what do 'cinema reel' thumbnail videos signify???

[pinoco]

hi everybody,
i posted on the sister forum (or diff. topic , is it?) of ffmpeg batch av converter. i wanted a command to add padding to vertical videos.
The main point: some videos show cinema reel icons/thumbnails in win10/11 and some dont. even if 2 videos have same codec, resolution, bitrate, everything same BUT one video file shows this cinema reel icon whereas other doesnt show anything. the reason i am interested is; the cinema reel icon videos have wide compatibility with electronic devices. eg. my 55inch android tv ONLY accepts videos if they have this cinema reel icon (as seen in PC)!!! if it is exactly same video but without cinema reeel icon then it is not played by the tv!!!
came across this issue when trying to play mobile recorded videos on the tv. only some video converter's converted videos r shown by windows in this thumbnail fashion. thus came to this website and found ffmpeg batch av converter. its videos show this cinema reeel icon andf thus r played by the tv. but the videos of this software are not as good in quality as handbrake or WinX video converter or other paid ones. all these other softs have better quality in smaller sized visdeo BUT dont have the cinema reel icon thingy. so their videos r no use for the tv.
what is with this cinema reel icon thingy????? what do videos with this thumbnail signify?? anybody have any idea??

my videos with all tried converters have same configs i.e. codec: h264 , resolution: 3840 x 2160 , crf (tried many) 18 gives videos with similar size to original.

example of video file with and without this cinema reel icon-->

[Attachment 76209 - Click to enlarge]

as u can see, it is same file but one shows the cinema icon while other doesnt.
please, any expert out there , who can shed some light on this phenomenon....cause the tv ONLY accepts this icon videos....u people might come across same problem. maybe.
please , if anyone knows or has this much knowledge about video conversion or formatting, please help.

[jagabo]

Portrait vs landscape. Ie, whether the frame is taller than it is wide, or wider than it is tall.

[Sharc]

@pinoco: Maybe try something like this. It will 'normalize' your videos and add pads to produce a fix frame size (canvas of 1920x1080) which your TV should play

ffmpeg -y -i "%~1" -c:a aac -c:v libx264 -preset slow -crf 20 -filter:v "scale=w=1920:h=1080:force_original_aspect_ratio=decrease,pad=1920:1080:-1:-1:color=black" "%~1_normalized.mp4"

[pinoco]

@pinoco: Maybe try something like this. It will 'normalize' your videos and add pads to produce a fix frame size (canvas of 1920x1080) which your TV should play

ffmpeg -y -i "%~1" -c:a aac -c:v libx264 -preset slow -crf 20 -filter:v "scale=w=1920:h=1080:force_original_aspect_ratio=decrease,pad=1920:1080:-1:-1:color=black" "%~1_normalized.mp4"

hi, thanks for the reply. but i already got a similar command in the other forum and it works!! BUT this solution is only available for ffmpeg libraires using softwares (like the ffmpeg batch av converter that i used finally!!), these softs accept commands also.

didnt find 'normalize' or other such options in handbrake or other softs that would solve problem for their converted videos. as said, their videos DONT show the cinema reel icon, come what may!! (BTW , their 1080p videos DO SHOW cinema reel icon and are played on tv. it is the 4k ones that r not compatible)

[pinoco]

Portrait vs landscape. Ie, whether the frame is taller than it is wide, or wider than it is tall.

it is portrait. all videos are portrait. i.e. frame is taller than it is wide.

[Sharc]

@pinoco: Maybe try something like this. It will 'normalize' your videos and add pads to produce a fix frame size (canvas of 1920x1080) which your TV should play

ffmpeg -y -i "%~1" -c:a aac -c:v libx264 -preset slow -crf 20 -filter:v "scale=w=1920:h=1080:force_original_aspect_ratio=decrease,pad=1920:1080:-1:-1:color=black" "%~1_normalized.mp4"

hi, thanks for the reply. but i already got a similar command in the other forum and it works!! BUT this solution is only available for ffmpeg libraires using softwares (like the ffmpeg batch av converter that i used finally!!), these softs accept commands also.

didnt find 'normalize' or other such options in handbrake or other softs that would solve problem for their converted videos. as said, their videos DONT show the cinema reel icon, come what may!! (BTW , their 1080p videos DO SHOW cinema reel icon and are played on tv. it is the 4k ones that r not compatible)

Don't expect buttons and menus in GUIs for all kind of (exceptional) conversions. Of course you won't find a 'normalize' option there. Use the commandline directly if it works for your 4k sources.

