Seeking advice on ripping old Sony V8 analogue tape

[satimis]

@Satimis, yes, you can put the file into Dropbox and post the link here, then we can download it.

- snip -

Hi @Alwyn

The link is here;
ascoli.mp4
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/m5lkk6sv6esyw81y03pyq/ascoli.mp4?rlkey=c8wkqvyc1vvya1tqnpudp12qb&dl=0

Regards

[DB83]

I'll leave you chaps to this now. By all means teach the OP how to use avidemux AGAIN given that he, apparently, had no such problems in that topic some 30 months ago. The source may have been different but the principal does not change.

[Alwyn]

@Satimis, got that, nicely done on the clipping.

Unfortunately, that does not look good. I see poor colours with lots of blockiness and a very smudgy look. While some of that would be because of the lowish bitrate, I reckon most of the ugliness is caused by the capture device/digitiser. The video tape quality itself looks quite good to me, given the time of day/night; the colours are well-defined and vibrant and the edges, when the camera focuses, are quite sharp.

One thing that I notice is a very small artifact along the bottom of the video; it looks a bit like VHS head-switching noise. Are you sure this file is straight from your Video 8 tape?

In my opinion, I think you should go to another capture house. That one didn't do the job well.

Let's see what other posters think.

[Sharc]

Here my quick comment:
The shop could have done a better job. There are strong encoding artifacts, produced by the encoder. The shop should have used a higher bitrate for that (mediocre) encoder they have been using. Trying to fix this is pointless.
We would however really need a lossless capture of the tape for final conclusions and recommendations how to proceed and get the most out of your V8 tape. Dark scenes are always a challenge.

You should capture the tape yourself, losslessly, and then use a decent deinterlacer, denoiser, and a decent encoder (like x264).
Don't give up finding a suitable SONY videocam to play (and even digitize, depending on the model as discussed in the other thread) the V8 tapes.

[Alwyn]

You should capture the tape yourself

Read post 9 again. Satimis can't find a camera/seller they are happy with.

[satimis]

@Satimis, got that, nicely done on the clipping.

Unfortunately, that does not look good. I see poor colours with lots of blockiness and a very smudgy look. While some of that would be because of the lowish bitrate, I reckon most of the ugliness is caused by the capture device/digitiser. The video tape quality itself looks quite good to me, given the time of day/night; the colours are well-defined and vibrant and the edges, when the camera focuses, are quite sharp.

One thing that I notice is a very small artifact along the bottom of the video; it looks a bit like VHS head-switching noise. Are you sure this file is straight from your Video 8 tape?

In my opinion, I think you should go to another capture house. That one didn't do the job well.

Let's see what other posters think.

Hi @Alwyn,

The mp4 video file was trimmed directly on the original file, ripped on V8 tape by the profession shop and saved on a UBS stick.

That V8 tape is in good condition without mold nor visible damage.

Regards

[Sharc]

You should capture the tape yourself

Read post 9 again. Satimis can't find a camera/seller they are happy with.

Read his former thread. There were many occasions, but he was probably too hesitant to take a risk.
He expects for example that the seller allows the return of the device if the buyer is dissatisfied. Now look at this from a seller's point of view: Would he want to take the risk of sending the device to the buyer, and when the buyer has been fiddling with it and perhaps damaged it, accept the return and enter into endless discussions?
No risk, no fun.

P.S. V8 has head switching noise a well AFAIK, similar to VHS. It may have been masked partially by the playback device or by the shop.
http://www.avartifactatlas.com/artifacts/head_switching_noise.html
Nothing to worry about I think.

[Alwyn]

@Satimis, in that case, it's off to another "pro" shop, unfortunately. Hit the new one with a list of questions:

-What is the camcorder (best to have one with a TBC, but not essential)

-What is the digitiser?

-How do you capture? DV/S-Video?

-Can you provide me with the raw capture files (assuming you can edit them and re-encode to MP4 yourself)?

Now look at this from a seller's point of view: Would he want to take the risk of sending the device to the buyer, and when the buyer has been fiddling with it and perhaps damaged it, accept the return and enter into endless discussions?

