VideoHelp Forum
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3
1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 84
Thread
  1. Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Germany
    Search PM
    Hi,

    attached are two versions of the same video clip. Titled Seq1 and Seq2. Both captured under different setups (players, cable connections) and with different codecs / compression.

    Whithout telling you how each version was captured, I'd ask you to decide merely by comparing them / analyzing them which one yields the better results, if any.

    Seq2 is attached below, Seq1 exceeded the forum's file size for attachments, so I uploaded it here: https://we.tl/t-uc8wig1rZU

    Thanks a lot in advance!
    Image Attached Files
    Quote Quote  
  2. Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Australia-PAL Land
    Search Comp PM
    This'll be fun! A blind test. "You can't do that!"
    Quote Quote  
  3. Member DB83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Search Comp PM
    Beats me why you needed to open a new topic rather than post the samples as a continuation of your other one which you recently brought back to life.

    Nothing wrong with DV. The 'uncompressed' one (which is not AFAIK true uncompressed) adds nothing but excessive bitrate which is over 3 times what you would achieve with a straight forward lossless codec.
    Quote Quote  
  4. Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Germany
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    The 'uncompressed' one (which is not AFAIK true uncompressed) adds nothing but excessive bitrate which is over 3 times what you would achieve with a straight forward lossless codec.
    I know. I was going to convert the uncompressed into a lossless format after capture. I thought that capturing uncompressed might be the least strain on my computer, avoiding dropped frames as best as possible. And after capture, I can then put the files into any NLE or converting software.
    Quote Quote  
  5. For uncompressed video, you can zip /7zip etc.. archive them to fit the forum file limit restrictions .

    What criteria are you using ? "better" in what way ?

    Seq1 has drops so it would already be disqualified for me
    Quote Quote  
  6. Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Germany
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Seq1 has drops so it would already be disqualified for me
    Interesting... VirtualDub2 did not show or mention any dropped or inserted frames... How can there be drops?
    Quote Quote  
  7. Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Seq1 has drops so it would already be disqualified for me
    Interesting... VirtualDub2 did not show or mention any dropped or inserted frames... How can there be drops?
    This has already been explained a couple of times before..... And when will people stop to ask for "best"? What is the "best" car? In which respect?
    Quote Quote  
  8. Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Germany
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
    This has already been explained a couple of times before.....
    Can you link to the answer in the other thread (which has grown so large that it's hard to find anything again)?

    In which respect? I'm thinking of picture quality (Colors, noise, artefacts, etc). Does one look significantly better than the other.

    As for the supposed drops:
    I'm really at my wit's end here. I set up a new OS (Windows XP) and only installed the Blackmagic Intensity software for the least amount of usage and strain and used VirtualDub (as some of you have suggested) for capturing, not BM Media Express and apparently there are still dropped frames?

    It seems there is no way to avoid them, then?
    Last edited by Marvolo; 31st Jan 2024 at 09:51.
    Quote Quote  
  9. Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
    Can you link to the answer in the other thread (which has grown so large that it's hard to find anything again)?
    If you are lazy to search I am lazy. And there are more threads addressing that subject, not just yours.

    Originally Posted by Marvolo
    In which respect? I'm thinking of picture quality. Does one look significantly better than the other.
    Define picture quality. What criteria? It matters what looks good or better to you, to your eyes.
    Quote Quote  
  10. Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Germany
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
    Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
    Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
    This has already been explained a couple of times before.....
    Can you link to the answer in the other thread (which has grown so large that it's hard to find anything again)?
    If you are lazy to serach I am lazy. And there are more threads addressing that subject, not just yours.

