Why I keep mentioning rgb is because color grading in NLE or applying LUT is in RGB anyway, so you do not avoid it anyway. To keep everything in YUV using your plugins and way of things is not possible.
Guys are fixing videos in scripts, possibly all the way in YUV, but as soon you involve color grading NLE, you use RGB. If not, then you'd have to use NLE that fixes colors and such in YUV but it all changes for you, not sure with what result.
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Last edited by Sharc; 2nd May 2024 at 17:15.
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Last edited by Sharc; 3rd May 2024 at 02:50.
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There is no single answer to your question, it all depends on what you want to do and in what order.
You can immediately save everything in RGB, since it will be assembled in Vegas anyway (which works in RGB and, in addition, I don't know if it reads BT601 correctly). Especially since you write: "I am using basic color correction plug ins in virtualdub for basic color correction, I also have neat video for cleaning up in virtuldub which is a must on VHS, that also works in RGB". There is no point in changing YUV->RGB->YUV every now and then.
You can save to ProRes444XQ (YUV) -- there's no need to worry about losing 0.01% fidelity when you end up saving to YUV420 8bit anyway and losing 4-5% fidelity (according to SSIM).
How should it be exported in .h264 render template.
Upper field first, lower field first or progressive? -
[QUOTE=poisondeathray;2733959]
e.g. Preiere has YUV capable timeline, YUV capable filters. Shotcut can work in YUV too
[\QUOTE]
That's good news I will just work in premiere but would I need to set it a certain way?
What settings on import and export?
I have an old version of premiere I don't pay for the nee cloud based services.
can lagrith be used? I was thinking important Huff from Hybrid clean up and transcode lagrith in vegas to .h264
I've set the levels using graph studio with help from Alywen nothing goes into red but scenes do change from light to dark during films, how damaging is this conversation of colorspaces? Is it visible once you transcode to near lossless compressed.h264 and upload it to a video hosting site YouTube free or Vimeo a paid service? -
My order is virtuldub then de-noise with neat basic color correction in virtualdub and brightness, contrast, hsl adjustable then I have VD configured to save output as yuv2.
Take it into hybrid de-interlace resize if needed using Huffyuv codec because hybrid does not have lagrith installed it does have HuffYuv, take it into Vegas do advanced color correction then encoded that yuv file to .h264, but it seems vegas will convert my yuv2 saved video in virtuldub and I'm going to get the wrong color, brightness, white levels on the .h24 encoded by vegas.
This is how I have understood it please do correct ke if im wrong.
I can't find a way to solve this. -
I hate to say it but... teach yourself AVISynth/QTGMC. You sound like you've got your head screwed on re video so it won't be very difficult. I should do a guide for it.
Totally avoid Hybrid.
Then the flow is simple:
Set up your 5 line AVISynth script that will deinterlace with QTGMC when you open the AVS file in VDub (you save the script for other projects and just change the filename) (including getting the levels right before entry into VDub)
Open that script in VDub; apply whatever you need (eg Neat Video, Chromashifting, cropping, resizing) then export as HUFF or LAGS (or any other lossless codec you/Vegas likes)
Open that exported progressive file in Vegas and finalise and export to your MP4-type format.
I gave up on Hybrid because it couldn't do all the things I do to videos before the final export. And I'm a Visual person.
I'm sure it is great for one-stop-shopping a video but it's not for me. -
Only if the YUV levels are "legal" range first
Vegas reads 601 / 709 correctly
Not good news in Premiere if you use huffyuv 422 for import - it gets clipped too . Unless you're certain the levels are legal
In that case, it doesn't matter if you use vegas or premiere - both will still get converted to RGB because lossless YUV codecs like huffyuv, lagarith, utvideo are mishandled
For vegas, you still get the "computer range RGB" conversion, but you only get some expected errors fromr rounding and chroma up/down sampling , not major clipping
can lagrith be used? I was thinking important Huff from Hybrid clean up and transcode lagrith in vegas to .h264
I've set the levels using graph studio with help from Alywen nothing goes into red but scenes do change from light to dark during films, how damaging is this conversation of colorspaces? Is it visible once you transcode to near lossless compressed.h264 and upload it to a video hosting site YouTube free or Vimeo a paid service?
