Noisy bottom on converted VHS tape and other things

[Johnnie]

Hello, I have converted from VHS to computer.

First I use S-VHS player and using the VHS cassette. I use the S-video (luma and chroma) instead of the Composite video, turned on the S-VHS button and 3D DNR button. But it's exactly the same as what I turned off, if you are asked me. Turned on the TBC button, slightly better video. Using the "Magix Video Saver" converter from VHS to computer. Size is 3,12 GB.

I have chosen Exposure (not Color) on Auto correction on Magix. Finish movie and save it. Size is now 1,5GB

I use deinterlace video on QWinFF for better video. Size is now 1.13GB

Questions:
*) How can I get rid of the noisy bottom of videos? Have tested many VHS with Magix Video Saver, all the same noisy thing.


[Attachment 73380 - Click to enlarge]

*) I thought that the programs were the same size (3,12 GB) or slightly better in size (3,13 GB or more) with exposure and deinterlace. Why should the programs reduce the size even if I added video on exposure and deinterlace?

*) How could I have made the settings a bit better quality video with SVHS player or software?

[dellsam34]

You just have to mask the frame or crop it and resize to a higher resolution, say 1440x1080. But you should be concerned about the jagged edges in the picture, looks really bad from that snapshot, I hope the actual video is not like that.

[Bwaak]

The noise on the bottom is head switching noise. You can crop the frame or mask it. But it is not your biggest problem - there are large blocks shifted horizontally. No idea what software are you using. Feel free to post a sample.

[Johnnie]

The software that I use is Magix Video Saver and QWinFF.
Original VHS. PAL, 4+2 Heads: https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/panasonic_nv_hs950.html
I can crop it, but I can't see the at the very bottom of the video if I could crop it.
The VHS was only playinged from Magix, before converter, exposure and deinterlace.



[Attachment 73388 - Click to enlarge]

[Attachment 73389 - Click to enlarge]

testing video:

[DB83]

Well if you are cropping the area as indicated above, you will lose much more picture than you need to do. But head-switching noise is not typically shown how it appears in your sample. Normally a greyish bar with no active picture below it.

Would also like to see a de-interlaced sample since, if your first picture is representative the de-interlacing selected the wrong field first. Mpeg2 can be both top-field first and bottom-field first although typically it is top-field first. Your sample is bottom-field first.


The ultimate choice is yours. Either crop or mask the 'noise' or simply live with it.

[lollo]

With that VCR do yourself a favour: buy a Hauppauge USB-Live 2 and capture YUV 4:2:2 lossless interlaced.

Then we'll check the head switching noise and we'll deinterlace in post-processing.

[Johnnie]

What is the difference of capturing Hauppauge USB-Live 2 and Magix Video Saver ?

Is there a settings on Hauppauge on having the capture lossless ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling#4:2:2


Hitachi VHS/DVD combo (Recording - 0001+2), Philips VHS/DVD combo (Recording - 0003-4), Panasonic SVHS with normal functions (Recording - 0005-6) and extra functions (S-Video,SVHS,3D DNR,TBC) (Recording - 0007-8). Panasonic SVHS with extra function is slightly "better" on the noisy bottom.
Deinterlaced all of these clips.

Is there some video software on remove the second to last bottom of the videos? Not crop, for that will remove all of it .

[lollo]

What is the difference of capturing Hauppauge USB-Live 2 and Magix Video Saver ?

Hauppage is an excellent capture card, the second seems an easycrap

Recording - 0001 - Hitachi.mpg

Just briefly looked this one: if I am not wrong, I have seen serious problems: pixelization, macroblocks, bad deinterlacing, duplicated frames/fields, poor quality, etc.

[dellsam34]

Some are de-interlaced with wrong field order. Never de-interlace if you want to post a sample for analysis, and preferably short lossless with no compression, mpeg-2 compression is very primitive and leaves a lot of nasty artifacts, don't help your case.

[jagabo]

The head switching noise at the bottom of the frame is typical of VHS. You never saw it when watching on a CRT TV because TV's normally overcan -- you never say the outer ~5 percent of the frame. Even modern digital TVs often overscan to hide this sort of problem.

https://www.videohelp.com/glossary?O#Overscan

With a normal VHS deck it's usually much worse. The line TBC in your S-VHS deck (and maybe your DVD recorder too) is partially fixing it. But you never get a perfect result.

You can "fix" it with an advanced editor that will replace that part of the picture with data interpolated from the lines above and below. That will look a little better. But why bother. It's not like there's anything important down there.

[dellsam34]

If the drum motor is on the top you can reduce the head switch noise as I demonstrated here, but proceed at your own risk and carefully read the video description.

[Johnnie]

@lollo, that means that Magix Video Saver (from 2022) = easycrap. Have to pay $95.90 total for Hauppauge 610 USB-Live 2 (from ~2011). Btw, Magix came with SCART, but Hauppauge doesn't came with SCART.

I will be back in a few weeks when I have received Hauppauge USB-Live 2.

