Success with Firewire over USB using Pinnacle 710 box

[cbracer]

It wasn't too hard and I had good results using Firewire over USB in the Pinnacle USB-710 box. I'm very happy it all worked, but there were steps to make it work. There are some good forum threads and youtube videos which I watched, all of which were a bit time consuming to get through it all. But the easy quick explanation is what I'm writing up here today.

If you plug the 710 box into Windows 10 it likely will not find the driver. So I opened up Device Manager (something you should become familiar with) and saw an incomplete device. I right clicked and selected "search automatically for drivers" which found nothing. I then clicked use Search using Windows Update. That brings up the windows update window and checking for updates starts. Then there is a link called "View all optional updates", then expand "Driver Updates" and you will see the Pinnacle 710 driver available. Choose to install only that one only. After installation you will see the audio driver got installed as shown below in device manager. Note only the audio driver shows up in device manager. The S video, composite also work at this stage but the Firewire does not.

[Attachment 75455 - Click to enlarge]
There is also a download driver file from the Pinnacle web site which I installed and checked it's version is the same as the one from the Windows Update driver. So if the windows update doesn't work then try this
http://cdn.pinnaclesys.com/SupportFiles/Hardware_Installer/readmeHW10.htm

Next to get the Firewire to work, I followed other thread instructions for Win10 and downloaded the "1394_OHCI_LegacyDriver.msi" file. Right click that and select "install". Then going into C:\Program Files (x86)\1394 OHCI Compliant Host Controller (Legacy) and right clicking the 64 bit "Legacy1394.inf" file and install again by right clicking. Follow this guide steps 1-5 if you need details on this, but ignore steps 6 and above.
https://www.studio1productions.com/Articles/Firewire-1.htm
Please note, there will not be any listing in device manager since this is not a hardware Firewire device!! Once done then restart your laptop. Windows 11 should have it's own 1394 driver meaning you don't have to download anything, but it is not the Legacy driver, rather the standard driver.

You can check all is good by unplugging the Pinnacle 710, waiting a few seconds, then plug it back in. You should here the typical hardware ding sound once for the audio driver, then a 2nd ding sound for the Firewire once your camcorder is turned on and plugged in. Once the DV based camcorder is plugged in it will show in device manager under imaging devices:

[Attachment 75456 - Click to enlarge]

I do not recommend using any USB devices while capturing, not even a mouse. If you encounter any funny behavior simply unplug the usb cable to the 710 box and plug it back in. You can leave the camcorder on and dv cable in. There is no need to plug them in any sequence as others suggested. Simply unplug the 710 box from the laptop and plug it back in listening for the 2 ding sounds. Then capture.

[cbracer]

Oh I also tried the S-video capture of the 710 versus DV direct capture from my mDV camcorder. The results were very similar which kinda surprised me. The S-video capture files were of course much smaller since they are compressed versus the un-compressed DV .avi files.

[dellsam34]

Good write up, On my Win 10 machine the only option worked is the Pinnacle driver page, And it worked for both analog and DV. But this was few years ago, Maybe they've changed something to the positive side, Good to know. Did you manage to select between S-Video and composite with the same driver?

[Alwyn]

Thanks for that.

Oh I also tried the S-video capture of the 710 versus DV direct capture from my mDV camcorder. The results were very similar which kinda surprised me.

Yes, I've done some tests and the S-Video quality is on par with the DV quality.

The S-video capture files were of course much smaller since they are compressed versus the un-compressed DV .avi files.

Depends on the codec you use for the analogue capture. The traditional lossless codecs such as HUFFYUV, Lagarith and UT video are around double the size of DV.

What capture codec did you use?

[cbracer]

Good write up, On my Win 10 machine the only option worked is the Pinnacle driver page, And it worked for both analog and DV. But this was few years ago, Maybe they've changed something to the positive side, Good to know. Did you manage to select between S-Video and composite with the same driver?

The Pinnacle driver only does the audio and analog video stuff, along with the link to the DV input for Firewire..... but you NEED the windows 1394 Legacy driver for Windows or it will not work. If your machine did not need it, then likely your Windows had that driver previously installed. Since I installed the 1394 Legacy driver last, I would therefore assume the order of driver install really does not matter.

[cbracer]

Thanks for that.
Yes, I've done some tests and the S-Video quality is on par with the DV quality.
Depends on the codec you use for the analogue capture. The traditional lossless codecs such as HUFFYUV, Lagarith and UT video are around double the size of DV.
What capture codec did you use?