For higher quality sources, you might notice some deterioration - especially with color boundaries, graphics, solid colors. The reason for the difference is VHS has low chroma resolution to begin with
For YT/Vimeo , the final file should be legal range to look normalLast edited by poisondeathray; 3rd May 2024 at 09:03.
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Originally Posted by PDR
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I understand what your saying but I'm frightened to death about downloading filters from avisynth in case I get a virus on the computer, avisynth came with hybrid so it's on the system already and so is QTGMC.
Hybrid is easy you don't really have to do much just 5 clicks, with Avisynth you have to manually write a script it doesn't have an interface like virtualdub, this is why 99% of people run away from it, the other one percent don't care or don't know about it.
I wish QTGMC was like Yadif in VD 2 clicks and the video is de-interlaced it is relatively fast as well. -
I don't know if they are or not but I sent the pro amp using graph studio.
I made sure nothing was ij the red zone this should mean levels are legal right?
How bad is the loss?
How visible is it on a 24 inch. computer monitor?
It should be be because I've set the levels correctly using graph studio with help from Alywen nothing goes into red but scenes do change from light to dark during the films, how damaging is this conversation of colorspaces? Is it visible once you transcode to near lossless compressed.h264 and upload it to the internet a via YouTube free or Vimeo a paid service?
That's good news -
Stick with RGB. These filters work in RGB, so there is no point in converting when saving to YUV. You can save your work in Lagarith 10- or 16-bit RGB (Neat works in RGB64) or ProRes444XQ 10-bit (YUV).
Don't forget to check the options: Decode Format -> YUV 601, Limited.
Take it into hybrid de-interlace resize if needed using Huffyuv codec because hybrid does not have lagrith installed it does have HuffYuv, take it into Vegas do advanced color correction then encoded that yuv file to .h264, but it seems vegas will convert my yuv2 saved video in virtuldub and I'm going to get the wrong color, brightness, white levels on the .h24 encoded by vegas.. Then do the opposite and compare.
I don't know Hybrid, if you want to do color correction in Vegas, I would use something 10-bit (ProRes) for the output.
This is how I have understood it please do correct ke if im wrong.
I can't find a way to solve this.
1. Deinterlace with Hybrid (save as ProRes444XQ or something lossless).
2. Denoise + color correction with Vegas (Neat).
Only two steps. The best way, because Vegas works with a bit depth of 32 bits, so you don't lose any quality between Neat and color correction.
(or:
1. Deinterlace with Hybrid (save as ProRes444XQ or something lossless).
2. Denoise with VDub (Neat)
3. Color correction in Vegas.
)Last edited by rgr; 3rd May 2024 at 14:08.
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YUV makes sense for VHS capture , and YUV for delivery to YT/Vimeo
RGB filters are ok - but for huffyuv YUV, lagarith YUV, ut video YUV inputs - convert to RGB using standard method ONLY if the YUV levels are "legal" range first , or you're sure you have no usable data in the 0-15 and 236-255 range - otherwise you clip . It happens with standard vdub RGB conversion too
And yes, vegas mostly reads other limited/full range files correctly. The issue is the mishandling of the "lossless" YUV formats such as huffyuv, lagarith, ut video
Negligible for VHS sources if the YUV levels were in legal range before the RGB conversion . But if you had uncorrected usable overbrights, potentially worse, because there will beless detail in bright areas (because they are clipped), and possibly dark areas (less likely, as most sources rarely have usable data < Y=16)
Chroma up/downsampling losses from YUV 422 => RGB => YUV 422 (or 420) are more visible with sharp color borders, higher quality sources. But VHS has low effective chroma resolution to begin with, so you usually won't see the extra blurring or deteriorationLast edited by poisondeathray; 3rd May 2024 at 19:27.
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yes, op is panicking, thinking of changing a software etc.
I recommended it as well, legalize levels, that should be a norm anyway, using Vegas or something else.
Flip the order of apps you work so far, start in Hybrid, legalize levels, deinterlace and load a lossless or almost lossless into Vegas, edit, export.
Hybrid might even load your own made LUT to legalize blown highlights:
In Vegas with a test capture clip, in Color Grading select RL Color Wheels, select Highlights and move Y a bit to the left. Watch Histogram so you have legal highlights. Then export that LUT to have it available to load it into Hybrid. I think Selur has some button to load a custom LUT there. -
[QUOTE=rgr;2734099]
There is no single answer to your question
Stick with RGB. These filters work in RGB, so there is no point in converting when saving to YUV. You can save your work in Lagarith 10- or 16-bit RGB (Neat works in RGB64) or ProRes444XQ 10-bit (YUV).
