You don't need a TBC in 2023

[Marshalleq]

OK so that's the clickbait headline. Actually it's just to get a very similar question answered which is not exactly off topic. I actually think I might not need TBC, I think, probably for what I'm seeing come through from my tapes (though not all of them to be fair), the quality glitches are largely momentary and not frequent.

My setup is as below:

M1 Mac Pro 16, 32G, 1TB - Yes very nice and totally broke the bank when I bought it, but Macs last ages.
Thunderbolt 3-2 adapter
Thunderbolt 2-Firewire Adapter
ADVC-100
Presently composite out
Presently a Sony 6 head, composite only player without any kind of TBC as far as I'm aware.

So the question is really, is it possible to sort of be OK with a few glitches (in particular one thing I don't like is I note some horizontal ghosting, which I assume is lens related and unfixable) but might be - not really sure if TBC would fix that?

I've been zooming around these forums for a few days and it's going to be very expensive to get an S-VHS player and a TBC in 2023. How much good is it going to do me if the tapes are of fairly decent quality? I do have maybe 60-80 tapes.

Thanks.

[dellsam34]

Composite out of a budget VCR with no line timing correction or DNR, converted into lossy DV is roughly 60% of what you could get out of a good quality tape using the recommended setup. Maybe less for problematic tapes. Just so you know, VCR's use only 2 heads to playback a tape, 2 for HiFi and 2 for low speed tapes (LP, SLP, EP ...). The head count doesn't really mean anything, it's marketing BS.

[themaster1]

So the question is really, is it possible to sort of be OK with a few glitches (in particular one thing I don't like is I note some horizontal ghosting, which I assume is lens related and unfixable) but might be - not really sure if TBC would fix that?
s.

Probably a bad vcr player and/or setting. That horizontal ghosting ( aka Blurriness) can happen on late s-vhs JVC's using the AUTO mode instead of the edit mode which is much more clearer. Word to the wise

[lollo]

I've been zooming around these forums for a few days and it's going to be very expensive to get an S-VHS player and a TBC in 2023. How much good is it going to do me if the tapes are of fairly decent quality?

Even for tape in pristine quality you need a S-VHS player with TBC/N.R. to get the best out of them. And you may also need an external frame TBC if the conditions of the tapes are not that good.

In addition, capturing to DV is not recommended, especially if you plan a restoration.

You did not provide any sample, so compare your captures to some of the references here https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/405502-YouTube-channels-playlists-showcasing-captu...=1#post2654664 and judge yourself if they are not too bad.

[Sharc]

I've been zooming around these forums for a few days and it's going to be very expensive to get an S-VHS player and a TBC in 2023. How much good is it going to do me if the tapes are of fairly decent quality? I do have maybe 60-80 tapes.

Difficult to draw conclusions without a sample.
Maybe a budget solution would be fair enough, using your current VHS player with one of the recommended Panasonic DVD recorders in passthrough (composite IN, S-video out). Plenty of posts about this subject.

[Bwaak]

OK so that's the clickbait headline.

It is.

You could also say that in your opinion ADVC-100 has enough stabilizing functionality to forgo a separate TBC. There is a YT person who is a big proponent of this device.

Instead of the ADVC-100 one can use some Digital8 or DV camcorders that have built-in TBC. Some of these camcorders enable TBC only for internal tape playback, also some of them do not pass macrovision through, but there are ones that enable TBC for an external source and do not block macrovison.

[Marshalleq]

Thankyou all I think this is getting closer to what I need. In particular
1 The comment 60% of the quality I could get is quite useful
2 the horizontal ghosting 'might' be fixable - I will pay extra attention when this second VCR shows up what it can do
3 That you 'may' need an external frame TBC is good, because that told me that I may not with a good VCR and the references is a great link thank you.

So only thing is, I'm actually not capturing to DV on the software side, so I assume what @lollo means is that the ADVC-100 has an internal DV codec that can't be bypassed? I've read that ADVC-100 reduces colour, that it is worse for NTSC than it is for PAL in my case, but nothing about the codec yet (will look). But if DV is in the device (assumption until confirmed), what is recommended instead of the ADVC-100 to get around this?