Edit:
It seems like Eibol has now adopted this commandline as a preset in his latest update of FFmpeg Batch Converter. Try it.

[jagabo]

Portrait vs landscape. Ie, whether the frame is taller than it is wide, or wider than it is tall.

it is portrait. all videos are portrait. i.e. frame is taller than it is wide.

No, the picture on the left in your first post clearly shows black pillarbox bars. Those are part of the encoded frame so the video is landscape.

I actually ran several test on Win10 before posting my first response. Any time the frame was taller than wide it showed a bare icon. Every time the frame was wider than tall it displayed with the cinema reel frame.

[Alwyn]

Once you've seen the cine reels, you'll never unsee them! Fascinating stuff.

The Handbrake > Dimensions tab would be the most confusing piece of software I have ever come across. My brain overheated and I gave up on it.

I was able to add borders using AVIDemux as follows:

Open your file and set an encoder;

Click on Filters.

AVIDemux automatically flipped my portrait video to Landscape on opening so I had to flip it back to Portrait with the Rotate filter.

Using swsResize, Resize it for UHD (2160 height):


[Attachment 76272 - Click to enlarge]

It kept changing back to 2158 for some reason.

Add Borders:


[Attachment 76273 - Click to enlarge]

This will give you a pillarboxed video in a UHD landscape frame.

[Sharc]

Here the simple commandline alternatrive to GUIs which I use for my mobile video files, WhatsApp video files etc.:

- Unpack the attached pinoco.zip to your desktop
- open the folder pinoco in explorer
You will see the 2 files: ffmpeg.exe and pinoco.cmd
- Now select all the video files which you want to convert and drag&drop them alltogether onto pinoco.cmd

The files will be converted one by one in a batch


Notes:
You can easily adjust the canvas (1920x1080) in the pincoco.cmd and the -crf 20 to your needs.
You can delete the large ffmpeg.exe if you have it already somewhere on your PC (preferably in the PATH).

[pinoco]

Portrait vs landscape. Ie, whether the frame is taller than it is wide, or wider than it is tall.

it is portrait. all videos are portrait. i.e. frame is taller than it is wide.

No, the picture on the left in your first post clearly shows black pillarbox bars. Those are part of the encoded frame so the video is landscape.

I actually ran several test on Win10 before posting my first response. Any time the frame was taller than wide it showed a bare icon. Every time the frame was wider than tall it displayed with the cinema reel frame.

BINGO! i think u hit the jackpot! it has to do with 'wider than tall' frames/videos and THATS when the pc will show cinema reel icons (widescreen cinema scope , it means , maybe?). sooooooo, my tv cannot decode if the frame is taller than wide BUT can decode if frame is wider or as wide as tall. i naever realised that the black pillar bars are actually part of the video/frame. i was stupidly looking at the main ppicture (central part).
soooo, to conclude, the softwares like handbrake or WinX or others need to add/pad black pillar boxes to the 4k videos so they r recognised by my tv. as of now , all the 4k videos produced by these softs DONT have the black pillars (only their 1080p videos have the pillars). thus these softs need to start rendering the WHOLE frame i.e. including the padded black pillars !!!! since the original videos DONT have padding/pillars, the converted video results from these softs are also WITHOUT them.

"ShanaEncoder 6.0.1.7" (another soft i tested from this site) has this padding option in its conversion dialog and adds it by default, thus its videos are also showing cinema reel icon and r recognised by the tv.
unfortunately, ShanaEncoder gives video quality that is little worse than ffmpeg batch av converter; let alone better than it , or as good as WinX software!!!!

i hoped WinX would have that padding option, but alas...it DOESNT!!! (as said, its conversion quality is really fantastic as compared to all these ffmpeg libraries dependent softs)
BTW the frame being wider than tall is required by my tv ONLY for 4k videos. for 1080p videos , it can play them EVEN if frame is taller than wide.
in that case (1080p) it itself adds the padding!!!!!!!
in short the tv doesnt recognise 4k videos in portrait mode.