Don't forget to check the options: Decode Format -> YUV 601, Limited.
[\QUOTE]
I capture RGB, save RGB?
Vegas does not show REC601
or BT709 , you just have RGB
or YUY2 in temple
I can capture and then de-noise in VD but that would mean it would be de-noising interlaced material, Neat asks you about that, it wants you tell it if the footage is interlaced or progressive.
I could temporarily de-interlace in Yadif - bulit in to VD de-noise once neat is applied I can remove the Yadif interlace filter from the filters list, will this not have a negative effect on the overall image quality?
I think 2nd option is best
1. Capture lossless
2. Denoise in VD (neat)
3. Color correction Vegas
4. Save from Vegas .h264
What would be the best bitrate? -
So I should change VD settings to save RGB
[QUOTE=rgr;2734099]
Vegas reads both limited and full range (depending on the format).
In his case, YUV makes no sense anyway, using YUV no longer makes sense after the first filter in VD.
YUV makes sense for VHS capture , and YUV for delivery to YT/Vimeo
RGB filters are ok - but for huffyuv YUV, lagarith YUV, ut video YUV inputs - convert to RGB using standard method ONLY if the YUV levels are "legal" range first , or you're sure you have no usable data in the 0-15 and 236-255 range - otherwise you clip . It happens with standard vdub RGB conversion too
And yes, vegas mostly reads other limited/full range files correctly. The issue is the mishandling of the "lossless" YUV formats such as huffyuv, lagarith, ut video
[\QUOTE]
So when I export I should tick the convert VUV to RGB in the huff settings?
[QUOTE=poisondeathray;2733959]
Negligible for VHS sources if the YUV levels were in legal range before the RGB conversion . But if you had uncorrected usable overbrights, potentially worse, because there will beless detail in bright areas (because they are clipped), and possibly dark areas (less likely, as most sources rarely have usable data < Y=16)
Chroma up/downsampling losses from YUV 422 => RGB => YUV 422 (or 420) are more visible with sharp color borders, higher quality sources. But VHS has low effective chroma resolution to begin with, so you usually won't see the extra blurring or deterioration [\QUOTE]
I have all levels set correctly but brightness and contrast changes scene to scene, but I can lowet brightness levels with VD built in filter and then export lossless to Hybrid de-interlace resize, final color correction.h264 render and not worry about anything else. -
Last edited by rgr; 4th May 2024 at 17:13.
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Capture YUV lossless.
Since you are using VirtualDub with the Neat filter, you are already converting to RGB (Neat only accepts RGB). What's the point of then converting back to YUV (Huffyuv or Lagarith)?
But where's the deinterlacing? -
Yes
But the original huffyuv can have problems with RGB encoding . FFMpeg Huffyuv option in vdub2 can do RGB but it will be flagged progressive. Lagarith will not have interlaced flags or field order signalling either
It's not a problem if you interpret the field order correctly in the next software
Exporting RGB after RGB filters makes sense
But the original huffyuv can have problem with RGB output - it often converts back to YUY2 . There are several huffyuv variants around, maybe one of the does it correctly -
filter then save RGB
Can I save original file as YUY2 then convert to RGB using direct stream copy option?
or save YUY2 then save RGB?
Lagrith always shows as progressive it doesn't flag correctly
Huffyuv does seem to foat but always bottom field first.
I have the original Huff the experts say use the original. -
I de-interlace and tell hybrid to ignore input scan and I always change it to upper field first even huffy that shows bottom field first in hybrid media info section.
Then I get shimmering on playback on the encoded file if I color correct in vegas first that's why I won't be doing that.
I don't even resize in virtualdub or vegss I resize in hybrid, I read somewhere the shimmering can happen if it has been cropped snd resized?.
At the moment I'm just going to capture stuff and then get back to all this because it all seems very complicated. -
What for?
And you can't convert anything using Direct Stream.
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Originally Posted by VHSVideocap
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That's what I always thought but whenever I capture with Huff and send it to Hybrid the media info section always says bottom field first I just ignore and ask it to overwrite input scan to TFF.
I hope I am doing the correct thing by ignoring it?
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