What is the modern solution for backing up MinDV tapes?

[Videogamer555]

MiniDV tapes are used in camcorders that have a Firewire output. This is because the MiniDV tapes actually store digital data like a computer disk, and the Firewire output is a digital connection. Unfortunately no modern computers have Firewire ports (or at least none that I can find on Google searches). One solution people seem to use is putting the tape in their camcorder and playing it back over an analog video cable into a USB video capture dongle. This is a lossy conversion though, due to first converting it to analog and then back to digital. Any analog signal is a lossy medium for sending data. So that's unacceptable for me.

I was wondering if anybody has yet made a USB device that is designed for the specific purpose of backing up MiniDV tapes. If such a device existed it would work simply be a small device with a slot to put the MiniDV tape, and a USB cable going out the back. You would then be able to just push the play button (either a physical button on the device, or an on-screen button in the computer software that operates the device from the PC side) and it would send the DV video stream from the tape over the USB cable, and you would use software on the PC side to record the stream into a file (either a raw DV stream file with the file extension .dv, or an AVI file as the container with the file extension .avi).

Yes, I know that when it comes down to the technical details that the Firewire connection is a stream oriented connection, while the USB connection is a packet oriented connection. This is probably why MinDV camcorders only output the DV stream over Firewire cable, while the USB cable is only used to access the content of the memory card (which usually contains ultra-low quality video files with a resolution no larger than 320x240). However, if a decicated USB device was built for the specific task of backing up people's MinDV tapes, a workaround could easily be done. The electronics in the device could packetize the DV stream from the tape (chop it up into packets) and send those over the USB protocol. Then on the PC side, all you'd need would be a driver and software for operating this MinDV backup tool.

Unfortunately, I can't find such a USB based MiniDV tape backup tool. Do you know if any such tool was ever made? If so, what's it called, and where can I buy one?

[Videogamer555]

Wait. I just realized this might be the wrong section of the forum for this topic. I'm gonna repost it over in the Media section.

[dellsam34]

The tool you are looking for exists and has existed for many years, it's called a DV/miniDV camcorder or DV/miniDV deck. Some camcorders can stream DV signal over USB, Also Pinnacle made some devices that can emulate firewire over a USB connection, However these devices are finicky with modern OS's, Work best with Win 7 and earlier, it can be made to work with a little bit of tweaking. Another solution if you have a modern computer with Thunderbolt, Apple sells adapters that can go from firewire to thunderbolt and /or into a USB-C socket. What's your hardware so we can guide you better?

[Videogamer555]

The tool you are looking for exists and has existed for many years, it's called a DV/miniDV camcorder or DV/miniDV deck. Some camcorders can stream DV signal over USB, Also Pinnacle made some devices that can emulate firewire over a USB connection, However these devices are finicky with modern OS's, Work best with Win 7 and earlier, it can be made to work with a little bit of tweaking. Another solution if you have a modern computer with Thunderbolt, Apple sells adapters that can go from firewire to thunderbolt and /or into a USB-C socket. What's your hardware so we can guide you better?

Which camcorders or decks actually allow streaming a DV signal over USB? And are there any Windows 10 or Windows 11 drivers for such camcorders or decks?

Yes, I know Apple has firewire-to-thunderbolt2 and thunderbolt2-to-thunderbolt3 adapters (thunderbolt2 is only available on Macs, and thunderbolt3 looks like USB-C but with also additional capabilities and is available on any modern Windows PC). These 2 adapters need to be chained together, but there's a problem. It appears that Apple may have discontinued the firewire-to-thunderbolt2 adapter. I can't find it at any of the places that used to sell it. I can only find them now on eBay for like 3 or 4 times the price I would have paid to get them from Apple. Has Apple actually discontinued making their firewire-to-thunderbolt2 adapter? Or has it just sold out temporarily (if so, it's probably due to all the eBay sellers buying them up and reselling them at many times the original price)?

[dellsam34]

I'm not aware that Apple still sells firewire adapters, I did buy my own from Amazon but they were like $20 each or less a year ago. Regarding camcorders with USB, You would have to look up manuals, Once you find one up for sale just google the manual based on the model #.

[Alwyn]

DV camcorders which stream DV over USB: Panasonic GS-25, GS-300 (and others of the same line).