    In which respect? I'm thinking of picture quality. Does one look significantly better than the other.
    Define picture quality. What criteria? It matters what looks good to you, to your eyes.
    Refresh the page. I edited my post.
    Quote Quote  
  11. Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Seq1 has drops so it would already be disqualified for me
    Interesting... VirtualDub2 did not show or mention any dropped or inserted frames... How can there be drops?
    I don't know, I'm just reporting what I see . A field drop near the beginning, I haven't looked farther on, there might be more

    You can see this in vdub2, double rate deinterlace with yadif or bob - so it's a essentially a resized preview of fields. The frame number will correspond to the field number. Look around frames 8-11 (corresponding to actual fields 8-11)



    My opinion - for general use DV is perfectly fine for this type of analog source for most scenarios.

    For archival scenario - I wouldn't use DV if possible. Compression artifacts, macroblocks. But it can be difficult technically to get a proper lossless capture as you are experiencing....

    I'm thinking of picture quality (Colors, noise, artefacts, etc). Does one look significantly better than the other.
    "better", and "colors" are subjective categories

    A lossless capture will preserve the original noise and color (and if original had problems, preserve more of the original problems) . It's a better starting spot because you can adjust colors/noise/artifacts in post.

    Artifacts are objective - DV adds ompression artifacts, macroblocks. If you have trouble seeing them, you can zoom in and apply a sharpen . It shouldn't make that much of a difference for general use - but for archival, restoration scenarios - it's less ideal. Many current and future workflows (machine learning) will enhance those macroblocks. There is literally less signal to noise for a DV version
    Quote Quote  
  12. Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Germany
    Search PM
    Thank you, yes, I was experimenting with AI based enhancement techniques and thus thought I needed a capture as pristine and clear as possible. So I wasn't going to use the DV files for that purpose.

    I'm still stumped as to why my setup produces dropped frames and the DV setup didn't... Neither is my system in any way close to be maxed out during capture nor does VDub notify me of any drops. Is there anything I can possibly do or just give up at that point?
    Quote Quote  
  13. Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
    I'm still stumped as to why my setup produces dropped frames and the DV setup didn't... Neither is my system in any way close to be maxed out during capture nor does VDub notify me of any drops. Is there anything I can possibly do or just give up at that point?
    No idea, I can't think of anything else that wasn't already suggested in your other thread

    If you can, I would try some experiments on some friends/ neighbors computers .
    Quote Quote  
  14. Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
    I'm still stumped as to why my setup produces dropped frames and the DV setup didn't... Neither is my system in any way close to be maxed out during capture nor does VDub notify me of any drops. Is there anything I can possibly do or just give up at that point?
    Dropped frames have recently been discussed here, for example. In general people have been advised against using VDub2 for capturing. You have to try what works best for your setup though.
    Quote Quote  
  15. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Member Since 2005, Re-joined in 2016
    Search PM
    What's with those horizontal alternating bright lines? Are they in the viewfinder?

    Image Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot 2024-01-31 103348.png
Views:	340
Size:	284.3 KB
ID:	76655  

    Quote Quote  
  16. Member DB83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Search Comp PM
    A simplistic take on a possible reason for the dropped frame(s) in Seq1

    Seq1 = 'uncompressed' @ 166 mb/s
    Seq2 = DV @ 24 mb/s


    Not tested but....
    typical lossless @ 46 mb/s


    And we know little to nowt about your system. PC or laptop ?. No of drives etc.
    Quote Quote  
  17. Good grief, I have to download almost a gigabyte of video?

    There is no reason in the entire world to EVER use uncompressed.

    As for this being a blind test, since DV is not uncompressed, I think everyone can guess which is which.

    I will try to take a look, probably later in the day when your gigantic file finishes downloading.
    Quote Quote  
  18. Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Germany
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    What's with those horizontal alternating bright lines? Are they in the viewfinder?

    Those horizontal lines must have been recorded by the camera. I can't explain what they are, how they came about and why they're there. Nearly all of my Video8 tapes have them.
    Quote Quote  
  19. Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Germany
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
    Good grief, I have to download almost a gigabyte of video? .
    Doesn't almost everybody have highspeed connection these days? Here in Germany, you can't possibly get lower than a 50 mbit/s connection, even if you wanted because no-one sells those anymore. 1 GB file takes a couple seconds for me.

