Converting NTSC dvd rip to 720x576 25i to play on PAL CRT TV?

[Leanoric]

Ive got some ntsc dvd’s that I want to play on my crt tv. The problem is that when I used to plug ntsc games consoles into this tv, they would cause the picture to shift an inch or two over to the right or left hand side. I would then have to use the service menu on the tv to move the picture back.

I know that ntsc consoles run at 60hz, so im not sure if its that or the different resolution that causes the problem but Ive been hesitant to try ntsc dvd’s as I no longer have the remote or even remember what the code is that you have to enter to use the service menu.

So I was thinking, rip the ntsc dvd and convert to pal specs and burn to dvd.

Is it ok to resize 480 to 576? What about the frame rate, can that be changed to 25?

Thanks

[ProWo]

So I was thinking, rip the ntsc dvd and convert to pal specs and burn to dvd.
Is it ok to resize 480 to 576? What about the frame rate, can that be changed to 25?
Thanks

Yes, you can resize from 720x480 to 720x576 and change the framerate from 23.976 fps to 25 fps.
It is important that you keep the aspect ratio (either 4:3 or 16:9).

You also need to adjust the soundtrack and then mux the two together.

Everything can be done with the clever FFmpeg-GUI.

Convert interlaced 23.976fps to progressive 25fps

[Sharc]

If you really want to burn it to a true PAL DVD you have to author it accordingly (interlaced mpeg2, ac3, folder structure ....). Depends what your CRT TV or DVD player accepts.

[Bwaak]

Would not it be simpler to get a DVD player that can play NTSC DVDs on PAL TV? I thought these were pretty common in Europe.

[DB83]

The issue is not that the DVDs are NTSC. I doubt if there exists a single PAL dvd-player that does not have a setting to play a NTSC dvd.

The potential issue is that those NTSC dvds are Region 1 wheareas PAL dvds are Region 2 (for the UK and Europe). And basic UK players will not play them.


The really old CRTs could also play non-region protected NTSC dvds but one could come across a vertical hold issue.


If the dvds are region-code protected then if you still want to play them as dvds you must first rip them which removes the region-code and then burn to blank media.

[Leanoric]

Yes, you can resize from 720x480 to 720x576 and change the framerate from 23.976 fps to 25 fps.
It is important that you keep the aspect ratio (either 4:3 or 16:9).

You also need to adjust the soundtrack and then mux the two together.

Everything can be done with the clever FFmpeg-GUI.

Convert progressive NTSC to progressive PAL

Thankyou, Ive just downloaded the program, I'll give it a go.

If you really want to burn it to a true PAL DVD you have to author it accordingly (interlaced mpeg2, ac3, folder structure ....). Depends what your CRT TV or DVD player accepts.

Ok, so Ill set the encoder to mpeg2, Im guessing the container should be whatever my dvd player will accept? Is it ok to encode with mpeg2 to an mp4 container?

Would not it be simpler to get a DVD player that can play NTSC DVDs on PAL TV? I thought these were pretty common in Europe.

It would, and I have got a region free dvd player, but like I said, Im not sure if its the 480 resolution that throws the picture out on the tv. Its an old crt and not ntsc compatible, so Id rather just convert the dvd's to pal spec if possible.

[Leanoric]

The issue is not that the DVDs are NTSC. I doubt if there exists a single PAL dvd-player that does not have a setting to play a NTSC dvd.

The potential issue is that those NTSC dvds are Region 1 wheareas PAL dvds are Region 2 (for the UK and Europe). And basic UK players will not play them.


The really old CRTs could also play non-region protected NTSC dvds but one could come across a vertical hold issue.


If the dvds are region-code protected then if you still want to play them as dvds you must first rip them which removes the region-code and then burn to blank media.

I have a region free dvd, its the crt tv that is the problem. Whenever I have plugged anything ntsc into the tv in the past, it has thrown the picture out and I have had to use the service menu to correct it. Im not sure whether it is the 480 resolution or the 60hz that does this to the picture so i dont want to risk playing ntsc dvd's on it as I no longer have the remote or even remember how to enter the service menu.

[Sharc]

If you really want to burn it to a true PAL DVD you have to author it accordingly (interlaced mpeg2, ac3, folder structure ....). Depends what your CRT TV or DVD player accepts.

Ok, so Ill set the encoder to mpeg2, Im guessing the container should be whatever my dvd player will accept? Is it ok to encode with mpeg2 to an mp4 container?

Yes. Just try what your DVD player accepts. Some also accept mpeg4 as divx or xvid.

You may also want to try DVDStyler. Drag and drop the .vobs onto its asset area and let it do the rest, including creating a fully compliant PAL DVD file structure with menus and burning a DVD disc. I have not tried it for such a conversion, but I am confident that DVDStyler can handle it.

[Leanoric]

If you really want to burn it to a true PAL DVD you have to author it accordingly (interlaced mpeg2, ac3, folder structure ....). Depends what your CRT TV or DVD player accepts.

Ok, so Ill set the encoder to mpeg2, Im guessing the container should be whatever my dvd player will accept? Is it ok to encode with mpeg2 to an mp4 container?

Yes. Just try what your DVD player accepts. Some also accept mpeg4 as divx or xvid.

You may also want to try DVDStyler. Drag and drop the .vobs onto its asset area and let it do the rest, including creating a fully compliant PAL DVD file structure with menus and burning a DVD disc. I have not tried it for such a conversion, but I am confident that DVDStyler can handle it.

Thanks Sharc, I'll give that a go.

[Swedaniel]

Is it ok to resize 480 to 576? What about the frame rate, can that be changed to 25?

Thanks

Yeah i think ive seen normally PAL use 25 fps and NTSC use 30 fps, and resizing i dont know, sometimes it look allright sometimes it dont!

[Skiller]

The circuitry of the CRT TV differentiates which of it's stored geometry settings to use based on input frequency (50 vs 60 Hz).

[Side note: 50 Hz is always 625 lines total and 60 Hz is always 525 lines total;
"Hybrids" such as PAL60 affect color encoding only, not frequency and not the lines count!]

Therefore, a DVD-player that would output PAL60 when playing an NTSC DVD does not solve the problem because it outputs 60 Hz and 525 lines with PAL color encoding. The only solution is to output 50 Hz which requires an actual PAL DVD.

[Bwaak]

The only solution is to output 50 Hz which requires an actual PAL DVD.

A DVD player or a VCR can convert from 60 to 50. "NTSC playback on PAL TV" was a pretty common feature both for VCRs and DVD players. And no, it is not just PAL color, it is the whole 625/50 shebang.

[Sharc]

@leanoric: What is your source actually? NTSC is 29.97fps, means 29.97 interlaced (or progressive video encoded as interlaced) frames per second = 59.94 fields per second, but never 23.976fps as has been assumed in one of the posts above (or I misread it). 23.976fps would be a 24fps film which has been slowed down to 23.976fps (as a basis for pulldown conversion to NTSC compliant 29.97fps).

If nothing works upload as short snippet with motion of an otherwise unprocessed .vob from your NTSC DVD. The method (e.g. avisynth script) for an acceptable conversion to a PAL DVD depends on the source format.

If it is 23.976fps the conversion is relatively easy (speedup). If it is 29.97 there is unfortunatley no "nice and easy" way of converting 29.97 => 25 since one has to drop certain frames or fields, and/or apply motion interpolation for a smooth playback.

[Leanoric]

@leanoric: What is your source actually? NTSC is 29.97fps, means 29.97 interlaced (or progressive video encoded as interlaced) frames per second = 59.94 fields per second, but never 23.976fps as has been assumed in one of the posts above (or I misread it). 23.976fps would be a 24fps film which has been slowed down to 23.976fps (as a basis for pulldown conversion to NTSC compliant 29.97fps).

If nothing works upload as short snippet with motion of an otherwise unprocessed .vob from your NTSC DVD. The method (e.g. avisynth script) for an acceptable conversion to a PAL DVD depends on the source format.

I think he must have meant to say 29.97. My dvd’s are US, so 29.97fps.

I havent had time to do much yet but had a quick look at FFMPeg-GUI last night. I noticed that it has vob as an option for container. If I encode with mpeg2 and save to vob container, that should make a true dvd?

[Leanoric]

If it is 23.976fps the conversion is relatively easy (speedup). If it is 29.97 there is unfortunatley no "nice and easy" way of converting 29.97 => 25 since one has to drop certain frames or fields, and/or apply motion interpolation for a smooth playback.

Ok looks like I may have a problem then as I need to convert from 29.97 to 25. I’ll give it a try anyway and see how it looks.

[Skiller]

A DVD player or a VCR can convert from 60 to 50. "NTSC playback on PAL TV" was a pretty common feature both for VCRs and DVD players. And no, it is not just PAL color, it is the whole 625/50 shebang.

You are mixing up things. The claim "NTSC playback on PAL TV" was something you would find on ordinary European VCRs and it is PAL60. Converting the color modulation to PAL was all that was needed to display 60 Hz 525 lines on European CRT TVs because the rest is done via the TV adapting it's deflection.

There were proper normconverting VCRs but they were super expensive and only for the professional field. Converting the refresh rate in real time was a very elaborate task in the 90's.

There are DVD-players that can sort of force 50 Hz output from a 60 Hz DVD but don't ask about the quality... very bad. It is technically an option though.

[Bwaak]

A DVD player or a VCR can convert from 60 to 50. "NTSC playback on PAL TV" was a pretty common feature both for VCRs and DVD players. And no, it is not just PAL color, it is the whole 625/50 shebang.

You are mixing up things. The claim "NTSC playback on PAL TV" was something you would find on ordinary European VCRs and it is PAL60. Converting the color modulation to PAL was all that was needed to display 60 Hz 525 lines on European CRT TVs because the rest is done via the TV adapting it's deflection.

There were proper normconverting VCRs but they were super expensive and only for the professional field. Converting the refresh rate in real time was a very elaborate task in the 90's.

There are DVD-players that can sort of force 50 Hz output from a 60 Hz DVD but don't ask about the quality... very bad. It is technically an option though.

Ok, maybe you are right. I know that I did not have any issues with my early 1990s TV set and early 1990s VHS VCR playing NTSC tapes. The VCR was labeled "NTSC playback on PAL TV", the TV set did not have any special label. Likewise, I did not have any issues playing NTSC DVDs with a multi-standard region-free BBK DVD player.

Here, in the section titled "More information about watching NTSC video on PAL systems", Aaron Smart notes, "I've noticed that on a lot of sets that 60Hz pictures go off the screen a bit (vertically), and the OSD is stretched with it," which corresponds to Leanoric's experience.

[Skiller]

This is because many sets unfortunately share most geometry settings with both display modes (50/60 Hz). OSD stretching is normal since resolution is 100 lines less in 60 Hz and the same fonts are still used.
Generally, more expensive CRT TV sets, as well as most ones made after ~2000, tend to have more of the geometry settings separated for both modes, resulting in perfect display of both 50 and 60 Hz signals.

I know that I did not have any issues with my early 1990s TV set and early 1990s VHS VCR playing NTSC tapes. The VCR was labeled "NTSC playback on PAL TV", the TV set did not have any special label.

Yep, that's how it was for almost everybody with a recent TV set and VCR at the time.

[Swedaniel]

If it is 23.976fps the conversion is relatively easy (speedup). If it is 29.97 there is unfortunatley no "nice and easy" way of converting 29.97 => 25 since one has to drop certain frames or fields, and/or apply motion interpolation for a smooth playback.

Ok looks like I may have a problem then as I need to convert from 29.97 to 25. I’ll give it a try anyway and see how it looks.

But when you convert an DVD-Video from NTSC to PAL wont it convert it to the "correct" fps then allso?

[Sharc]

As the OP intends to watch it on a CRT monitor he can probably do the framerate conversion with a simple 'bob+ConvertFPS+reinterlace' process. While blended frames look usually horrible on a progressive monitor, they can look quite acceptable on a legacy CRT (interlaced) monitor. Just a thought.

[ProWo]

If it is 29.97 there is unfortunatley no "nice and easy" way of converting 29.97 => 25 since one has to drop certain frames or fields, and/or apply motion interpolation for a smooth playback.

What's about 2 steps:
1) IVTC to 23.967 (lossless)
2) speedup to 25

The audio is probably the length from 23.976.

[Sharc]

If it is 29.97 there is unfortunatley no "nice and easy" way of converting 29.97 => 25 since one has to drop certain frames or fields, and/or apply motion interpolation for a smooth playback.

What's about 2 steps:
1) IVTC to 23.967 (lossless)
2) speedup to 25

The audio is probably the length from 23.976.

IVTC makes only sense when it has been telecined before. For native 29.97fps video the decimation would produce jerkiness.
Without a sample everything remains speculative.

[Sharc]

If I encode with mpeg2 and save to vob container, that should make a true dvd?

For a true DVD the tool has to create a DVD folder and file structure, similar to the original DVD. Just a VOB alone is not sufficient. However you can drag and drop VOBs onto DVDStyler and it will create a DVD compliant structure. If the VOBs are compliant, it will not even re-encode them but leave them untouched (copy).

[Leanoric]

If it is 29.97 there is unfortunatley no "nice and easy" way of converting 29.97 => 25 since one has to drop certain frames or fields, and/or apply motion interpolation for a smooth playback.

Yeah when I had the idea of converting them to PAL, I was hoping for a "nice and easy" way, should have known better!

The dvd's are a mix of animated and film, so chances are they would require different methods of conversion? Probably not worth the effort and way beyond my expertise.

I did have a go with ffmpeg-gui and dvdstyler though. dvdstyler didnt seem to like the conversion to pal and didnt work at all, maybe it was something I was doing wrong though.

I did manage to convert a dvd to a 720x576 and 25fps vob with ffmpeg-gui. It wasnt right though as you predicted, the audio was way off.

[ProWo]

I did manage to convert a dvd to a 720x576 and 25fps vob with ffmpeg-gui. It wasnt right though as you predicted, the audio was way off.

This happens because there are two possibilities for an NTSC 29.97 fps video.
1) telecined from 23.976 fps to 29.97 fps.
This audio track needs a conversion from 23.976 to 25.
2) real NTSC with 29.97 fps.
This audio track needs a conversion of 29.97 to 25.

You can try out both variants quickly. One of them is correct.

[Leanoric]

I did manage to convert a dvd to a 720x576 and 25fps vob with ffmpeg-gui. It wasnt right though as you predicted, the audio was way off.

This happens because there are two possibilities for an NTSC 29.97 fps video.
1) telecined from 23.976 fps to 29.97 fps.
This audio track needs a conversion from 23.976 to 25.
2) real NTSC with 29.97 fps.
This audio track needs a conversion of 29.97 to 25.

You can try out both variants quickly. One of them is correct.

When I created the file, I did enter 25 into the target fps box in the audio encoding section. Was that the wrong thing to have done?

[ProWo]

No, thats right.
Change the source box.
1) 23.967
2) 29.97

[Leanoric]

Ok thanks. Looks like it must be 23.967 then as I had 29.97 before. I'll give that a try.