Yes, we understand that. It is therefore a bit illogical suggesting he does his own captures given he can't get a camcorder. That's why Satimis has gone down the path of the pro shop.

[Sharc]

.... the colours are well-defined and vibrant ....

Clipped darks and clipped brights. I do agree though that these dark scenes are a challenge for the camera and for the capturing process/devices.
I don't believe that a shop will handle all these issues properly for the individual tapes and scenes. If they have the knowledge they don't take the time or would charge a fortune. Just my impression. DIY.

Edit:
Also, when the OP stated that it looked better on his TV, I think to remember he had a CRT TV. Generally, interlaced V8 or VHS video looks subjectively better on a legacy interlaced CRT TV than it looks deinterlaced on a modern progressive monitor (PC or TV). That's just a fact. And many have been disapointed by the 'digitization' for that reason.

[satimis]

Hi @Alwyn and sharc,

To rip old V8 analog tape myself has been bumping on my head for several months. I have no technical problem ripping V8 analog tapes.

Additional to difficulty in sourcing a reliable camcorder with good magnet heads, it is my available spare time. Currently I'm fully engrossed in converting my old hard-copy photos to digital images. There are hundreds of old photos, some of them turning to yellow color.

I scan the old photos with mobile phone, not on scanner, mounted on tripod and remotely controlled on my desktop computer, in technical - remote-access desktop, via WiFi or USB cable. It is a wonderful setup. I just do scanning on my computer and loading photos.

I have no difficulty in restoring the yellowish old photo and damaged photos, using online AI Photo Editor and GIMP in combination, just with a few clicks.

I can't imagine it is so difficult in restoring old video.

Photos attached:
1. Sample of yellowish photo before restore
2. Same photo after restore
(I can add blue sky, restoring the photo even better. It depends on my time injected)
(Photo captured on 1991 in London)

I have 13 V8 cassette tapes to rip. I would forget the VHS tapes.

Additional question:
There are 2 types of camcorder
1) V8 and Hi8 camcorder PAL
2) D8 camcorder PAL (some model able playing V8 tape)

Which of them shall I shop? Would D8 camcorder have better performance ripping V8 tapes?

Thanks

Regards

[DB83]

Of course, speaking bluntly, there can be many a reason why an Ebay seller does not accept returns and this can apply with other items such as DVDs etc.

What if the buyer made the copy and then tried to claim a refund ?


Of course, video can be restored. There is a whole sub-forum about that here. The 'magic' tool is called avisynth but you should use the best possible capture. Not mpeg2 (could the 'pro' have used that given the original bitrate shown in the sample clip ?). Not even DV which is what a DV camcorder would give - better than mpeg2 but that's all). Lossless captures be they huffyuv, lagarith or other similar ones.


Now I have been a little harsh on the OP. So here is my Xmas offer to him. Send me two tapes (I am in the UK) and have a Hi8 camcorder. There will be NO charge whatsover except for return postage for the tapes - video supplied by download. PM if interested.

[Sharc]

I can't imagine it is so difficult in restoring old video.

There is a significant difference between static pictures and video with motion. It's not only about color adjustment.
But you are free to optimize (restore) every single picture of a video with your proven setup

There are 2 types of camcorder
1) V8 and Hi8 camcorder PAL
2) D8 camcorder PAL (some model able playing V8 tape)

Which of them shall I shop? Would D8 camcorder have better performance ripping V8 tapes?

The 'ripping performance' is basically the same. The pros and cons have been discussed in your former thread, and you have a link below to SONY which details the compatibility V8/Hi8/D8. At the end, be happy to find one which can play Video8. That's the most important.
The D8 may offer the possibility to digitize/convert the video internally to DV which takes some headache away from capturing via the lossless analog route and doesn't require an external digitizer. The lossless analog route would however offer more freedom for post processing and optimizations.
All discussed in your former thread.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/411611-Seeking-for-advice-converting-old-V8-tapes

Also, take a look here about tape and format compatibility:
https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00026519

[Alwyn]

@Satimis, in that case, it's off to another "pro" shop, unfortunately. Hit the new one with a list of questions:

-What is the camcorder (best to have one with a TBC, but not essential)

-What is the digitiser?

