I am seriously considering a BrightEye 75

[dellsam34]

If you are using MediaExpress you don't have to worry about color standard and frame rate, it is automatically set, The BE75 detects the standard from the VCR and output the correct format and the SDI interface matches that, Then MediaExpress matches that based on SDI signal.

[lollo]

Update: Setting the capture software to 25fps and Yadif deinterlaced seems to get around the major part of the issue. Seems like 50fps works too - but not having a deinterlace filter on seems to cause really horrible picture. After this is done, I would say the image is sharper or more detailed, very very similar to the magewell XI204XE card I have, but also has a lot more jagged edges and on top of that in some views seems to have a horrible sort of wave in the picture that the Magewell doesn't have. I was actually quite impressed with the Magewell for it's detail.

I do not understand what you are doing nor comparing.

If the source is interlaced, you should capture it as such, i.e. 50 fields per second / 25 frames per second, uncompressed or lossless compressed, YUV 4:2:2, and this whatever compatible capture device you use and whatever software you use (I would not use OBS, nor a Mac, but that's me).
When you compare different workflows you will judge then comparing interlaced frames, which is not very easy. Leave all filtering for post-processing, never at capture level.

Eventually you can use a telecine VHS source (for example a movie) where the 2 fields composing the frame are coming from the same moment in time, in order to do not have the "interlace" effect on the pictures and make an easier judgement.

If using the ADVC-110 as testbench, you will compare for example a YV4:2:0 8bit DV compressed frame versus a YUV 4:2:2 12 bit uncompressed/lossless compressed frame coming from the BE75. All the rest being equal the second will be sligthly better because better quality of A/D conversion, appropriate color space and no DCT compression artifacts. But do not expect large difference, at least at normal viewing.

And finally, as we always said, the most important elements in a capture are the conditions of the tapes and the player. The capture card comes later...

[oln]

EDIT: Delete plz

[Marshalleq]

First make sure the BNC to S-Video is of a high quality, shielded and coaxial, preferably less than 3ft. If you are using SCART chances are it's falling back to composite.
Setting wise, here are mine, You may need to raise the audio level since its a balanced device by observing MediaExpress gain meters, make sure it's above -20dB, preferably around -5dB if you can:

Thankyou very much. I think this weekend will be reassessing cables and signals, limiting power sources overlapping - even things like a USB cable could be carrying a voltage. I may make a longer SDI cable so I can remove the player and BE75 from the desk altogether. A few options to try. I suspect one advantage to this setup is the issues are likely limited to S-VHS -> BE75 then after that it's all digital anyway. Will be fun to work out. If I can get this part right I'll be happy. There is one weird sort of glitch just at the beginning of the tape too - it's as though someone drew an outline around the edge of things and it remains on a few future frames for maybe a second - then it comes right. I'm guessing it's something to do with the frame sync. I can live with that. Your videos give me hope, I really really hope it's the cables.

[Marshalleq]

If you are using MediaExpress you don't have to worry about color standard and frame rate, it is automatically set, The BE75 detects the standard from the VCR and output the correct format and the SDI interface matches that, Then MediaExpress matches that based on SDI signal.

Yeah, this is awesome! For this reason, I will be using Media Express. And another reason is it actually has a better selection of output codecs with no messy settings. That was actually one bad part of OBS - if you didn't want to use NV12 it was a bit hit and miss to get a better setting. Alright for testing, but not what I wanted in the long term. I wish Blackmagic would let media express see all my existing media, because it would actually be quite a good media management application. There's an untapped benefit there, I've tried already and it wouldn't import any of those files. Also, I think this makes it into the best Mac capture app I've seen. I wonder if it's limited to Blackmagic capture devices. I see it will control digital players and such, so at least it may do my MiniDV system.

[Marshalleq]

Update: Setting the capture software to 25fps and Yadif deinterlaced seems to get around the major part of the issue. Seems like 50fps works too - but not having a deinterlace filter on seems to cause really horrible picture. After this is done, I would say the image is sharper or more detailed, very very similar to the magewell XI204XE card I have, but also has a lot more jagged edges and on top of that in some views seems to have a horrible sort of wave in the picture that the Magewell doesn't have. I was actually quite impressed with the Magewell for it's detail.

I do not understand what you are doing nor comparing.

If the source is interlaced, you should capture it as such, i.e. 50 fields per second / 25 frames per second, uncompressed or lossless compressed, YUV 4:2:2, and this whatever compatible capture device you use and whatever software you use (I would not use OBS, nor a Mac, but that's me).
When you compare different workflows you will judge then comparing interlaced frames, which is not very easy. Leave all filtering for post-processing, never at capture level.

Eventually you can use a telecine VHS source (for example a movie) where the 2 fields composing the frame are coming from the same moment in time, in order to do not have the "interlace" effect on the pictures and make an easier judgement.

If using the ADVC-110 as testbench, you will compare for example a YV4:2:0 8bit DV compressed frame versus a YUV 4:2:2 12 bit uncompressed/lossless compressed frame coming from the BE75. All the rest being equal the second will be sligthly better because better quality of A/D conversion, appropriate color space and no DCT compression artifacts. But do not expect large difference, at least at normal viewing.

And finally, as we always said, the most important elements in a capture are the conditions of the tapes and the player. The capture card comes later...

it's simple, sometimes we as technical people get lost in details, I'm not saying you're doing that, but I am saying it's a technical persons natural position to want to analyse things to quite a deep level. All I'm interested in, is comparing the perceptive visual quality of a few options - a few common and perhaps less common options that people often talk about here so that people coming to this site in the same position have something to compare. The biggest issue I found here was that this was missing. There is a lot of argument without evidence. An example of this is 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2 is talked about a lot and you've mentioned it as well. People argue about how much difference it makes at an academic level, but I didn't find any examples on this site. As we all know, a picture is worth a thousand words or put another way an example is worth a thousand academic discussions. Sure I can create my own example because I have the gear. I might be able to simulate an example too by saving something else in a few formats. But if I provide some examples of VHS, that is the golden nugget I wish I'd had. If there's little difference, I probably would have stuck with the Canopus and just had the Datavideo before it. I don't wish to get into PSNR numbers and things like that, it's not valuable. But before I do all this, I need to iron out the kinks. I clearly have an issue with the BE75 that is not normal for the BE75.

Why I was deinterlacing was because it was the only way to get a stable image. Without it the image was not only de-interlaced, but unstable. It seemed to be that whatever the Blackmagic interface was sending to OBS was having some kind of incompatibility. Deinterlacing it was the only way around this. I trust that answers your question. I'm going to use the Blackmagic capturing solution now anyway.

[dellsam34]

There are countless of examples and samples and comparisons here and in other forums, you are just not digging enough. I know everyone new comes to this forum expects everything to be ready in the front door but that's not how actually works, you have to search the forum yourself.

MediaExpress as far as I know is for BM devices only, And no it is not recommended for DV, The best app so far for DV/DVCAM/DVCPro is ScLive via firewire.

[Bwaak]

@lollo has all the links to good samples Then again, while the difference between wavy/rolling video and a stable one can be easily seen (read: the effect of a TBC and frame synchronizer), the difference between 8-bit and 12-bit (read: consumer-grade dongle vs a professional board) or between 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 (read: DV vs uncompessed) is all but impossible to see without pixel peeping.

[Sharc]

The captured video quality depends on the quality of the VCR, The BE75 just like any decent capture device does not have line TBC or DNR, Video IN should be exactly as video OUT not better, It does have 12bit ADC vs 8bit consumer stuff for more transparent conversion, .....

Not sure what you mean by 8bit consumer stuff. USB dongles for analog capturing like the often quoted GV USB2 and Hauppauge USB llive 2 have at least 10 bit ADC for the video path which leaves some headroom/footroom for the analog input signal level and "digital ProcAmp" adjustments, as far as I know.
Also the recommended Pannys in passthrough for signal conditioning ("TBCish") have 10 or 12bit ADC/DAC.

[lollo]

An example of this is 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2 is talked about a lot and you've mentioned it as well. People argue about how much difference it makes at an academic level, but I didn't find any examples on this site.

As dellsam34 said, there are many comparisons here and elsewhere, just search for them. The reason why we continue to do or ask for them is to increase the coverage through more "variants" under different conditions and sources, to extend the validity of the conclusions.

[Marshalleq]

There are countless of examples and samples and comparisons here and in other forums, you are just not digging enough. I know everyone new comes to this forum expects everything to be ready in the front door but that's not how actually works, you have to search the forum yourself.

Do you realise you often come across quite condescending? That last comment was very rude. Obviously I have searched the forum. I have done so much searching it's not funny. At some point you have to stop. And I'm going the extra mile to provide the very examples that I've found are missing. No harm in that.

[Marshalleq]

As a sort of early discussion point, here is an example in the same frame and the difference. It shows up weaker or stronger depending on the content. The left hand side is the S-VHS player into the Canopus with no DVK-100. The right hand side is S-VHS player into the BE-75 and via the Blackmagic Ultrastudio. The left side was captured with OBS, the right side with Blackmagic Media Express, though it shows the same no matter the capture software I use.

[Attachment 74398 - Click to enlarge]

You can see in the right hand side in the wallpaper the lines that have come out, also in the face of the guy blowing the balloon. The left corner of the couch in the right hand side has jagged edges, but you know what - as I write this I realise the left hand side is de-interlaced - the right hand side is not. I don't think thought that this normally shows up in an image without a lot of movement. OK, hit me with your judgement!

[Bwaak]

The right one has color streaks, sort of like interlaced chrominance, but not luminance.

[Marshalleq]

Thanks yes that’s a good way of describing it actually. That’s the BE75 unit. I’m going to make a whole new s-video cable out of a different cable and see if it changes anything. I’ve already made a second SDI cable, which I didn’t think would do anything being it’s digital but it was easiest to try first.

[Marshalleq]

I haven’t compared the settings that dellsam34 so graciously provided yet. Perhaps it’s something to do with the comb setting or something. Will have a look at that soon.

[Bwaak]

For your general amusement: Chroma Upsampling Error. I do not claim it is the same issue, but it looks similar.

[Marshalleq]

Thankyou for that. I have had an early read and it looks promising. I am thinking to myself - there is a second input I can use in the unit - HDMI. Perhaps if I plug something into the HDMI slot it may exhibit the same issue and rule out the Ultrastudio Recorder from the chain. Will have to maybe try composite on the BE75 and see what happens with that could be another good test. You've given me some great options thank you.

I might also try some earlier BE75 firmware. I notice it came with version 2.0 something which isn't even available for download. Probably I'll reach out to Ensemble Designs first. I reckon I have both the chroma bug and then the second part I posted below sounds very similar to what I was saying I see in the first second or two of a video:

'On static scenes where nothing is moving, everything looks wonderful. But as soon as something moves, a strange artifact appears. The chroma information from field 1 leaks into field 2 and vice versa on every pair of fields, and the result is a bizarre pre- and post-echo in the chroma channel. On slow movements, it manifests as a smearing of all the chroma information, and on fast movement it looks like people and objects are split into two parts – a high-resolution luma object and a low-resolution chroma object. It’s difficult to describe.'

Update: I've logged a ticket with Ensemble Designs to see if they're aware of anything obvious. I've also tried posting a comment in the BlackMagicDesign forums, but so far no posts have been approved since days ago. I guess it's a new user thing - but I didn't think I was that new!

