MPC-HC - can it be configured to play DVDs at native (or double) NTSC fps?

[Alex_ander]

I have a problem with testing a custom NTSC DVD subs (earlier tested in SubtitleEdit with joined VOBs - they were OK). The MPC-HC (in versions 1.7 & latest 2.2) doesn't use the 1000/1001 factor and so accelerates the NTSC video+audio, but doesn't modify DVD subtitles timing at that. The subs (no selection from menu) gradually go out of sync: by the end of an hour get delayed like for 3-4 seconds. That's if playback starts as usual, with VIDEO_TS.ifo; in case of VTS_01_0.ifo, the video+audio length (both are still in sync) corresponds to native NTSC timing (the subs are out or reach at that). The MPC-BE modification shows incorrect video timing in both cases. Is there a workaround?

[jagabo]

I have no A/V sync problems playing NTSC DVD VIDEO_TS folders with MPCHC. Whether I start with the VIDEO_TS.IFO or the VTS_0x_1.IFO.

[Alex_ander]

It's not an A/V sync problem (they are always in sync), only internal DVD subs get progressively delayed because they keep their timings while A/V are accelerated by the player (to 30,000 or 60,000 fps) and get shorter. The fps and video length are modified so in all NTSC DVDs I tested (independently of subs presence), by the number 1000/1001.

[Cornucopia]

Subs don't get delayed if you play them at the proper speed.


Scott

[jagabo]

It's not an A/V sync problem (they are always in sync), only internal DVD subs get progressively delayed because they keep their timings while A/V are accelerated by the player (to 30,000 or 60,000 fps) and get shorter. The fps and video length are modified so in all NTSC DVDs I tested (independently of subs presence), by the number 1000/1001.

I have no sync problem with subs either. I tested with some movie DVDs ripped to VIDEO_TS folders -- open the VIDEO_TS.IFO file, navigate through the menu to start playing the movie. After100 minutes everything was still in sync. Something may be wrong with the way you're authoring your DVDs.

[Alex_ander]

Thanks, jagabo, for your info. Just found a trusted NTSC DVD for testing: despite it shows two different length values in MPC (it's about 87 mins and is 5 sec shorter if playback starts from VIDEO_TS.ifo) the subs seem to get properly adjusted for 30.0 fps playback, even if they are turned on in MPC-HC menu while playing.
I used Muxman 1.4.4 for authoring (no menu, it's a part for further building a disc in DVDRemake as I always do). The only thing I can suspect in my process are sup files generated by SubtitleCreator 2.3RC1 (is it a beta?) from srt's, speed-tested against a .ts A/V file. Can the problem come from some wrong sups metadata?

[jagabo]

Why are you getting 30 fps playback? Looking at the MPC Video Renderer filter while playing it shows the frame rate bouncing around 23.976, 29.97, or 59.94, depending on the DVD.

[Alex_ander]

The player shows (below the video frame) shorter main title playback time, than it is in case of 29,97 fps. It's the same time value, as shown e.g. in PGCEdit's PGC info list (it explicitly says that value is for 30 fps), while in case the VOB set is joined to .ts or played back from VTS_0x_0.ifo, its playback time is longer (for 29,97 fps), like 5 seconds longer for 90 mins full playback time. This difference is shown by MPC for any NTSC DVD.

[Cornucopia]

*ALL* NTSC DVDs play at 29.97, or 23.976 (with flags) - NO EXCEPTIONS (there is no other option in the spec for NTSC, and similarly only 25fps for PAL). Regardless of what you think it is supposed to be telling you, if an app is saying it is running at 30fps, or supposed to be running at 30fps, that is incorrect, and that is probably why you are encountering this.

And YES, 29.97 does run ~5seconds longer. It is supposed to (compared to 30fps using the same # of frames, given ~90minutes). Don't play it at 30, play it at 29.97 - most systems SHOULD be able to give you this option (including sometimes even putting monitor to 59.94Hz refresh vs 60Hz).

Scott

[jagabo]

Which video renderer are you using? Try a different one? Try turning on/off hardware decoding?

[Skiller]

Does the problem occur if you use other players, such als VLC-player (which is otherwise a bad choice for playing DVD structures, but for this test it's sufficient)?

Currently my bet is on SubtitleCreator messing up the time codes.

[Alex_ander]

Which video renderer are you using? Try a different one? Try turning on/off hardware decoding?

I tried to use Sync Renderer instead of 'Enhanced...' one (the others don't support subs) and to change its setting from the dedicated tab, also tried to reset to defaults - the general behaviour (playback time) remained the same.

Does the problem occur if you use other players, such als VLC-player (which is otherwise a bad choice for playing DVD structures, but for this test it's sufficient)?

Currently my bet is on SubtitleCreator messing up the time codes.

The subs problem in my project is the same with VLC, MPC-BE and DVDFab Player 6. Also, they all show the shorter playback time (which is for 30 fps) for other NTSC DVDs, incl. commercial ones (on 2 different PCs, Win10/11). The MPC-HC is the only one showing two different playback time values. The internal player of SubtitleEdit (used for .srt) shows the longer (29.97) playback time for .ts file from joined VOBs.

I'll try out an older, hopefully stable version 2.2 of SubtitleCreator today - the program itself is a widely recommended one.

BTW, DVDFab Player 6 I tested in the process, appeared to have an extremely useful feature for testing menus. It allows for proper button navigation with arrow keys (+ Enter for activation), while MPC only calls menus (button navigation is with mouse only) and VLC only goes through button numbers and ignores numbers of adjacent buttons, set at authoring. That DVDFab also plays BD folders, with full menu functionality.

[Skiller]

I don't know about the play time shown being wrong, but if the subtitles go out of sync with three different players, the issue is not the players, it's in the authored DVD structure.

I'll try out an older, hopefully stable version 2.2 of SubtitleCreator today - the program itself is a widely recommended one.

Who recommends it? I gave up on SubtitleCreator because it had too many issues and bugs when I tried using it. I certainly would not recommend it. For the sake of simplicity, I would recommend using Subtitle Edit instead – at least as a test.

[Alex_ander]

I don't know about the play time shown being wrong, but if the subtitles go out of sync with three different players, the issue is not the players, it's in the authored DVD structure.

Yes, I figured this out yesterday after jagabo's post and testing a subtitled NTSC DVD I found on my shelf.

Who recommends it?

E.g. this old tutorial on VideoHelp: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/277950-How-to-add-new-subtitles-to-an-existing-DVD, with additions by manono and others.

I gave up on SubtitleCreator because it had too many issues and bugs when I tried using it. I certainly would not recommend it. For the sake of simplicity, I would recommend using SubtitleCreator because it had too many issues and bugs when I tried using it. I certainly would not recommend it. For the sake of simplicity, I would recommend using Subtitle Edit instead – at least as a test.

I already used Subtitle Edit for writing two srt's. SubtitleCreator was only needed to convert them to .sup for direct muxing with video/audio in Muxman. Its 2.3RC1 version, as it appeared, doesn't work for NTSC, while version 2.2 worked for me - now the sups are in sync. Yes, it keeps some bugs, not related to the conversion function I needed, like showing 'open file' error message until you set proper character encoding table, doesn't remember settings at closing the program, etc.
Anyway, the problem is solved now. Thanks to you and the other contributors who helped me to figure the things out.

[Skiller]

Great.
Just note that Subtitle Edit is able to export SUP.

"File" -> "Export" -> "Blu-ray sup" (ignore the word Blu-ray, it does not matter, but change resolution to NTSC or PAL)

[Alex_ander]

Oh, it even gets the frame size from the internal player! Didn't know BD sups are similar to those on DVD, so ignored that option due to its name. I'll try it later, thanks again

[Alex_ander]

P.S. Tried it recently - BD sups are actually different from DVD sups (which refer to external CLUT etc.) even file size is about 3 times larger, and Muxman can't recognize them. To generate sups in future, I'll try Txt2Sup instead, to replace SubtitleCreator with its visible and hidden bugs (one more found in 2.2: trying to change text color from white to grey results in opaque text BG in exported sup, and that's not even shown in the preview) and limitations (it can't use system installed fonts).