-How do you capture? DV/S-Video?

-Can you provide me with the raw capture files (assuming you can edit them and re-encode to MP4 yourself)?

Now look at this from a seller's point of view: Would he want to take the risk of sending the device to the buyer, and when the buyer has been fiddling with it and perhaps damaged it, accept the return and enter into endless discussions?

Yes, we understand that. It is therefore a bit illogical suggesting he does his own captures given he can't get a camcorder. That's why Satimis has gone down the path of the pro shop.

Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
.... the colours are well-defined and vibrant ....

Clipped darks and clipped brights.

Clearly, you don't understand what I am getting at. Imagine for a second what that video would look like if it was captured properly. That would be a pretty darn good video. Of course the capture is bad, but I'm looking through that.

[Alwyn]

I can't imagine it is so difficult in restoring old video.

The main difficulty is getting the hardware set up, as you are finding! The "restoring", after capture, is actually pretty straightforward. Sure, there are levels of excellence, but one doesn't need AVISynth and/or spend hundreds of hours learning new stuff to achieve a quite nice outcome.

You did a good job on that still, BTW.

But you are free to optimize (restore) every single picture of a video with your proven setup

Sarcastic, belittling comments like that are unnecessary.

[lollo]

Now I have been a little harsh on the OP. So here is my Xmas offer to him. Send me two tapes (I am in the UK) and have a Hi8 camcorder. There will be NO charge whatsover except for return postage for the tapes - video supplied by download. PM if interested.

Nice of you!

Imagine for a second what that video would look like if it was captured properly. That would be a pretty darn good video. Of course the capture is bad, but I'm looking through that.

The main difficulty is getting the hardware set up, as you are finding! The "restoring", after capture, is actually pretty straightforward. Sure, there are levels of excellence, but one doesn't need AVISynth and/or spend hundreds of hours learning new stuff to achieve a quite nice outcome.

Yes, but do not promote a minimalist approach. AviSynth/VapourSynth is the best, all the rest is lower quality, which may be "good enough" for some, but not recommended here.

To OP, my suggestion is to capture your tapes yourself doing the appropriate purchases and learn the proper restoration flow, as you did for image restoring. Lot of effort, but you wan't be disappointed, and most important of all, everything will be in your hands!

[Sharc]

Sure, there are levels of excellence, but one doesn't need AVISynth and/or spend hundreds of hours learning new stuff to achieve a quite nice outcome.

Sarcastic again (with due apologies): .... but one needs hundreds of posts to answer, explain and advise the same again ....

[Sharc]

Clearly, you don't understand what I am getting at. Imagine for a second what that video would look like if it was captured properly. That would be a pretty darn good video. Of course the capture is bad, but I'm looking through that.

My imagination doesn't go that far, obviously
You seem not to understand as to why I mentioned the dark/bright clipping: My concern was that the next (ignorant) shop may hardly take care of such issues and just produce another poor or mediocre capture (time, money, ignorance). What is clipped is lost and can't be recovered, despite all imagination.
Doing it oneself one has full control over such issues and can re-capture if deemed necessary, or take corrective action.
Just pointing out pitfalls.

[Sharc]

@Satimis, in that case, it's off to another "pro" shop, unfortunately. Hit the new one with a list of questions:

-What is the camcorder (best to have one with a TBC, but not essential)

-What is the digitiser?

-How do you capture? DV/S-Video?

-Can you provide me with the raw capture files (assuming you can edit them and re-encode to MP4 yourself)?

If the shop can't (or is not willing to) provide a lossless capture file, you may ask for a straight DV encode (no denoising etc.) as a last resort. It's not lossless but the quality of DV for PAL is quite ok (if properly done) and the file is easily editable in post processing.

