Visually Lossless Frame-by-Frame Cutting

[Jay123210599]

Is there a way to cut videos frame-by-frame with visually lossless results?

[davexnet]

Possibly

[Jay123210599]

Possibly

How? With what tool?

[davexnet]

By using the approriate software

[Jay123210599]

By using the approriate software

Which tool, specifically?

[davexnet]

For typical consumer video (H.264, H.265) look at VideoRedo, TmpgEnc Smart Renderer, Lossless Cut, etc.
Plenty of forum posts on this subject, look at some of the recent posts for other ideas

[Jay123210599]

Is it truly impossible to precisely cut frame-by-frame losslessly on regular frames?

[davexnet]

Is it truly impossible to precisely cut frame-by-frame losslessly on regular frames?

How many consecutive frames are you talking about?
Anything less than the distance between one key frame and the next (usually 1 - 10 seconds)
will have to be re-encoded.

[Jay123210599]

Is it truly impossible to precisely cut frame-by-frame losslessly on regular frames?

How many consecutive frames are you talking about?
Anything less than the distance between one key frame and the next (usually 1 - 10 seconds)
will have to be re-encoded.

All frames in a video.

[davexnet]

Is it truly impossible to precisely cut frame-by-frame losslessly on regular frames?

How many consecutive frames are you talking about?
Anything less than the distance between one key frame and the next (usually 1 - 10 seconds)
will have to be re-encoded.

All frames in a video.

I don't understand. If you're saving all the frames, you're not cuttng the video at all

[Jay123210599]

Is it truly impossible to precisely cut frame-by-frame losslessly on regular frames?

How many consecutive frames are you talking about?
Anything less than the distance between one key frame and the next (usually 1 - 10 seconds)
will have to be re-encoded.

All frames in a video.

I don't understand. If you're saving all the frames, you're not cuttng the video at all

I just want to cut precisely frame-by frame and get 100% accurate results without any quality loss.

[noemi7]

I just want to cut precisely frame-by frame and get 100% accurate results without any quality loss.

It's not possible "without any quality loss" but you won't notice a difference. The best (precise) is VideoReDo (R.I.P.) but like any other programs it re-encodes around cut frames.

[Jay123210599]

I just want to cut precisely frame-by frame and get 100% accurate results without any quality loss.

It's not possible "without any quality loss" but you won't notice a difference. The best (precise) is VideoReDo (R.I.P.) but like any other programs it re-encodes around cut frames.

I got an idea. Video Cutters like Avidemux and LosslessCut only cut around keyframes, right? Is there a way to convert or make every single frame in a video keyframes?

[usually_quiet]

I just want to cut precisely frame-by frame and get 100% accurate results without any quality loss.

It's not possible "without any quality loss" but you won't notice a difference. The best (precise) is VideoReDo (R.I.P.) but like any other programs it re-encodes around cut frames.

I got an idea. Video Cutters like Avidemux and LosslessCut only cut around keyframes, right? Is there a way to convert or make every single frame in a video keyframes?

Yes, it is possible to make every frame into a keyframe but it requires re-encoding every frame. If a lossless codec is used for the re-encode, the conversion can even be lossless but the resulting files will be gigantic. Plus, they probably can't be played using anything other than a computer. If you re-encode your edited video again to a lossy format to compress it for playability and a smaller file size, the resulting file will lose quality.

For quicker results and far less quality loss than doing the above entails, you need a smart cutter such as the previously mentioned TMPGEnc MPEG Smart Renderer 6, which only incodes a few frames on each side of the cut point.

[Cornucopia]

Look, you are either starting with:

1. Intra-frame codecs (e.g. uncompressed, losslessly compressed, visually losslessly compressed, DV, all I-frame MPEG types, a few others)

2 Inter-frame codecs (e.g. all other MPEG types, other codecs which use delta frames)

If 1st type, you can do simple edits on ANY frame, and as long as the app supports it, you should be able to do that without reencoding. Of course, for uncompressed & lossless, even if you have to reencode, you do not lose quality. Any others you will lose quality.

If 2nd type, the ONLY way you can do lossless edits is doing simple edits on a GOP boundary (I-frame) with an app that supports smart rendering of that particular codec. Every other workflow will lose quality.

This is why it is often recommended for best quality to convert to lossless, or virtually lossless intermediate formats, prior to editing.