@Bwaak your comment came through while writing this, so I think this answers the question above. I do have two MiniDV cameras I was using - I assume you're talking about some pro level device? Or this is just something I can check in the specs? I guess there's probably a list of them somewhere here. But the idea then is to remote the ADVC-100, plug the computer into the camcorder and the VHS into the camcorder via some component and audio inputs on the camera? Can't say I knew you could input component into a DV. Thanks.

[Bwaak]

So only thing is, I'm actually not capturing to DV on the software side

M1 Mac Pro 16, 32G, 1TB
Thunderbolt 3-2 adapter
Thunderbolt 2-Firewire Adapter
ADVC-100
Presently composite out
Presently a Sony 6 head

What you are getting over Firewire->Thunderbolt is DV, and to me it makes sense to store it as DV to avoid additional loss.

I do have two MiniDV cameras I was using - I assume you're talking about some pro level device? Or this is just something I can check in the specs? I guess there's probably a list of them somewhere here. But the idea then is to remote the ADVC-100, plug the computer into the camcorder and the VHS into the camcorder via some component and audio inputs on the camera? Can't say I knew you could input component into a DV. Thanks.

Yes, you can usually find it in the manual either as "passthrough" or as "analog to digital conversion". But since you already have the ADVC-100, which, AFAIK has an undocumented function to handle macrovision, I don't think a camcorder will do any better.

[Marshalleq]

Thanks, yes - it does say it in the manual possibly - I read it somewhere, not specifically calling out macrovision, but something. I'm actually doing mostly home videos anyway and some stuff from TV.

Right, so the firewire adapter - which as far as I knew was just a protocol, mandates the use of DV? This is a surprise to me. I will read up on that thanks.

I think the idea of using the Camcorder passthrough was to get a TBC, which is apparently very useful to increase quality. This is the point of my post really - I keep hearing people arguing about it on here. From what I can see all a TBC is for is to resolve squiggly lines, which I don't seem to have much of and given it's so expensive I wonder if it's really worth it. I'm in NZ and to get one I will have to import one. I will also have to import an S-VHS player if I go that route and I worry about shipping something like that such a large distance. If there's a method with Mini-DV that would be far better in my opinion other than obviously I'm not going to have S-Video connection without an S-VHS.

The only external TBC's I've been able to find are on eBay and are around $3000

[Bwaak]

Firewire as a generic protocol does not mandate DV, you can just use it for regular file transfer.

DV is what you get from DV-based devices like the ADVC-100 and DV camcorders. You get HDV from an HDV camcorder or deck. I think you get MPEG-2 SD or MPEG-2 HD from a DVHS machine.

[Marshalleq]

Thanks again, MPEG-2 I assume is the better pick of all of those. Haven't seen HDV, but assume it's just a higher res updated version of DV and will be tarred with the same problems as DV which I understand is generally a noisy, low colour palette performance. Something else to research! Yay!

[Bwaak]

HDV is MPEG-2 HD at about the same data rate as DV. The point is, you do not pick. Actually, maybe on an HDV camcorder you can switch output as HDV when playing a DV tape, but this makes no sense anyway. Each recompression is a loss. The ADVC converts analog into DV, so it is best to keep it this way. Most editing software can edit DV directly, without converting into an intermediate codec.

P.S. Here is out friend with a new video, he even suggests to share it on this forum. I don't mind bringing more traffic to his channel Too bad he deleted most of the banter on his earlier videos.

[lollo]

Thanks again, MPEG-2 I assume is the better pick of all of those.

No way. Analog SD should be captured TBC-corrected, interlaced, lossless, 4:2:2 YUV. Especially if a restoration is planned. There are tons of topics about this subject in the forum.