Or take advantage of DB83's friendly x-mas offer

Regarding availability of a Video8/Hi8/Digital8 camcorder: Sometimes you find it in local secondhand shops, not only ebay.

[satimis]

Of course, speaking bluntly, there can be many a reason why an Ebay seller does not accept returns and this can apply with other items such as DVDs etc.

What if the buyer made the copy and then tried to claim a refund ?


Of course, video can be restored. There is a whole sub-forum about that here. The 'magic' tool is called avisynth but you should use the best possible capture. Not mpeg2 (could the 'pro' have used that given the original bitrate shown in the sample clip ?). Not even DV which is what a DV camcorder would give - better than mpeg2 but that's all). Lossless captures be they huffyuv, lagarith or other similar ones.


Now I have been a little harsh on the OP. So here is my Xmas offer to him. Send me two tapes (I am in the UK) and have a Hi8 camcorder. There will be NO charge whatsover except for return postage for the tapes - video supplied by download. PM if interested.

Thanks for your kind offer.

[satimis]

@Satimis, in that case, it's off to another "pro" shop, unfortunately. Hit the new one with a list of questions:

-What is the camcorder (best to have one with a TBC, but not essential)

-What is the digitiser?

-How do you capture? DV/S-Video?

-Can you provide me with the raw capture files (assuming you can edit them and re-encode to MP4 yourself)?

If the shop can't (or is not willing to) provide a lossless capture file, you may ask for a straight DV encode (no denoising etc.) as a last resort. It's not lossless but the quality of DV for PAL is quite ok (if properly done) and the file is easily editable in post processing.

All profession shops here are working the same way. They'll provide a standard printed form to customers stating the price for ripping V8/VHS tapes;
Conversion Format | price per hour
mpeg-2 | xxx
mp4 | xxx
mpeg-2 and mp4 | xxx

Price Media Capacity
USB 16G
USB 32G
USB 64G

The sales know nothing about "lossless capture file"

Regarding availability of a Video8/Hi8/Digital8 camcorder: Sometimes you find it in local secondhand shops, not only ebay.

The secondhand electronic appliance shops here only sell used HiFi appliances.

Regards

[DB83]

My offer will expire in 7 days just to be fair in case you change your mind (and it should allow for sufficient time to get the video back to you before Xmas)

I am not a 'pro'. True I did to VHS etc. transfer to dvd back in the day but I always regarded myself as an enthusiastic amatuer. I did not know about lossless formats then but I do use, and still own, a Canopus ADVC as an alternative to lossless when I so require it. File size comparison mpeg2 = 4-8gb per hour, DV = 13gb per hour, lossless = 50+ gb per hour.


Now here is a hunch. NONE of these 'pro' shops actually do the transfer themselves - you could ask them to confirm that. They work on a commission basis with all the actual work being outsourced - it could be the same 'company' doing the actual work for all these 'fronts'. And the basic lack of knowledge about video formats is the big teller here.


This is not intended as a commercial and sending irreplaceable content over long distances has its own inherent risks. But if I am correct then you will see little to no improvement in ANY 'pro' shop you choose.

[Sharc]

All profession shops here are working the same way. They'll provide a standard printed form to customers stating the price for ripping V8/VHS tapes;
Conversion Format | price per hour
mpeg-2 | xxx
mp4 | xxx
mpeg-2 and mp4 | xxx

Price Media Capacity
USB 16G
USB 32G
USB 64G

The sales know nothing about "lossless capture file"

Well, that says it all. So they don't even offer DV .avi as a service. From this I would be highly surprised if you would see any improvement just by changing the shop. Charging per hour (playtime I think) also means that they run it through a standard automated process somewhere, and there they definitely won't take care of optimizing difficult scenes. Time is money. It's the same experience which you made in 2021 with your VHS tapes. Since then, the knowledge about analog video (and good equipment) has faded away even more. It's just a fact.

[Alwyn]

Charging per hour (playtime I think) also means that they run it through a standard automated process somewhere, and there they definitely won't take care of optimizing difficult scenes. Time is money.