Scott

[Jay123210599]

Look, you are either starting with:

1. Intra-frame codecs (e.g. uncompressed, losslessly compressed, visually losslessly compressed, DV, all I-frame MPEG types, a few others)

2 Inter-frame codecs (e.g. all other MPEG types, other codecs which use delta frames)

If 1st type, you can do simple edits on ANY frame, and as long as the app supports it, you should be able to do that without reencoding. Of course, for uncompressed & lossless, even if you have to reencode, you do not lose quality. Any others you will lose quality.

If 2nd type, the ONLY way you can do lossless edits is doing simple edits on a GOP boundary (I-frame) with an app that supports smart rendering of that particular codec. Every other workflow will lose quality.

This is why it is often recommended for best quality to convert to lossless, or virtually lossless intermediate formats, prior to editing.


Scott

So, I am working with regular H.264 and H.265 videos with I, B, and P frames. Does that mean I convert the videos into a lossless (or virtually lossless) codecs and then cut frame-by frame instead of converting every single frame into keyframes?

[Jay123210599]

I just want to cut precisely frame-by frame and get 100% accurate results without any quality loss.

It's not possible "without any quality loss" but you won't notice a difference. The best (precise) is VideoReDo (R.I.P.) but like any other programs it re-encodes around cut frames.

I got an idea. Video Cutters like Avidemux and LosslessCut only cut around keyframes, right? Is there a way to convert or make every single frame in a video keyframes?

Yes, it is possible to make every frame into a keyframe but it requires re-encoding every frame. If a lossless codec is used for the re-encode, the conversion can even be lossless but the resulting files will be gigantic. Plus, they probably can't be played using anything other than a computer. If you re-encode your edited video again to a lossy format to compress it for playability and a smaller file size, the resulting file will lose quality.

For quicker results and far less quality loss than doing the above entails, you need a smart cutter such as the previously mentioned TMPGEnc MPEG Smart Renderer 6, which only incodes a few frames on each side of the cut point.

So what should I use, VideoRedo, or TmpgEnc Smart Renderer?

[davexnet]

I would convert to lossless in Avidemux (probably Huffy) and use that as your source. Then it's frame accurate

[Jay123210599]

I would convert to lossless in Avidemux (probably Huffy) and use that as your source. Then it's frame accurate

You mean this?

[Attachment 75733 - Click to enlarge]

[Attachment 75734 - Click to enlarge]

[davexnet]

Either of those

[Jay123210599]

Either of those

Well I did it, but the file size was MASSIVE. Is there another way to make all frames keyframes?

[davexnet]

Either of those

Well I did it, but the file size was MASSIVE. Is there another way to make all frames keyframes?

Yes instead of Huffy choose mjpg. It's not lossless, so there is a slight quality loss.
Give it a try see if you can live with it

[usually_quiet]

I just want to cut precisely frame-by frame and get 100% accurate results without any quality loss.

It's not possible "without any quality loss" but you won't notice a difference. The best (precise) is VideoReDo (R.I.P.) but like any other programs it re-encodes around cut frames.

I got an idea. Video Cutters like Avidemux and LosslessCut only cut around keyframes, right? Is there a way to convert or make every single frame in a video keyframes?

Yes, it is possible to make every frame into a keyframe but it requires re-encoding every frame. If a lossless codec is used for the re-encode, the conversion can even be lossless but the resulting files will be gigantic. Plus, they probably can't be played using anything other than a computer. If you re-encode your edited video again to a lossy format to compress it for playability and a smaller file size, the resulting file will lose quality.

For quicker results and far less quality loss than doing the above entails, you need a smart cutter such as the previously mentioned TMPGEnc MPEG Smart Renderer 6, which only incodes a few frames on each side of the cut point.

So what should I use, VideoRedo, or TmpgEnc Smart Renderer?

VideoReDo (for MPEG-2) and VideoReDo TV Suite (for MPEG-2, H.264/AVC and H.265/HEVC) aren't viable options unless you already own the software. They cannot be purchased now because the small software company that developed them went out of business shortly after the owner died this year.

TMPGEnc MPEG Smart Renderer 6 is still available for sale from Pegasys Inc. and you can try it for free before buying,

[lordsmurf]

Yes instead of Huffy choose mjpg.

In 2023? No, I'd suggest FFV1 here.

[McMovie]

A bit late to the party but I hope this is a useful information.

Take a look at "Smart Cutter" on www.fame-ring.com. It has an ugly UI and crashes sometimes, so I often do a project save while cutting but it does the job...