BTW i still dont understand this landscape and portrait effect. when u look at the file/video info in a video player like vlc or potplayer it shows: width 3840 , height 2160 . same is true for 1080p ones : width 1920 , height 1080 . in short the videos actually are wider than tall (there is just another info/flag : Rotation 90 ). what the mobile goofs up the videos i have no idea.

[pinoco]

Here the simple commandline alternatrive to GUIs which I use for my mobile video files, WhatsApp video files etc.:

- Unpack the attached pinoco.zip to your desktop
- open the folder pinoco in explorer
You will see the 2 files: ffmpeg.exe and pinoco.cmd
- Now select all the video files which you want to convert and drag&drop them alltogether onto pinoco.cmd

The files will be converted one by one in a batch


Notes:
You can easily adjust the canvas (1920x1080) in the pincoco.cmd and the -crf 20 to your needs.
You can delete the large ffmpeg.exe if you have it already somewhere on your PC (preferably in the PATH).

hi,thank you very much for the customised folder with batch file. But it fails to solve my problem. i already used a similar command in ffmpeg batch av converter and it gave me EXACTLY the same output as your batch file is giving. (since both are using ffmpeg in background). But i want better quality in the converted videos; like handbrake or WinX gives me. handbrake gives much smaller size file BUT with much more better clarity/quality. the problem is, handbrake or winX dont give black padded pillars in their converted videos. so the tv doesnt play them. their videos are not landscape. their videos are portrait. their videos dont have cinema reel icons.
thus, i want to be able to add this "padding" to these other softs (handbrake or winX). but since they DONT accept commandline (like ffmpeg batch av converter), my problem remains.
if u know how to pass this command of yours to handbrake, it would be great!!!!

update:
i found the option in handbrake to add the pillarboxes. it is to add 'borders' in one of the tabs. now handbrake also gives pillarbox videos and my tv can play them.

[Sharc]

hi,thank you very much for the customised folder with batch file. But it fails to solve my problem. i already used a similar command in ffmpeg batch av converter and it gave me EXACTLY the same output as your batch file is giving.

No wonder as I provided the commandline for you before, just without the batch

But i want better quality in the converted videos; like handbrake or WinX gives me. handbrake gives much smaller size file BUT with much more better clarity/quality. the problem is, handbrake or winX dont give black padded pillars in their converted videos. so the tv doesnt play them. their videos are not landscape. their videos are portrait. their videos dont have cinema reel icons.

What a pity. Much smaller file size, much clearer, no pillars, wow, but unfortunately the wonderware doesn't play on your TV

thus, i want to be able to add this "padding" to these other softs (handbrake or winX). but since they DONT accept commandline (like ffmpeg batch av converter), my problem remains.
if u know how to pass this command of yours to handbrake, it would be great!!!!

What for? The ffmpeg commandline does not require Handbrake or WinX or whatever. It works on it own (using ffmpeg) and adds the padding for converting your portrait videos to landscape to please your TV. As I wrote in post#9 for better quality you may want to increase the resolution (to what your TV supports) and reduce the crf to improve the quality of the encoding.

Well, maybe I misunderstand your problem ....

[jagabo]

thank you very much for the customised folder with batch file. But it fails to solve my problem. i already used a similar command in ffmpeg batch av converter and it gave me EXACTLY the same output as your batch file is giving. (since both are using ffmpeg in background). But i want better quality in the converted videos

As Sharc pointed out earlier, change the canvas size from 1920x1080 to 3840x2160.

[pinoco]

Once you've seen the cine reels, you'll never unsee them! Fascinating stuff.

The Handbrake > Dimensions tab would be the most confusing piece of software I have ever come across. My brain overheated and I gave up on it.

I was able to add borders using AVIDemux as follows:

Open your file and set an encoder;

Click on Filters.

AVIDemux automatically flipped my portrait video to Landscape on opening so I had to flip it back to Portrait with the Rotate filter.

Using swsResize, Resize it for UHD (2160 height):


[Attachment 76272 - Click to enlarge]

It kept changing back to 2158 for some reason.

Add Borders:


[Attachment 76273 - Click to enlarge]

This will give you a pillarboxed video in a UHD landscape frame.

hi, i found ur suggestion useful. although not in avidemux . i used handbrake and added 'borders' in its options, ur number in the image (1312) helped. how did u come across or calculate this number? i just used the half of this number for other 1080p vertical videos and it worked,; since 1080p is exactly half of 4k. thus this 1312 number is working for adding borders in handbrake. how did u calculate it?
BTW, the handbrake dimesions tab IS bad. u just have to juggle through the preset in dropdown and look at the size in lower area. u actually need to select '8k super....' something to get proper 4k resolution.