[Marshalleq]

Thanks Lollo, I do appreciate your help, but this comment does confuse me. Not because I disagree with the comment or format, but because the context is we've just spent this thread talking about ways to get video out with a TBC, utilising a DV camera as one potential way of achieving that given the cost and availability of TBC devices, that these devices have a limited number of codecs and then you jump in and seem to be saying don't do that? There is literally an article linked on how to do that on the site, so if it shouldn't be done why is it there?

Also, please understand I am a person of very above average computer literacy (30 years IT experience, background in audio engineering, just a hobbyist video archiver - but not clueless at all) so it isn't that I'm not understanding what I'm reading.

The result always seems to be that we 'need an S-VHS with TBC, plus an external TBC', (though no idea what capture card as so far that seems to be constantly left out, only saying what not to get). Then I look at the guides and they seem aimed at a far more amateur level than this constant advice to get TBC's - perhaps I'm misreading that somehow.
If there is no solution to archiving VHS other than to spend $3000 on a TBC, another 1-2 thousand on an S-VHS player, some unknown capture card - then that should be just stickied and people should be told to stop reading these forums.

Sorry again, this is absolutely not having a go at you, I'm just a bit confused with all the conflicting advice. The MiniDV route sounds on the surface like an actual achievable method for me, in NZ where these things are not easy to find - I've seen a few pro DV camcorders around and it sounds achievable. At present this is what I think makes the most sense. Thanks again and sorry if I sound frustrated, am just trying to work things out in my head.

[lollo]

I apologize if I was not clear.

The Canopus converters have no TBC inside. The TBC inside a Camera to be used as a digitizer may or may not be available.

The recommended approach is a high-end S-VHS VCR with line TBC (or a good VCR with a specific DVD-Recorder in pass-through mode) and one of the suggested capture cards.
If required by your tapes, add an external frame TBC device. In my workflow this last is not always mandatory, others will say differently.

However, the DV route may be "good enough" for your purposes, because provides a simpler workflow and a good quality output. But, even with this approach, the most important element in the chain is the player!

[Marshalleq]

No apology needed, but thank you anyway, this is mostly about me and my lack of knowledge in the subject. OK great so this is something I hadn't actually investigated too much, I did just receive a VHS / DVD combo unit - when I initially thought it output S-VIDEO, though it turned out that was only when playing DVD. So now, there's a small chance that using it to go direct to DVD could be good - assuming there's a pass-through mode. No remote with it so if it's there it may not be able to turn on anyway. The trials and tribulations!

The player says it converts fields to progressive, which may be a problem or may only apply to DVD - I shall run a DVD through it and see what happens and check in the menus.

Out of interest its a Philips DVP 3050 V/75 linked below. I'm not personally a fan of Philips, but it was local. I will have to research a few other units, probably will have to import an S-VHS by the looks of it.

https://www.philips.com.au/c-p/DVP3050V_75/direct-dubbing

I think this site is old - on safari the url buttons etc don't work.

[Marshalleq]

Can I just ask how the external TBC works - does it rely on the internal TBC in the S-VHS unit in order to function? Or for example if I found a good DV camera with analog pass through and an internal TBC - does that effectively remove the need for a TBC in the VHS player?

Thanks.

[dellsam34]

So only thing is, I'm actually not capturing to DV on the software side, so I assume what @lollo means is that the ADVC-100 has an internal DV codec that can't be bypassed?

Not true, among the few devices I've known such as the Edirol VMC-1 and Canopus ADVC-300 and based on their circuit diagram, The analog to analog passthrough does not involve DV, The DV CODEC (Encode/Decode) chip is the last link in the chain that feeds the IEEE1394 socket for in/out communication. The signal path goes like this: Analog in -> ADC -> digital processing (TBC, Proc. Amp, 3D Y-C) -> from here one branch goes to a DAC for analog output, another branch goes to the DV chip for DV out.

DB83 a UK member here had used the ADVC-300 in analog-analog passthrough and posted samples before, Whether it works like one of the suggested DVD recorders or not, that I cannot confirm.

Not sure if the ADVC-100 is the same way in terms of having the analog output branches off the DAC or from a low cost distribution amp mirrored to the input, This is the concern, not the DV chip. If it's mirrored to the input for monitoring purposes, that means there is no digital processing.

Here is what the VMC-1 signal path look like:


[Attachment 73202 - Click to enlarge]

[Marshalleq]

I've just come to the conclusion that my tapes are going to have to age a bit before I can sort this out. Because I am a bit of a perfectionist, I need two things I can't easily get, one an S-VHS player with S-Video out, which I think will give me the greatest improvement, 2 some kind of external TBC which will probably fix a few things here and there, but nothing too substantial. I am a bit of a perfectionist, but the reality is getting this kind of gear is next to impossible and certainly expensive - doubly so when not earning USD. So I think I will just have to do VHS a second time now with the ADVC-100 which is higher resolution than my previous attempt and better colour, and do it a 3rd time if I ever get any of this equipment. I do have some contacts and have already begun that route. I might be able to spring for an S-VHS player off eBay this shipping is insane though and basically doubles the price, all with the risk of damage for an overseas journey on what has been previously dubbed the most complex consumer electronics ever made.

If I could guarantee the quality, I might be able to justify the cost by farming out some conversion services or something - something that deeply satisfies me and I have done in other areas.

Until then, thanks for the help everyone.

There should really be a sticky that outlines the tier's of perfectionism and the reality of acquisition somewhere.

Along the lines of:
Perfectionist - S-VHS / External TBC
Pragmatist - Firewire - Composite (if you can get one and / or any other equipment as listed above) - I feel extremely lucky to have the ADVC-100
Mucho Rapido: Recommended USB capture devices that provide decent colour and proper resolution NTSC / PAL (I can say that the Elgato Video Capture did not give good quality colour and on PAL was artificially limiting the output to 480 (using the supplied software on Mac).

Thanks all! Have a great Morning, Day or Evening wherever you are! With much respect, from New Zealand.

[lordsmurf]

OK so that's the clickbait headline.
I actually think I might not need TBC, I think,

Clickbait isn't helpful.
All analog signals need timing correction (ie, TBCs), or you'll have capture and quality problems. Everything from out of sync audio, to no capture at all.

You could also say that in your opinion ADVC-100 has enough stabilizing functionality to forgo a separate TBC. There is a YT person who is a big proponent of this device.

Opinions can be wrong (based on faulty information).
And that Youtuber is an idiot -- many are, being random people with cameras.

From what I can see all a TBC is for is to resolve squiggly lines,

No. That's merely one of multiple corrections. That specific correction comes from line TBCs, not frame. (You need both line + frame.)

The only external TBC's I've been able to find are on eBay and are around $3000

Yes and no. There are TBCs that are $3k and more, and the most ideal/suggested units are in the 2-3 ranges. But if you want to pinch pennies, there are budget options. The caveat here is that each step down in price accompanies a step down in functional quality (weakness), side effects (luma changes, added noise), and other random issues (hating generated blue screens). The exact issue and severity determines price.

The main thing to understand is that you need something. You can't "raw dog" video conversion.

some kind of external TBC which will probably fix a few things here and there, but nothing too substantial.

This is not a correct statement.

I've just come to the conclusion that my tapes are going to have to age a bit before I can sort this out. Because I am a bit of a perfectionist, I need two things I can't easily get, one an S-VHS player with S-Video out, which I think will give me the greatest improvement, 2 some kind of external TBC which will probably fix a few things ... I am a bit of a perfectionist,

Wise, correct.
There's nothing "perfectionist" about not wanting to watch/hear crap quality, not wanting to punish your own eyes and ears.

but the reality is getting this kind of gear is next to impossible and certainly expensive - doubly so when not earning USD.

Video really is not expensive compared to other DIY and hobby tasks. It's just not. Everything from photography to action figures costs more. Heck, for many people, too many people, their phone cost just as much as some pieces of gear!

So I think I will just have to do VHS a second time now with the ADVC-100 which is higher resolution than my previous attempt and better colour, and do it a 3rd time if I ever get any of this equipment.

This is a viable respectable plan. Just follower through on it.

I do have some contacts and have already begun that route.

And you just met another.

I might be able to spring for an S-VHS player off eBay

Don't do that. eBay is a video gear dumping ground.

I might be able to justify the cost by farming out some conversion services or something - something that deeply satisfies me and I have done in other areas.

Don't do that. Or at least proceed with extreme caution. Your tapes are not other people's tapes. What you think you know if a tiny % of the overall problems that exists out there. There's a reason most fly-by-nights close up shop, it's not as easy as some think. Crank out a few bad projects, and you're generally done. (Only mega sized companies get away with it, because they don't care. But you're not Walmart/etc, nor should you be that uncaring, that willing to ruin people's memories.)

[Marshalleq]

Well I've sprung for a JVC HR-S9850EU | Super VHS ET Recorder | Time Base Corrector (TBC / DNR) from vcrshop. Hopefully this will be full of good fruit, rather than a mistake. I'm not sure I need an external TBC yet, I mean I'd like one and I get it will make things better, just not sure where on the scale of diminishing returns it sits. But interestingly even on the S-VHS boxes they advertise a 60% quality improvement for standard VHS tapes. That sounds good doesn't it. I can't wait - very exciting. What an external TBC will do on top of that - as in how this technically works is quite interesting to me. I get the sense the two sort of link together, but could be wrong.

Anyway, again, thanks for all the help everyone.

[Bwaak]

Well I've sprung for a JVC HR-S9850EU | Super VHS ET Recorder | Time Base Corrector (TBC / DNR) from vcrshop. Hopefully this will be full of good fruit, rather than a mistake. I'm not sure I need an external TBC yet, I mean I'd like one and I get it will make things better, just not sure where on the scale of diminishing returns it sits.

You may not need it. BTW, I would be interested in seeing some samples of your existing ADVC-100 captures. Some people claim that ADVC 100/110 stabilize image well enough.

But interestingly even on the S-VHS boxes they advertise a 60% quality improvement for standard VHS tapes. That sounds good doesn't it.

If you record on SVHS tape in SVHS mode and then play back on SVHS-capable machine then yes, you will see some improvement. SVHS-ET machines can record kinda-sorta SVHS on regular VHS tape, but the improvement over regular VHS is not as significant as true SVHS. Then again, true SVHS is pretty bad compared to DVD or DV.

[Marshalleq]

Yeah, this is what worries me the most, diminishing returns. I am happy to do some samples. I was intending to do that anyway - I have my original captures, then can do with the ADVC unit, then I can do with the S-VHS unit on top, with the ADVC unit, then maybe I might get an external TBC. I'm not feeling rich at the moment - but if I think it'll make a lot of difference I'll probably do it.

The tape I've been working with was recorded on my uncles VHS-C recorder only a year or two before I purchased a Mini-DV recorder, point being, it was probably one of the newer models. Many of my other tapes are from the eighties, recorded on an old Panasonic separates system where the VHS tape was in a shoulder bag. Unbelievably, I saw one of these for sale this week at an old camera store on my street. But as I understand it, the older eighties units used some kind of line based system and some of the newer ones used a different, maybe it was wave based system.

So I will have to provide both I suppose. How is that typically done around here - we just link to some external site somewhere?

But for the impatient, here's a screenshot taken of some very boring geese in the video at 100%.
[Attachment 73247 - Click to enlarge] I assume just playing it, leaving it at original size and screenshotting it is fairly accurate, but perhaps I should use a capture in the tool - which doesn't seem to exist for VLC.

If anyone knows any good tools to do a sort of mux some matching time based videos into a side by side comparison, that would be great, as I've never done that before. Thanks.

[Marshalleq]

Probably the best video I've seen on TBC so far. Because it seems to begin to cover the foundations without which I struggle to understand everything after. I don't personally just accept information, I like to understand why.

@lordsmurf - perhaps this should be in the links somewhere? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW72NUA62FE

[Brad]

How is that typically done around here - we just link to some external site somewhere?