Pinnacle boxes which stream DV over USB: 500-USB (Windows 7 I believe...Dellsam?), 710-USB (I have one, Windows 10/11; note that it's analogue capture does not work here, however DV>USB streaming works well).

Thunderbolt adapters: reports on YT of it not working with some versions of later model Intel processors.

If you get totally stuck, analogue capture of DV using S-Video and a good digitiser such as the GV-USB2 works well and gives, IMO, the same quality. You miss out on the tape DV timecode though.

I have written a spiel about this topic on my website here.

[dellsam34]

I managed to get the 500-USB to work with Win10 a long ago, Haven't tried with newer Win10 updates and Win11.

[Alwyn]

Thanks Dellsam.

[Videogamer555]

DV camcorders which stream DV over USB: Panasonic GS-25, GS-300 (and others of the same line).

Pinnacle boxes which stream DV over USB: 500-USB (Windows 7 I believe...Dellsam?), 710-USB (I have one, Windows 10/11; note that it's analogue capture does not work here, however DV>USB streaming works well).

Thunderbolt adapters: reports on YT of it not working with some versions of later model Intel processors.

If you get totally stuck, analogue capture of DV using S-Video and a good digitiser such as the GV-USB2 works well and gives, IMO, the same quality. You miss out on the tape DV timecode though.

I have written a spiel about this topic on my website here.

Thanks for that info.

Are you aware of any MiniDV player decks that output DV over USB? Or do only some camcorders have that capability?

How did you get Pinnacle DV/USB drivers that actually worked on Windows 10 and 11? I didn't know that Pinnacle supported that hardware with modern drivers anymore.

[dellsam34]

Not with modern drivers, It just happen that Win7 drivers do work on later Windows versions but with some setting tweaking in the OS.

[Brainiac]

I had to capture 31 miniDV tapes recently. My desktop of course had no firewire port so I ordered a PCI-e firewire card from Amazon. Worked liked a charm.

This is the one I bought:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Q2G79QG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It showed in Device Manager as a VIA 1394 OHCI Host Controller.

[Videogamer555]

DV camcorders which stream DV over USB: Panasonic GS-25, GS-300 (and others of the same line).

Typically there's a dedicates USB port for the access to the memory card, and firewire port for access to the DV stream. So my question is, when using DV over USB on those camcorders you listed as supporting DV stream over USB, do you just use the camcorder's own USB port? Or do you use one of those USB to Firewire cables (often sold by Chinese eBay or 3rd party Amazon sellers, that are designed to allow specific models of camcorders that actually support USB protocol over their firewire port, but are commonly falsely advertised as a general solution for connecting Firewire devices to the USB port of a computer)?

[Bwaak]

when using DV over USB on those camcorders you listed as supporting DV stream over USB, do you just use the camcorder's own USB port?

Here: How to transfer video from a MiniDV camcorder to a computer via USB (YT video).

[Videogamer555]

Note that I did buy one of those mini-Firewire to USB cables, but when it arrived, on the package it said it's only for DCR-TRV75E, which is in the same product line as my camcorder (DCR-TRV17), but isn't the exact product. Note that I did plug it in to try it (the PC I tried it on has Windows 10), and Windows does recognize something is plugged into its USB port, it gave an error, about it being an invalid device or something.

When I then check in the Device Manager, for this device it shows the error"

Windows has stopped this device because it has reported problems. (Code 43)

A request for the USB device descriptor failed

Does this just mean that my particular USB-to-Firewire cable won't work (maybe a different mapping of the mini-Firewire port pins on the camcorder to the USB port pins on the PC is needed), but that a different one will work? Or is there a standard mapping of mini-Firewire to USB that's supported by all camcorders that support DV stream over USB?

Or is it that my USB port is a USB 3.x port rather than a true USB 2.x port? I know that at the time that my camcorder was being sold, USB 2.x was actually a fairly new technology, and USB 3.x hadn't even been invented yet. And I also know that while theoretically USB 3.x ports are backward compatible with USB 2.x devices and even USB 1.x devices, the case is often that older USB devices (those originally designed for USB 1.x or USB 2.x) have trouble working with newer USB 3.x ports. The laptop I'm using has three USB 3.x ports and no USB 2.x ports. Is that what's likely causing the problem?