[Alwyn]

The original video was 1080 x 1920, or 1214 x 2160 (2160 being the height of the UHD frame).

The width of the UHD frame is 3840.

3840-1214=2626; that's the total blank space remaining of the 3840 after the actual video (1214) is taken away.

2626/2 (black each side) is 1313.

The various codec limits don't like odd numbers so 1312 it is.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

BTW, the handbrake dimesions tab IS bad.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that!

[pinoco]

[QUOTE=Alwyn;2720622]The original video was 1080 x 1920, or 1214 x 2160 (2160 being the height of the UHD frame).

the original video is 3840 x 2160 (not 1080p) with a 'Rotation' flag of 90 value. i am ONLY going thru all this conversion shit is because the original videos are seen as horizontal and not correctly oriented on the tv. maybe the tv cannot read the 'rotation' flag.... Converting/reencoding with softs is making the videos play on tv with right orientation (and not horizontal, with the heads of people to the left side of screen). but conversion is creating this new issue of frame being taller than wide and thus not palying on tv.
thus i am converting some videos from 4k to 4k , even keeping the codec intact and
some videos from 1080p to 1080p, keeping the codec intact.

i wish there was just a way to correctly orient the videos (rotate 90 degree) without reencoding, but i dont know of this thing.
otherwise the original h264 codec (in both resolutions) is PLAYABLE on the tv. (only with wrong orientation)

update:
so according to ur logic....
in my case:
3840-2160 = 1680 is leftover space
thus, 1680/2 is 840 on both sides
right? so now new correct number is 840

[Sharc]

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

As you prefer of course, it's one way of doing it, and I understand your story.
Nevertheless, instead of sticking to something, why not try the SIMPLE commandline in the attachment (same as in post#9 but with increased canvas) and just put your calculators and various GUIs away?
The instructions were given in post#9. Not simple enough or not working?
But yes, I am well aware when people read 'commandline' or 'xy script', instead of trying (and perhaps learning something new) they often tend to react like (no offense please):

[Attachment 76335 - Click to enlarge]

BTW, the handbrake dimesions tab IS bad.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that!

Really? Oh well .... Never mind, I will leave the floor now.

[jagabo]

maybe the tv cannot read the 'rotation' flag....

Many devices have that problem.

[lollo]

Nevertheless, instead of sticking to something, why not try the SIMPLE commandline in the attachment (same as in post#9 but with increased canvas) and just put your calculators and various GUIs away?
The instructions were given in post#9. Not simple enough or not working?
But yes, I am well aware when people read 'commandline' or 'xy script', instead of trying (and perhaps learning something new) they often tend to react like (no offense please):

[Attachment 76335 - Click to enlarge]

Sharc, do not waste your time. Pearls before swine!

[Sharc]

maybe the tv cannot read the 'rotation' flag....

Many devices have that problem.

Yes. I would assume that the ffmpeg commandline should solve this problem. I selected .mp4 as the container which should follow the rotation flag, hence the reencoded pillarboxed landscape pictures should be upright. But I don't have the OP's TV to check, so ...... I am prepared for a surprise.

[Alwyn]

the original video is 3840 x 2160 (not 1080p)

Arr, I see.

thus i am converting some videos from 4k to 4k , even keeping the codec intact and some videos from 1080p to 1080p, keeping the codec intact.

Not actually correct. If your video is effectively 2160x3840 ie portrait, then you need a 16:9 frame that is 3840 high... and therefore 6826 wide.

Also, watch that you don't get your terms mixed up: "4k" (or more accurately UHD, in this case) is defined by the width of the frame, being (roughly) 4k (3840). The term 1080P refers to the height of the frame.

A "UHD" (3840) frame is also called 2160P.

To deal with your portrait videos, you actually are converting from "4k" to "6k" (or if your source video is 1080P, to "4K").

So back to your 3840x2160 video (ie UHD in portrait mode), you need the height of the new frame to be 3840, meaning the width has to be 6266 (3840x16/9).

6266 - 2160 (the width of the actual video) = 4106

Split 4106 (black video on the sides) / 2 = 2053 each border; I have to use 2052 in AVIDemux.