Update2: I've now isolated a few things. HDMI signal through the Ultrastudio doesn't seem to exhibit this problem. At least not at 1080p - which I will admit isn't entirely conclusive, but it's a start. The S-Video cable I made isn't the issue - I've isolated that through utilising composite into the BE75 and the issue persists. I've also now tried the settings that dellsam34 sent (thank you again for that), which also didn't help. I am starting to think I have a faulty device - or perhaps it's an issue which occurs only in Pal Land. I seem to have a much newer firmware than what is published for download on the web site (I have 2.0.0) so have asked them about that and if it's worth trying a downgrade - but I'm not keen until I get confirmation that my version of hardware will be supported and with a version of 2.0.0 so I can get back again. This is IMO essentially a DOA - so I'll send off a notification to the local reseller too. It'll be interesting if they cover shipping costs for any repairs - they're meant to - that's the point of getting a local reseller. I am just wondering what other isolation tests I could try as well. Hopefully Ensemble Designs reply overnight - we shall see.

[dellsam34]

What is the issue exactly, those stills you posted don't show anything other than the left screen shot has blown out levels, some chroma smear, blurry details, On the right screenshot levels look about right details are sharper especially in white lines. Without a lossless sample video it is hard to see the issue.

[Alwyn]

Sounds to me like you need to do a complete setup on a Windows machine and check it. Currently, the flavour of that BE75 seems rather lemony.

Obviously I have searched the forum. I have done so much searching it's not funny. At some point you have to stop. And I'm going the extra mile to provide the very examples that I've found are missing. No harm in that.

I sympathise. It is a pity that, on a website named VideoHelp, people say "it's been mentioned heaps of times before, just search for it". I can understand that people don't want to (or can't/be bothered) to go into repeating details, or publish on a website or sticky how to do things, but they should just be quiet and not reply rather than start carrying on as though they've had their nose pushed out of joint just because yet another newby comes along asking "stupid" questions.

As I said recently, people should just be nice. If they don't have anything constructive/helpful to say, they should say anything.

[Marshalleq]

Thanks - how about you Alwyn - can you see the issue on the right hand side? I think it's pretty obvious, it shows exactly what I'm seeing when I look at it, I can see it and at least one other has already commented they can see it already - I don't see why I need 'raw' screenshots for something as obvious as that.

And I might point out both the left and right sides are not raw, yet apparently the issues on the left side can be seen, why not the right?

[dellsam34]

As I said recently, people should just be nice. If they don't have anything constructive/helpful to say, they should say anything.

Lets start with you.

[dellsam34]

Anyway, the too screen shots side by side:
https://imgsli.com/MjE0ODQ1

[Marshalleq]

Nice site thank you dellsam34. One of them is bigger on my screen for some reason. But still a great resource!

[dellsam34]

The proportions of the frame are not the same for the two devices, It can be perfected with more cropping but the goal is to point out the differences better if they are superimposed.

[Alwyn]

Lets start with you.

Touche.

[Marshalleq]

The proportions of the frame are not the same for the two devices, It can be perfected with more cropping but the goal is to point out the differences better if they are superimposed.

Yes it's a great idea. I had hoped to do something similar for video - I came across some open source software that's supposed to do it - still thinking about it - but if we could do that for a video playing it'd be quite good. Perhaps this site does it already - I haven't really looked yet.

[Marshalleq]

There is one option in the BE75 setup I can't turn on. I don't think it matters - I think possibly in my firmware it's become automatic, but I'm saying that because I'm assuming I know what it does. The manual does not specify anything helpful. That is to say that the Analog Setup is off and greyed out (as per image).


[Attachment 74406 - Click to enlarge]

[dellsam34]

What version of the control software you're using, Having that greyed out is weird, Mine is:


[Attachment 74408 - Click to enlarge]

[Marshalleq]

[Attachment 74413 - Click to enlarge]

Perhaps I shall try downgrade that software and see if the option becomes enabled. Do you know what the option even does? In the manual it just says to turn it on if setup is present on the analog input. I don't know what that means all I can guess is that setup is 'my setup' or perhaps it's some special video industry term.

[Marshalleq]

Also, just because it's interesting - in case mine is some new model or something:


[Attachment 74416 - Click to enlarge]