Or is it simply that my camcorder's mini-Firewire port doesn't support USB over Firewire? I'd been hoping that this might be a hidden feature of the camera. I've never actually seen any camcorders advertised with capability to use the Firewire port to support a USB-to-Firewire cable (and all such cables seem to be sold by Chinese sellers on eBay or 3rd party Amazon sellers, never by big companies like Sony or Panasonic), but your mention of DV over USB being a possibility made me think this may be a hidden feature of some camcorder models.

Do you know if the 2 panasonic camcorder models you mentioned (GS-25 and GS-300) support such cables for streaming DV over USB via the camcorder's Firewire port? Or if they simply have an alternate USB mode that still uses the USB ports, but it streams the DV signal over its standard USB ports (so only a standard USB cable would be needed)?

[Alwyn]

Or if they simply have an alternate USB mode that still uses the USB ports, but it streams the DV signal over its standard USB ports (so only a standard USB cable would be needed)?

That's it. Use a standard USB cable, mini-b male on one end, USB-A male on the other.

The Firewire to USB adapter cables cannot work because the systems are completely different. Those cables are a con, nothing else.

[Videogamer555]

Or if they simply have an alternate USB mode that still uses the USB ports, but it streams the DV signal over its standard USB ports (so only a standard USB cable would be needed)?

That's it. Use a standard USB cable, mini-b male on one end, USB-A male on the other.

The Firewire to USB adapter cables cannot work because the systems are completely different. Those cables are a con, nothing else.

I think they are usable for some camcorders that have a firewire port that can be reconfigured to act as USB (in some cameras, maybe the firewire port interface chip can apparently be reconfigured, maybe in a menu setting to operate via USB protocol instead of Firewire protocol). In particular, several of these cables are advertised as working specifically with the DCR-TRV75E camcorder. Unlike the standard Firewire400 port (which has 6 pins), the mini Firewire400 port (as found on camcorders) has 4 pins, the same as a USB port. So it could theoretically work with 2 different protocols, if the interface chip can be internally reconfigured via menu options, to act either as a USB interface chip or a Firewire interface chip.

Again, have you had a chance to try one of these supposed scam cables with the DCR-TRV75E camcorder, to see whether or not it actually works? My DCR-TRV17 isn't the same model number, so even if it's from the same product line as the DCR-TRV75E, it's not guarentied to work (as I found out when trying it with my DCR-TRV17). So I'm considering buying on eBay the exact model number camcorder that the cable I bought (yes, I already bought one of these cables) supposedly works with. Now I found a DCR-TRV75E on eBay for under $100. But I hope somebody out there has one already to test with this. I don't want to spend a lot of money on a camcorder, unless somebody else has tested it with this cable first.

[Videogamer555]

when using DV over USB on those camcorders you listed as supporting DV stream over USB, do you just use the camcorder's own USB port?

Here: How to transfer video from a MiniDV camcorder to a computer via USB (YT video).

That's actually really cool. Does this not require you to download video stream drivers for the camcorder? I would think that only old drivers would exist for these camcorders, and so not work in Windows 10. Or does it somehow actually use generic Windows video capture drivers that all versions of Windows have?

[Alwyn]

Again, have you had a chance to try one of these supposed scam cables with the DCR-TRV75E camcorder

Nope, and I'm not going to. I don't believe it would work.

However, looking at the TRV75 manual, it does do DV streaming through the USB port (page 194-ish). However, that section also mentions drivers, which immediately raises the issue of whether they will work your OS. The two Panasonics I have mentioned did not require specific Panasonic drivers; I just plugged them in and they came up as shown on my website.

The common point with these camcorders is the Mini-B socket. If you have one of those on your camcorder, you may be in luck with DV over USB. There's also a menu item for this in the TRV: mentioned on page 194 of the TRV-75 manual. Check your manual for similar.

[Bwaak]

That's actually really cool. Does this not require you to download video stream drivers for the camcorder? I would think that only old drivers would exist for these camcorders, and so not work in Windows 10. Or does it somehow actually use generic Windows video capture drivers that all versions of Windows have?

No custom USB drivers. Works for me on Win 7 and Win 10. Haven't tried Win 11.

I don't think the TRV-17 is capable of sending DV video over USB, the user manual only mentions transferring still images from Memory Stick.