Do you really think any commercial operation is going to go through each tape and "optimise difficult scenes"? I've done plenty of real-world transfers of mashed-together tapes for friends and it takes hours and hours, if not days, to get some sections of video right. Ask Gotmemories how much time he spends on restoration/improvement. I'll bet the answer is zero.

It's just not realistic, without either being a hobbyist or being prepared to pay a motza, to expect that sort of treatment/transfer.

All profession shops here are working the same way.

There will be someone that will do a "proper" ie Lossless transfer; you just have to find them.

[satimis]

Hi @Sharc and @Alwyn,

Thanks for your advice.

I think that I have to rip the old V8 tapes myself, putting aside digitising hardcopy photos for the time being. Paying profession shop to rip my old V8 tapes is just for saving my headache and time in shopping a secondhand camcorder.

Can I use V8 deck player rip V8 tapes? Before I came across secondhand V8 cassette deck player here. Can I connect the deck via a digitiser, used for connecting camcorder to computer, ripping V8 tape to computer. I don't need a secondhand V8 camcorder. After ripping all my old V8 tapes I can dump it.

I have experience ripping V8 tapes and done it before. My desktop PC is quite powerful connected to Dell 32" 4K display. What I need is a good device ripping V8 tapes. Also I have been planning to build a more powerful desktop PC, with AMD Ryzen 9, 16-core CPU and 64G RAM onboard. My daily desktop PC has been running for 5 years. What I need is time.

Regards

[Alwyn]

Can I use V8 deck player rip V8 tapes? Before I came across secondhand V8 cassette deck player here.

Could you post the link to that deck? I don't have any experience with them but others here do, I'm sure, and will be able to advise.

Capturing/transferring video isn't overly system-intensive. Your current system should be fine as long as you have plenty of storage space (~30GB per hour for lossless AVI capture, 13GB per hour for DV).

[Sharc]

Charging per hour (playtime I think) also means that they run it through a standard automated process somewhere, and there they definitely won't take care of optimizing difficult scenes. Time is money.

Do you really think any commercial operation is going to go through each tape and "optimise difficult scenes"?

NO! Of course not. They won't be doing what is actually necessary. And the same applies to producing lossless captures, i.e. whatch out for glitches, re-capture sections when necessary, adjust levels, etc. Forget the shop, IMO.

... it takes hours and hours, if not days, to get some sections of video right.

Trust me, I know this.

There will be someone that will do a "proper" ie Lossless transfer; you just have to find them.

It will be much easier to find a device for playing V8 tapes and doing the capture yourself than finding a 'shop' or 'someone' who produces decent lossless captures. Just my humble opinion.

[Sharc]

I think that I have to rip the old V8 tapes myself

Good decision.

Can I use V8 deck player rip V8 tapes? Before I came across secondhand V8 cassette deck player here. Can I connect the deck via a digitiser, used for connecting camcorder to computer, ripping V8 tape to computer.

This should work. Check the manual and see what outputs the player has: S-Video (preferred), Composite, SCART .....

What I need is time.

Definitely.

[satimis]

Can I use V8 deck player rip V8 tapes? Before I came across secondhand V8 cassette deck player here.

Could you post the link to that deck? I don't have any experience with them but others here do, I'm sure, and will be able to advise.

Capturing/transferring video isn't overly system-intensive. Your current system should be fine as long as you have plenty of storage space (~30GB per hour for lossless AVI capture, 13GB per hour for DV).

Hi @Alwyn,

Is it;
VR Player and Hardware
https://forum.videohelp.com/forums/52-VR-Player-and-Hardware

?

Regards

[Alwyn]

Satimis, when I typed "here" I was quoting you from post 8. I wasn't pointing you to one of these players.

Are you now asking which one would be appropriate or do you have a particular model in mind?

[Sharc]

Is it;
VR Player and Hardware
https://forum.videohelp.com/forums/52-VR-Player-and-Hardware

?

Regards

This (the NV-250 or NV-450) is for VHS, not V8. V8 players are rare. You should continue to look for a V8 compliant videocam.