Awe yes, the lossless codecs probably are bigger than dv .avi files. Not sure which codec, it was just a random test and created .mpg files I believe. I simply used the default codec in Pinnacle Studio 26 Import utility. It was about 1/4 the size of the .avi file. It was very slightly softer which kind of looked better for some parts of the video but nothing a normal person would notice. For the Firewire DV import I used winDV because it was so simple and never had dropped frames.

[freefall322]

You wrote "If you encounter any funny behavior simply unplug the usb cable to the 710 box and plug it back in."
When I connected my Pinnacle USB-710 seemed to go dead sporadically when I plugged it directly to a USB port on the motherboard.
This issue disappeared when I plugged the Pinnacle USB-710 into a powered USB hub instead even though the USB-710 seems to draw only 260mA.
The powered USB hub I use is a D-Link DUB-H7 which has a 5V @ 3A power supply.
This may resolve strange Pinnacle USB-710 "funny behavior" for other people.

[dellsam34]

Watch out for USB version, Certain USB 3 sockets are not compatible, I have a Windows 10 machine and I can only get it to work on USB 2.0 sockets.

[cbracer]

When I connected my Pinnacle USB-710 seemed to go dead sporadically when I plugged it directly to a USB port on the motherboard. This issue disappeared when I plugged the Pinnacle USB-710 into a powered USB. the USB-710 seems to draw only 260mA.

Yes good point. Some USB ports are designed to be powered on always for charging other devices, while some will go to sleep. You can often change this behavior in the bios settings. I've come across some USB ports in cheaper laptops that can not even supply 200mA..... I've captured a lot of media in the last 2 days and actually had zero issues so I'm very happy with it.

[freefall322]

Watch out for USB version, Certain USB 3 sockets are not compatible, I have a Windows 10 machine and I can only get it to work on USB 2.0 sockets.

You are probably right dellsam34, that's must be the real issue for my Pinnacle USB-710 (not the power maybe).
I looked up the motherboard USB port version that I was using; it is a USB 3.0 port.
The powered USB hub D-Link DUB-H7 is a USB 2.0 device only, which may be why
my Pinnacle USB-710 works much better when used with the powered UBS 2.0 hub.
I hope that this post will help Pinnacle USB-710 owners who are struggling to get
it to work but are blaming the drivers and/or software when the real issue is a hardware problem.

[cbracer]

USB 3.0 should be fully backwards compatible with USB 2.0 - however there are 2 potential issues when a 2.0 device is not working on a 3.0 socket being a) the power supply is not strong enough on some motherboards and b) driver issues since it's possible some of the required drivers are not the correct ones. There are often settings in the bios to change legacy support and such with some usb ports.

[Alwyn]

Spoke too soon.

[cbracer]

Having said how great my 710 works for Firewire, the analog capture is quite buggy and almost impossible to use with anything besides Pinnacle software. Of course the Pinnacle import program has lots of bugs itself too.

I have gotten the 710 to work with Vdub on Win10 but it's almost impossible and not worth the effort. Vdub is great for quick edits in Win10 but not capturing. I use AmaRecTV with the GV-USB2 with zero issues all the time. It's been great. But I can not get the 710 to work with AmaRecTV at all.

[Cornucopia]

Because USB only supports asynchronous data transfer, things that require critical realtime timing (such as audio, but ESPECIALLY VIDEO transfer) should NEVER be connected to external hubs, but rather connected directly to the mobo ports.
And because of the data rates required for uncompressed video transfer (~270Mbps SD, much more for HD), and the fact that USB 2.0's theoretical 400Mbps is not only almost never achieved, but the usual reliable rate is more like 1/2 to 1/3 of that, so I would say it is a REQUIREMENT to use a USB 3.0 pathway throughout, unless one can verify that the video stream is already pre-compressed (which I only have regularly seen with Logitech webcams).


Scott

[Alwyn]

Having said how great my 710 works for Firewire

I have gotten the 710 to work with Vdub on Win10 but it's almost impossible and not worth the effort. Vdub is great for quick edits in Win10 but not capturing. I use AmaRecTV with the GV-USB2 with zero issues all the time. It's been great. But I can not get the 710 to work with AmaRecTV at all.

My experience as well.

@Scott, these USB gadgets have been around before USB 3 became mainstream and obviously work OK on USB 2 (post #8). The issue appears to be OS support.

[Bwaak]

Because USB only supports asynchronous data transfer

Not necessarily. Have you heard of USB Video Device Class?

And because of the data rates required for uncompressed video transfer (~270Mbps SD, much more for HD)

More like 250 Mbit/s.

and the fact that USB 2.0's theoretical 400Mbps

More like 420 Mbit/s

the usual reliable rate is more like 1/2 to 1/3 of that, so I would say it is a REQUIREMENT to use a USB 3.0 pathway throughout, unless one can verify that the video stream is already pre-compressed (which I only have regularly seen with Logitech webcams).

As Alwyn pointed out before, ancient dongles like Dazzle DVC100 or Diamond VC500 require USB 2.0 Hi-Speed. I have used both on a 2008 desktop with USB 2.0, and had no problems.

[Cornucopia]

Why yes, I do know about UVC, for about 15 years now.
And while UVC does support Isochronous data transfer, in addition to asynchronous, devices that elect to incorporate this protocol show up to the OS as "webcams". Do the devices you are remarking on do that?

Yes, some are 250, some are 270, depending on color bit depth.

Yes, you caught me out rounding my numbers, but then again I caught you out rounding the number as well, since the USB 2.0 theoretical max is actually listed as 480Mbps. Regardless, it is fairly easily demonstrable that real-world, sustained throughput cannot achieve even close to that benchmark.

Ahhh, Dazzle, yes I met the developer of that product when they were starting up (unimpressed), and my university had a few of those devices before moving on to Osprey's. If memory serves, that Dazzle (and probably the other device mentioned) are similar in that they pre-compress the signal (MJPEG? MPEG?), making the total required throughput bitrate be less, allowing it to fit within USB 2.0 data constraints, but that also means they don't ever have the option for full uncompressed quality (or if they do, it is a reduce+expand workflow which still loses quality).


Scott

[Bwaak]

Yes, some are 250, some are 270, depending on color bit depth.

Right, thanks for reminding me that these devices are 8-bit 4:2:2, so the color depth is effectively 16 bpp, not 24 bpp:

720×480×16×30 = 166 Mbit/s

Yes, you caught me out rounding my numbers, but then again I caught you out rounding the number as well, since the USB 2.0 theoretical max is actually listed as 480Mbps.

I read Wikipedia before posting, "USB 2.0 has maximum signaling rate of 480 Mbit/s (maximum theoretical data throughput 53 MByte/s)". 53×8 = 424.

Ahhh, Dazzle, yes I met the developer of that product when they were starting up (unimpressed), and my university had a few of those devices before moving on to Osprey's. If memory serves, that Dazzle (and probably the other device mentioned) are similar in that they pre-compress the signal (MJPEG? MPEG?), making the total required throughput bitrate be less, allowing it to fit within USB 2.0 data constraints, but that also means they don't ever have the option for full uncompressed quality (or if they do, it is a reduce+expand workflow which still loses quality).

There were several Dazzle versions, your information may be outdated.

[cbracer]

Pinnacle Import software allows you to select DV, mpeg2, or mjpeg (motion jpg uncompressed) for the 710. The Dazzle unit I have lets me choose either DV or mpeg2, but not mjpeg. Likely because most people don't use mjpeg? The issue I have with the analog import on the 710 is purely due to Win10 and the outdated 64 bit drivers which work fine in Win7 but not in Win10. The Dazzle shows up differently in Device Manager than the 710. Some of the 710 accessing software like Crossbar does not always find the 710 correctly. The Dazzle itself works great and I've had no dropped frames or crashes in Pinnacle Import like I was experiencing with the 710 doing analog instead of Firewire DV.

That Dazzle video linked above is great.

This thread is not about the theory of maximum throughput of USB 2.0. To correct some of the mis-information above.... using a USB 3.0 will not make a USB 2.0 device transmit better or have better throughput. USB 2.0 is exactly that and can transmit through USB 3.0 AT 2.0 speeds. There is no additional overhead for additional 2.0 devices on your motherboard hub by using 3.0 that may help a device transmit. Therefore it is in no way a "Requirement" to use a 3.0 port for a 2.0 device at any data rate. Sometimes a 3.0 port may not have the right chips to work with all 2.0 devices and as mentioned above a 2.0 device may perform better on a different 2.0 port. Power outputs of USB ports also vary. Most newer computers do provide more power than older ones but cheaper parts can also be used. So USB can simply be a crap shoot sometimes.