[lollo]

Use Y/C signal from S-Video output or SCART output from your VCR.

Enable TBC/N.R and "Edit" mode in VCR.

Capture with AmarecTV 3.10 in YUV 4:2:2 HuffYUV.

[jagabo]

Here I used AviSynth to infill (simple interpolation from the lines above and below) six lines near the bottom of the frame. The problem is only a few lines in most frames but it moves up and down a bit and sometimes there's a little above or below the main area. A lot of the time it's not very noticeable. Sometimes it is.

[Johnnie]

nice work jagabo.
But I have ordered USB-Live 2, so I am waiting for this. Probably improve the quality of all of this. Capture is AmarecTV from 2014 / HuffYUV from 2003(!), not Hauppauge Capture software. Will see in some weeks.

[lollo]

Capture is AmarecTV from 2014 / HuffYUV from 2003(!)

Yes!

Will see in some weeks.

Post here the raw captures once done. We may help for post-processing.

[jagabo]

But I have ordered USB-Live 2, so I am waiting for this. Probably improve the quality of all of this.

It may deliver better quality overall but I don't think it will help with the head switching noise.

[lordsmurf]

I can tell you're in Europe (because , and not .). So PAL? What model VCR has the TBC?

Live2 and AmaRecTV is not what I'd have suggested, but almost anything is an upgrade to the cheap Easycrap clones with the awful included software. I'd suggest attempting VirtualDub first, use AmaRecTV as the fallback. Easycaps mess with overall values, exposure is way off.

The interlacing there is screwed, due to the software. You can start playing now, using VirtualDub and the Easycap, to start practice/test captures.

Head switching noise is from the source tape interacting with the VCR. It cannot be removed, and was hidden in the overscan. It still is hidden. The computer shows the full frame, not just visible area. If using for streaming, computer viewing, then mask. Cropping screws up aspect ratio, distorts geometry of in-image. Just cover the outside edges with a black matte, and done. Don't be anal/OCD about head switching noise -- it's the least of your worries.

[Johnnie]

Not too long ago in 2023, I have the regular Hitachi VHS/DVD combo, and it worked on Magix software, and no noisy video bottom. Now I had borrowed Panasonic nv-hs950 PAL 625 SVHS for capture for minimally better video. The plus side I had maximize it all on S-video, S-VHS button, TBC, 3D DNR and so on. The minus side is that I had a noisy video bottom. Had switched back to Hitachi, testing on same function, and also different functions. Example, I had updated and restarted the laptop, another VHS cassette, captured on Magix software, some of the endless settings on Magix software, another Magix USB, and so on, but the "noisy video bottom" is still there now. Cannot find the settings or functions, that it was before on no "noisy bottom" on Hitachi. I wont touch the mechanical machine on "VCR Head Switch Point Alignment" on youtube. But I do have clean tape, if it's worth anything at all.

[dellsam34]

Just because the software crops the frame to remove rough edges doesn't mean the noise wasn't there.

[Alwyn]

It is conceivable that the Hitachi plays that tape better than the Panasonic. Just because the Panny has all the bells and whistles doesn't mean it will always track individual tapes better and lessen/remove the head-switching noise.

[lollo]

Johnnie, the head switching noise must be there. Otherwise it means that the frame is cropped.

It can be reduced by hardware for some problematic tape, but as dellsam34 indicated in his guide, in general "stick with the factory alignment".

[Johnnie]

I can test it by watching on regular TV connected to a VHS player on next week.


I have received the Hauppauge now, so it costs:
USB-Live2 - Video capture over USB 1 - $49.90
Shipping - $46.00
Dhl duty/tax - ~$30
= ~$126
so it's quite expensive than what i thought.

You recommend me on skipping Hauppauge Capture and also skipping the WinTV v10 with Activation code, correct?

Stumbled on AMVpack which is package that includes VirtualDub2 (1.5+ Build 44282 AMD64), AviSynth (advanced text files), AvsPmod (GUI of AviSynth) and few other video softwares.

First of all, I am using VirtualDub2.
1) Video -> Filters -> Add... -> deinterlace -> "mode: Yadif" and "Keep top". Is it correct, or change "deinterlace mode" or "field order" to the other parameter?
2) There are tons of the other settings. Is there any more settings that I could deal with?
3) Capture -> Capture AVI..., and then it is playing on the different window with the title "capture mode []". Video -> Filter is on the first window, not the second window.
4) File -> Set capture file...
File name: test
Save as type: avi
Capture -> Capture video
then it is recording test.avi until I Stop capture
Warning: 1,5 min = 1,8GB

The three players (Philips VHS, Hitachi VHS and Sony Hi8) that were only normal video, not noisy bottom a few months ago. The last player I have tested was Panasonic SVHS. Suddenly all of the four players (Panasonic SVHS, Philips VHS, Hitachi VHS and including Sony Hi8) have now the noisy bottom.