[jagabo]

The TV may not be able to play a 6k video. And even if it does, it will downscale it to 4K to fit on the screen.

[Alwyn]

Jagabo, thanks for the prompt. Yes, that is the case here. Anything I throw at my UHD/4k TV that is larger than 3840 or 2160 high (I haven't worked out what the limiter is) will not play.

[pinoco]

Nevertheless, instead of sticking to something, why not try the SIMPLE commandline in the attachment (same as in post#9 but with increased canvas) and just put your calculators and various GUIs away?
The instructions were given in post#9. Not simple enough or not working?
But yes, I am well aware when people read 'commandline' or 'xy script', instead of trying (and perhaps learning something new) they often tend to react like (no offense please):

[Attachment 76335 - Click to enlarge]

Sharc, do not waste your time. Pearls before swine!

@sharc and @lollo
i would love to use the commandline if it gave better picture quality.
the most important thing that EVERYBODY considers when using video conversion is file size AND picture quality. if a GUI software is giving better file size AND better quality then i think any person will use it rather than any other option. (i know handbrake has other issues like colour range compression and all. but that is not important)
No need to be condescending just because u know the cmd option!!!!!

[Sharc]

Jagabo, thanks for the prompt. Yes, that is the case here. Anything I throw at my UHD/4k TV that is larger than 3840 or 2160 high (I haven't worked out what the limiter is) will not play.

Alwyn: care to take note that the simple commandline solves this problem as well?

[lollo]

Pinoco, you miss the point. A command line uses the encoder directly. Handbrake (and the rest) is just a front-end, a GUI using that encoder. Quality and filesize depend on the encoder. And while directly using the encoder you have full control over it, while GUIs may have hidden (often wrong) processing.
There are many examples by master poisondeathray in the forum, even recent ones.

[Sharc]

@sharc and @lollo
i would love to use the commandline if it gave better picture quality.
the most important thing that EVERYBODY considers when using video conversion is file size AND picture quality. if a GUI software is giving better file size AND better quality then i think any person will use it rather than any other option. (i know handbrake has other issues like colour range compression and all. but that is not important)

This doesn't make sense to me, sorry. Upload samples, we have not seen any. Maybe your Handbrake settings involve denoising or similar. Rest assured that it has no "better" encoder.
Apparently you spread the GUI issues now, hopping from GUI to GUI rather than listening to the facts and familiarize with encoding basics, to begin with
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/405642-How-to-correct-the-video-colour-range-tag#post2720746

End of rant.

[pinoco]

@jagabo and @alwyn
guys, my tv is not playing ANY of the border added videos. it seems the tv cannot read anything higher than 4k width frames/videos (i.e. 2160). sad sad sad. now the only option is using the ffmpeg libraries softwares which give bad result/quality. it seems the tv needs to be given 'pad' parameter in a 'aspect ratio' command, then it itself addsthe padding, cause the other working videos are NOT bordered or extra width, mediainfo shows as 2160p ONLY (or 1080p i.e. 3840 x 2160 or 1920...); only when they play on pc the padding is seen (and in their thumbnails also). so these videos have the 'pad' parameter in their encoding. if i actually add the padding (borders) to the frame then the videos are NOT played.
both 'ffmpeg batch av converter' and 'shana encoder' (the only working softwares) add this 'pad' parameter in their aspect ratio encoded command.
ffmpeg does this thru a supporting command and shana does this thru a gui option/button.

sad sad sad. will need to increase file size if want quality (BTW to get original quality , the result is DOUBLE the file size as original!!!!)

[jagabo]

Since you don't know what you're doing, we don't know what you're doing. You have been asked several times to upload video file samples that show your problems and results -- so we can see exactly what your problem is and why you're getting the results your getting.

ffmpeg uses the same encoders as the all the other free (and many of the non-free) GUI programs, x264 for h.264 (AVC) encoding, x265 for h.265 (HEVC) encoding. So any differences are down to encoder settings and other processing. And ffmpeg has better and more flexible processing than most of the GUI based programs. So if you're getting inferior results with ffmpeg it's likely you are doing something wrong.

[Alwyn]

@Pinoco, my TV will also not play anything above 3840x2160 (haven't worked out what the limiting value is yet).

Can your TV play the attached file (created using the technique in post #14)? I kept the bitrate down deliberately.

Revised attachment: