For long-GOP codecs, like H.264 or MPEG-2 you can still do lossless cutting using a program like VideoRedo, as long as you cut on GOP boundaries.

For DV material this is not the case -- each frame is an I-frame.

That program also lets you cut on arbitrary frames, and then only re-encodes a few frames around the cut. VideoRedo might have been a viable program for my friend, but I could never get my mind around their UI, and find that doing even simple cuts is a chore.

As for re-encoding into ProRes, I am a big fan of digital intermediates. I used Cineform for many years and it was wonderful for certain workflows. However, this is not a situation where a digital intermediate is needed or useful.

It depends on whether you want to do a good deinterlace (and high quality video) and mount in Vegas or do everything in one go in VirtualDub.
Using Avisynth+VirtualDub has the advantage that you can combine all files (or several DV files) into one on-the-fly. Although editing 60h at once is hardcore However, you then only have one file that you can edit as you wish (whether in VD or Vegas).

[johnmeyer]

You want to save in H264, so why DirectCopy?

It is all about workflow. Obviously I want to help my friend achieve the highest-quality result possible, but I also want to help create a process which minimizes the time she must spend sitting in front of a computer. The three essential things she must do are: edit; deinterlace; and then encode to h.264. AVISynth and QTGMC can obviously do fantastic deinterlacing, but installing and using AVISynth is way beyond her abilities. I assume that Magix MovieStudio probably has deinterlacing built in and that it would be sufficiently decent for her purposes. However, unlike Vegas Pro, I don't think there are any batch capabilities built in and therefore she would have to stop editing after finishing one tape, and wait for half an hour while that tape renders. That is a terrible workflow. If instead she can just save the AVI file, that takes maybe a minute or two (whatever it takes to copy 13 GB, which is the size of an hour of DV). She can then resume editing. All the edited DV AVI files can then be deinterlaced and rendered by Handbrake, using its excellent batch mode.

_AI_'s suggestion understand this and are what I will be suggesting to her.

[Cornucopia]

@rgr, even doing file copy, 60+ hours at 13GB/Hour (std DV-AVI rate) is 780GB, which even with a fast M2 ssd still takes many minutes. Since you were wanting ProRes or a Lossless intermediate, we're talking more like double or triple that size, with conversion time thrown in. That is NOT insignificant.
Any deint will require a conversion, but since DV is already edit-ready, best to leave it as it is, edit it, then do the other processes. Plus, then you won't be deinterlacing stuff that is going to be thrown out anyway.


Scott

[rgr]

You want to save in H264, so why DirectCopy?

It is all about workflow. Obviously I want to help my friend achieve the highest-quality result possible, but I also want to help create a process which minimizes the time she must spend sitting in front of a computer. The three essential things she must do are: edit; deinterlace; and then encode to h.264. AVISynth and QTGMC can obviously do fantastic deinterlacing, but installing and using AVISynth is way beyond her abilities.

Apparently I misunderstood "She is very talented and technical, so she can easily learn anything"

I assume that Magix MovieStudio probably has deinterlacing built in and that it would be sufficiently decent for her purposes. However, unlike Vegas Pro, I don't think there are any batch capabilities built in and therefore she would have to stop editing after finishing one tape, and wait for half an hour while that tape renders.

I don't know about Movie Studio, but in Vegas you can run a second instance and edit another video.

That is a terrible workflow. If instead she can just save the AVI file, that takes maybe a minute or two (whatever it takes to copy 13 GB, which is the size of an hour of DV). She can then resume editing. All the edited DV AVI files can then be deinterlaced and rendered by Handbrake, using its excellent batch mode.

Right. I never considered Handbrake because I don't use it. And I don't really know its capabilities. I think you can use QTGMC in it, so just cut the video in native DV format and render it using QTGMC in HandBrake (but probably not in Movie Studio).

[rgr]

@rgr, even doing file copy, 60+ hours at 13GB/Hour (std DV-AVI rate) is 780GB, which even with a fast M2 ssd still takes many minutes. Since you were wanting ProRes or a Lossless intermediate, we're talking more like double or triple that size, with conversion time thrown in. That is NOT insignificant.

Considering the editing time -- it doesn't matter.
However, he wants to cut the video first anyway, so he won't save that time.

[_Al_]

... nonchalantly disregarding any point that makes sense, telling a folks, that spend a decade with that format, how to do it

... render in second instance, really?