So I can:
1) Open the machine and advanced job with risk. And hopefully it had normal video, and no noisy bottom in the end.
2) Crop it, and I can't see lowermost line of the video.
3) Mask it, the same on crop.
4) Live with it
5) Using AviSynth or similar solutions.
6) Looking for some other setting, software or hardware that it plays normally, and hope it is normal video again.


Alwyn:
Hitachi dv-pf7e normal combo is the exactly same Philips dvp620vr normal combo. I thought that Panasonic SVHS is better than Hitachi normal VHS, but Hitachi is the better of those? All of the four players has noisy botton.


jagabo:
using the AvsPmod GUI on AviSynth. What is the parameter you have done it? can't find "interpolation" or other things you have done it.

[lollo]

You recommend me on skipping Hauppauge Capture and also skipping the WinTV v10 with Activation code, correct?

Yes, but the drivers must be installed with WinTV or in stand-alone. Once more:

Use Y/C signal from S-Video output of VCR.

Enable TBC/N.R and "Edit" mode in VCR.

Capture with AmarecTV 3.10 in YUV 4:2:2 HuffYUV.

AmarecTV guide here: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12986-amarectv-virtualdub-inserts.html or Alwin guide here: https://aaproductions.net/amarectv.htm

[jagabo]

jagabo:
using the AvsPmod GUI on AviSynth. What is the parameter you have done it? can't find "interpolation" or other things you have done it.

I used my own custom function. This is an update that fixes a minor bug with the one I actually used on the earlier video:

##########################################################################
#
#  Infill a number of lines with data interpolated from the line above
#  and the line below.  For example, InFilllines(4, 2) will fill lines
#  4 and 5 with data interpolated from lines 3 and 6.
#
##########################################################################

function InFillLines(clip v, int ypos, int yheight, float "opacity")
{
    opacity = default(opacity, 1.0)

    v24 = ConvertToYV24(v)
    top = v24.Crop(0, ypos-1, -0, 1)
    bot = v24.Crop(0, ypos+yheight, -0,1)
    patch = StackVertical(top,bot).BilinearResize(v.width, yheight+2).Crop(0,1,-0,-1).Blur(1.5)
    Overlay(v24, patch, x=0, y=ypos, opacity=opacity)
    ConvertToYV12()
}

##########################################################################

Called from the main script with (also modified from earlier script):

MPEG2Source(...)
InFillLines(561,5)

[Alwyn]

USBLive-2 drivers only:

https://www.hauppauge.com/pages/support/support_usblive2.html#drivers

Hitachi dv-pf7e normal combo is the exactly same Philips dvp620vr normal combo. I thought that Panasonic SVHS is better than Hitachi normal VHS, but Hitachi is the better of those? All of the four players has noisy botton.

Theoretically yes, the SVHS should be better. But all these VCRs are 20+ years old now, and things could have dropped slightly out of alignment. So a normal VCR could be better, in some respects, than a SVHS VCR. That said, and as has been said before, all VCRs will show head-switching noise. If all your VCRs are showing it more or less the same, there's nothing your can do about it so you'll have to deal with it as per your options 2 and 3. As far as I understand, AVISynth wont be able to rid your video of it. As far as I am concerned, 4 is not an option. It's ugly, it was never intended to be viewed, and should be got rid of, one way or the other.

[Johnnie]

[Attachment 73591 - Click to enlarge]
Edit=ON, TBC=ON, S-VHS=ON and 3D DNR=ON on the right side


[Attachment 73594 - Click to enlarge]
S-Video Out (not Normal), and plugged on the S-Video


lollo:
Thank you for the https://aaproductions.net/amarectv.htm guide.

On HuffYUV, I have right click huffyuv.inf and install it. Close it and open again on AmarecTV, and then Recording -> Update Codec List, there is "LAGS Lagarith" on the list, but not "HFYU Huffyuv". Huffyuv is better than Lagarith, if I understand it, correct? I can see the HFYU on AmarcTV. So how can I install Huffyuv on AmarecTV? And if get normal video again, is there anything else?

Settings on other codec (Lags):
unchecking all of the four items:
x Enable Full Frame
x Always suggest rgb for output
x use multithread
x prevent upsampling
mode rgb

[lollo]

Huffyuv is better than Lagarith, if I understand it, correct?

No, is just less CPU demanding and then preferred by some (including me). But sligthly worse in reducing final size.
You can use whatever you want.

Search here or on digitalfaq how to proper install HuffYUV. If you have already Lagarith, you can just use that.

[Johnnie]

Okay.

I have TBC=On and Edit=On.
Can I have S-VHS=ON and 3D DNR=ON on frontside, and S-Video Out (right below SCART) on backside, and possibly other settings on standard VHS? or it doesn't matter?

[dellsam34]

S-VHS ON/OFF selection is for recording only, If I remember correctly, S-VHS VCRs can record based on the selection of the switch and the type of tape being inserted, If S-VHS ON they record in S-VHS on a S-VHS cassette and in S-VHS ET on a VHS cassette, If the S-VHS is OFF they record in VHS on any cassette type.