    But I appreciate the effort of downloading it for comparison purposes.
    Quote Quote  
  20. Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Germany
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    And we know little to nowt about your system. PC or laptop ?. No of drives etc.
    Board: https://www.gigabyte.com/de/Motherboard/GA-EX58-UD5-rev-10#ov
    CPU: https://www.amazon.de/Intel-i7-920-2-66GHz-LGA1366-Prozessor/dp/B001H5T7LK
    RAM: 12 GB
    HDDs: 2 SSDs (Dual Boot configuration) for system, 2 1TB HDDs for capturing. They're empty, ready to capture.
    OS: Dual Boot configuration:
    Windows XP SP3 x86 (SSD 1) for capturing with nothing but the capturing software installed and mandatory drivers
    Windows 10 x64 (SSD 2) for normal, everyday usage.

    During capture, VDub2 reported CPU activity around 2-4%.
    Quote Quote  
  21. Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2022
    Location
    Bavaria
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
    Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
    Good grief, I have to download almost a gigabyte of video? .
    Doesn't almost everybody have highspeed connection these days? Here in Germany, you can't possibly get lower than a 50 mbit/s connection, even if you wanted because no-one sells those anymore.
    That may be off-topic, but I can't leave it like that. That's just wishful thinking, especially in rural areas. The largest provider in Germany still offers 16 Mbit/s connections although in some areas even these speeds are still not available.

    Skiller has already given you the answer for the dropped frames here:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/410065-The-old-war-of-opinion-Capture-8mm-tapes-in...12#post2696078

    The most important thing for me would be that audio and video are synchronized.
    Quote Quote  
  22. Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Germany
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post

    The most important thing for me would be that audio and video are synchronized.
    While capturing with VDub2, this doesn't always seem to be the case. I noticed a slight offset in audio/video sync compared to when I was capturing using the Blackmagic Media Express Software a couple months ago.
    Quote Quote  
  23. Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    What's with those horizontal alternating bright lines? Are they in the viewfinder?

    I have often seen these lines for SONY analog PAL video. Usually fixable in Avisynth with
    Code:
    separatefields()
    vinverse()
    weave()
    No idea what's causing these stripes. Something like Hanover bars?
    Quote Quote  
  24. Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Germany
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    What's with those horizontal alternating bright lines? Are they in the viewfinder?

    I have often seen these lines for SONY analog PAL video. Usually fixable in Avisynth with
    Code:
    separatefields()
    vinverse()
    weave()
    No idea what's causing these stripes. Something like Hanover bars?
    The original camcorder which recorded those tapes was a Blaupunkt CR-8000. I always assumed that the cam was faulty.
    Quote Quote  
  25. There is no meaningful difference in color, noise, or detail. I didn't have the time to look for dropped frames, but if your fancy capture has dropped frames, as it did in the past, then that is enough to completely rule out using that.

    Use the capture you've had all along and finish the project. You have WAY more issues to deal with (color correction, stabilization, and other enhancements). Those will make a much bigger difference in viewing enjoyment.

    P.S. I am in a rural area. I have 25 mbps download, and 5 mbps upload.
    Quote Quote  
  26. Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Germany
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by johnmeyer View Post
    but if your fancy capture has dropped frames, as it did in the past, .
    Apparently, it does.
    I don't know what else to do.

    I'll try one more time and use a different software for capturing. Not VDub and not Blackmagic Media Express and if it produces dropped frames again, then I'm seriously done.

    Never thought that capturing non-DV would be that complicated.
    Last edited by Marvolo; 1st Feb 2024 at 02:36.
    Quote Quote  
  27. Member DB83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Search Comp PM
    The answer is simple and especially if you are capturing on a non-Win10 system (I use Win7 but XP should also be fine)

    Download and install the huffyuv lossless codec and download Amarectv as the capture program installing that codec.