I don't think Handbrake can use QTGMC.
I think I'm overdue to make DVavi helper, but part deux, using GUI, not batch scripts to convert avis to (or any format I guess) to mp4 bob deinterlacing using QTGMC. That original useds Avisynth 32bit based and all QTGMC dlls included. It is outdated, because everyone uses 64bit now, not posting link here.
It was a dream working with DV avi back then.

[johnmeyer]

It was a dream working with DV avi back then.

Ain't that the truth!

It still is a dream to work with which is why I still recommend that newbies, like my friend, do their analog videotape capture using a DV camcorder. You just hook up your camcorder (as a passthrough), install Scenalyzer, connect the Firewire cable, and start capturing. No dropped frames; no procamp to screw up; no issues with levels, etc.

It just works.

By comparison, when you read these forums (and doom9.org) the "better" capture chain almost always stops newbies dead in their tracks, and they almost always have dropped frames, level problems, and more.

Yes, NTSC DV does have a lousy colorspace, and the DCT compression does have artifacts that some people find more objectionable than artifacts in more modern codecs. However, when you are capturing consumer video from the 1980s and 1990s, the colorspace issues hardly matter, and the artifacts in VHS, Beta, or 8mm video are so large as to overwhelm the artifacts created by DCT compression.

I still keep trying to find the time to do a comparison between DV capture and a "better" capture chain. Several years ago I was gifted a professional analog capture system by a special effect studio in "Hollywood." Just prior to that I had my prosumer Panasonic VCR refurbished. I want to do tests using both a good commercial VHS tape as well as Criterion laserdiscs, capturing each source, first using DV, and then using my "ultimate" (there is, of course, no such thing) capture system, and then post the results. There darn well ought to be a noticeable difference, but the question is, will it be enough to matter? By that I mean, would an ordinary person, not accustomed to zooming in on diagonal lines, or looking for how reds get displayed, notice a difference?

Someone must have done something like this, but if they have, I've never seen it.

[rgr]

... nonchalantly disregarding any point that makes sense, telling a folks, that spend a decade with that format, how to do it

It's not a format that takes decades to learn. Unless it's taken someone that long

... render in second instance, really?

So what's the problem? Multitasking wasn't born yesterday.

I don't think Handbrake can use QTGMC.

Pity.

[rgr]

By comparison, when you read these forums (and doom9.org) the "better" capture chain almost always stops newbies dead in their tracks, and they almost always have dropped frames, level problems, and more.

All because of the desire to improve quality.
There is nothing stopping you from doing everything the old way -- capturing using any grabber for $5 (mjpeg) and editing and rendering in VirtualDub.
If only QTGMC type filters were available in VDub...

And you can always rip it to DVD

I still keep trying to find the time to do a comparison between DV capture and a "better" capture chain.

There won't be a dramatic difference. Nowadays, you can get more with post-processing.

[_Al_]

It's not a format that takes decades to learn. Unless it's taken someone that long

What's that? Is that something Kamala Harris said?

[_Al_]

johnmeyer - I do not capture analog sources much at all, not lately at all, 20 years, heck I even forgot how I did it. I do not fix VHS tapes, cannot elaborate at all how bad it is or not comparing VHS analog capture to whatever vs. to DVavi. Mostly was working with Sony VX2000, DV avi footage.

[Alwyn]

Magix Movie Studio has excellent batching. For each project, you can establish multiple movies, with their own timelines, copying and pasting between each movie if need be.

Batch processing allows export of each movie as a file, or you can even export each "chapter" (user-set points in a movie) as a separate file.

I recently did a project which contained 30 ex-DV movies, 38 hours total, exported the lot in the one process overnight to MP4.

If you've got a decent GPU, Magix Movie Studio will pump out MP4s at ~1200% of realtime.

A short test I did of DV vs Analogue capture:

https://youtu.be/RyOdt0KM3K4

Note: The Videohelp link to "Movie Studio" is incorrect: it links to Vegas MS, which is no longer in production.

[johnmeyer]

Alwyn,

That is really useful information. I am a long-time (close to 25 years) Vegas Pro user, but haven't updated since Magix bought the product from Sony. Even when I was posting every day in the Sonic/Sony forum, I didn't follow VideoFactory/MovieStudio very closely. I did not know that it had any batch capabilities. Given what you say, if it can do some sort of reasonable deinterlacing, Movie Studio may very well be the best option.