[thecoalman]

Be aware the USB port on most mini-dv cameras was commonly there for transferring photos from a SD card, they typically had camera function that produced images around 1MP and some could record video to it but it wasn't DV. If it was capable of streaming video over USB it was typically a low resolution stream you might use for live streaming. For both the recording and the live stream if I recall correctly it was DVD compliant mpeg1. I believe the idea was you could use it for webcam.

[pandy]

Unfortunately no modern computers have Firewire ports (or at least none that I can find on Google searches).

So why you don't buy old computer? There is plenty older machines equipped with FW - also they run Windows 7 easily so no problem...

Lenovo machines supporting FW here https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Firewire_Port

You probably can find easily similar list for Dell and HP - those machines cost around 50$ or less...

[Cornucopia]

Modern (desktop) computers are still sold with card slots, and it is simple enough to order a Firewire card - Amazon has 100s of models.

You have options.



Scott

[Bwaak]

Modern (desktop) computers are still sold with card slots, and it is simple enough to order a Firewire card - Amazon has 100s of models.

According to the IDC, laptops sell more than desktops. Here’s the breakdown for 2022:

Notebooks sold: 207,534,238
Detachable tablets sold: 81,478,058
Desktops sold: 76,924,993

A used Windows desktop can be purchased for $150 or less, but many just don't want to own a desktop machine, or they have nowhere to put it. There was a time when a desktop had the monitor smaller than many tablets. Modern all-in-one PCs are glorified flat screens and are not expandable. I hope that greedy manufacturers do not kill the concept of an expandable PC completely.

(Image from The Macintosh at Dartmouth)

[dellsam34]

Be aware the USB port on most mini-dv cameras was commonly there for transferring photos from a SD card, they typically had camera function that produced images around 1MP and some could record video to it but it wasn't DV. If it was capable of streaming video over USB it was typically a low resolution stream you might use for live streaming. For both the recording and the live stream if I recall correctly it was DVD compliant mpeg1. I believe the idea was you could use it for webcam.

No, there are few DV/D8 camcorders towards the end of the DV era that streamed full quality DV signal over USB 2.x not USB 1.x and even controlled the camcorder tape transport functions from the same port.

[pandy]

According to the IDC, laptops sell more than desktops. Here’s the breakdown for 2022

Long story short - instead desktop buy notebook with FW or one allowing for easy FW integration - side to this notebooks are ok for most of application unless your GPU consume few hundred watts and CPU add comparable power consumption then you have 800...1200W PSU i plenty of heatsink with fan's - definitely it will not fit in notebook size enclosure.

[thecoalman]

No, there are few DV/D8 camcorders towards the end of the DV era that streamed full quality DV signal over USB 2.x not USB 1.x and even controlled the camcorder tape transport functions from the same port.

I guess I could of been more clear but what I said was "commonly" and "typically", point is just because it has USB port doesn't mean it will transfer DV over it.

[Bwaak]

Long story short - instead desktop buy notebook with FW or one allowing for easy FW integration

Hindsight is 20/20. Are there notebooks with FW? How will you integrate FW into a notebook? I wish PC Card format was resurrected.

[dellsam34]

I guess I could of been more clear but what I said was "commonly" and "typically", point is just because it has USB port doesn't mean it will transfer DV over it.

My bad, I just wanted to make it clear to the OP that there are few camcorders that streamed DV over USB.

[dellsam34]

Hindsight is 20/20. Are there notebooks with FW? How will you integrate FW into a notebook? I wish PC Card format was resurrected.

It's still possible externally with Thunderbolt 3, I made it work with 2021 laptop running Wind 10 via USB-C port. Two dongles but worked.

[Bwaak]

Hindsight is 20/20. Are there notebooks with FW? How will you integrate FW into a notebook? I wish PC Card format was resurrected.

It's still possible externally with Thunderbolt 3, I made it work with 2021 laptop running Wind 10 via USB-C port. Two dongles but worked.

I saw this trick on YT but I did not want to spend like $80 for a couple of cables to test it myself. Heck, my wife's Win10 laptop has only USB-C, no Thunderbolt. I have Thunderbolt 2 on my MBP, but I don't use it for capturing. But considering that MBP is very popular, I guess this is what most people would want to use. If I could buy the dongles for $10-$15, I would try it, I've heard scary stories than non-Apple dongles would not work with MBP.