    The capture will be as good as that 'uncompressed' one and much, much smaller.
    Quote Quote  
  28. Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Location
    Germany
    Search PM
    I'll try and then post the results.
    Quote Quote  
  29. Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    What's with those horizontal alternating bright lines? Are they in the viewfinder?


    You have to use the Destripe filter in avisynth:

    Before/after:
    https://imgsli.com/MjM3MDE2


    Code:
    AVISource("Horizontal lines.avi")
    assumetff()
    converttoyv12(interlaced=true)
    
    #1)  Deinterlacing in  LOSSLESS MODE with QTGMC:
    QTGMC( Preset="fast", SourceMatch=3, Lossless=1, Sharpness=0.4, TR2=2, EdiThreads=4)
    Selecteven()
    
    #2) DESTRIPE FILTER (AS MANY INSTANCES AS REQUIRED TO GET RID OF THE STRIPES):
    
    TurnLeft()
    DeStripe(2,3,16)
    DeStripe(2,2,16)
    DeStripe(2,1,12)
    TurnRight()
    
    #3) Take care of residual combing with vinverse:
    Vinverse()
    
    
    #########################################
    
    function DeStripe(Clip C, int "rad", int "offset", int "thr")
    {
    
        rad = Default(rad, 2)
        offset = Default(offset, 0)
        thr_ = Default(thr, 256)
    
    
        Blurred = Rad == 1 ? C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : C
        Blurred = Rad == 2 ? offset == 0 ? C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 0 1 0 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : Blurred
        Blurred = Rad == 3 ? offset == 0 ?  C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : offset == 1 ?  C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 0 1 0 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : Blurred
        Blurred = Rad == 4 ? offset == 0 ?  C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) :  offset == 1 ? C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) :  offset == 2 ? C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : Blurred
        Blurred = Rad == 5 ? offset == 0 ?  C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) :  offset == 1 ?  C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) :  offset == 2 ?  C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) :  offset == 3 ?  C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : Blurred
            Diff = Mt_Makediff(C, Blurred)
    
        THR=string(thr_)
        MedianDiff =  Rad == 1 ? MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 1 0 -1 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : Diff
        MedianDiff =  Rad == 2 ? offset == 0 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 1 0 -1 0 2 0 -2 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 2 0 -2 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MedianDiff
        MedianDiff =  Rad == 3 ? offset == 0 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 1 0 -1 0 2 0 -2 0 3 0 -3 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : offset == 1 ? MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 2 0 -2 0 3 0 -3 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 3 0 -3 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MedianDiff
        MedianDiff =  Rad == 4 ? offset == 0 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 1 0 -1 0 2 0 -2 0 3 0 -3 0 4 0 -4 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : offset == 1 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 2 0 -2 0 3 0 -3 0 4 0 -4 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : offset == 2 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 3 0 -3 0 4 0 -4 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 4 0 -4 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MedianDiff
        MedianDiff =  Rad == 5 ? offset == 0 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 1 0 -1 0 2 0 -2 0 3 0 -3 0 4 0 -4 0 5 0 -5 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : offset == 1 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 2 0 -2 0 3 0 -3 0 4 0 -4 0 5 0 -5 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : offset == 2 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 3 0 -3 0 4 0 -4 0 5 0 -5 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : offset == 3 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 4 0 -4 0 5 0 -5 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 5 0 -5 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MedianDiff
            ReconstructedMedian = mt_makediff(Diff, MedianDiff)
                Mt_AddDiff(Blurred, ReconstructedMedian)
    
    Return(Mergechroma(Last, C, 1))
    }
    *** DIGITIZING VHS / ANALOG VIDEOS SINCE 2001**** GEAR: JVC HR-S7700MS, TOSHIBA V733EF AND MORE
    Quote Quote  



Similar Threads

Visit our sponsor! Try DVDFab and backup Blu-rays!