[...]

If anyone knows any good tools to do a sort of mux some matching time based videos into a side by side comparison, that would be great, as I've never done that before.

I know that some people like to create side-by-side comparisons in their favourite NLE, but I personally find individual "raw" attachments much more useful.

On Windows, how to attach an AVI sample directly to the forum:

1. Download VirtualDub.
2. Open one of the AVI files you captured using the DV (Firewire) method.
3. Change settings. Video -> Direct Stream Copy. Audio -> No audio.
4. Identify a good sample section* that lasts less than 30 seconds (under 10 seconds would be better). Mark In & Out points using the HOME and END keys on your keyboard or the black arrows immediately to the left of the frame counter (bottom of window).
5. File -> Save as AVI.
6. Attach directly to the forum when you reply here. There is a button labelled Upload files/Manage attachments. If your file is over 200MB, don't post it. You did something wrong in that case.

* For this sample I would like to see a shot of outdoors, in sunlight. Ideally with a portion of dark shadow details. Perhaps some brightly-saturated colors like red, orange.

On Mac and Linux, I think Avidemux should work with a similar process (choosing "Copy" for Video and Audio; outputting to a container such as MKV, MOV, AVI depending on preference). I should be able to test later and provide instructions.

In terms of checking how well your ADVC-100 is handling tape wiggles, the best material is a steady shot of something with black-and-white vertical-running lines (bright lamp posts against a dark background, large letters "I" and "T", etc.).

[Bwaak]

Unbelievably, I saw one of these for sale this week at an old camera store on my street. But as I understand it, the older eighties units used some kind of line based system and some of the newer ones used a different, maybe it was wave based system.

They are all more or less the same, from 1976 to 2016. VHS tapes can be played on SVHS machines. SVHS tapes cannot be played on regular VHS machines, but can be played on an SQPB VHS machine. Not all VHS machines that can play SVHS are marked with SQPB moniker. You may be confusing domestic systems with professional ones like Betacam/BetacamSP and M/MII.

But for the impatient, here's a screenshot taken of some very boring geese in the video at 100%.
[Attachment 73247 - Click to enlarge]

Judging by the straight left edge, looks pretty good to me.

[dellsam34]

What an external TBC will do on top of that - as in how this technically works is quite interesting to me. I get the sense the two sort of link together, but could be wrong.

A frame TBC supposed to be transparent, it has no bearing on the visual quality, But if you have a problematic tape or a low end VCR that causes frame sync issues to the capture card and/or the capture software, an external frame TBC helps them by providing them with a clean frame timing (a.k.a VBI, Vertical Blanking Intervals).

If you record on SVHS tape in SVHS mode and then play back on SVHS-capable machine then yes, you will see some improvement. SVHS-ET machines can record kinda-sorta SVHS on regular VHS tape, but the improvement over regular VHS is not as significant as true SVHS. Then again, true SVHS is pretty bad compared to DVD or DV.

No, Playing back a VHS tape in a S-VHS machine has Absolutely nothing to do with the S-VHS mode, It has everything to do with how the luma and chroma (Y-C) signals get processed, Unlike composite out from a low budget VCR, Y and C in a high end S-VHS machine kept separated and output via the Y-C socket (S-Video) - as in separated video not super video. This results in a much improved chroma in terms of less red and blue noise, less smear, less dot crawl, less flicker and more stability. Also a slightly sharper and more dynamic luma Y due to little to no interference from the chroma signal C.

[Marshalleq]

So after buying an S-VHS player with TBC as directed here, I find this other thread with lordsmurf saying it should be turned off if you have an external TBC. Huh? Should I have just gotten a player without TBC after all?

Thanks.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/389641-VHS-Record-Chain

[dellsam34]

Only if used with a DVD recorder in passthrough, You miss read that post.

[Alwyn]

But as I understand it, the older eighties units used some kind of line based system and some of the newer ones used a different, maybe it was wave based system.

I did all my videoing in the 80s with a shoulder-carried full-size VHS recorder. No problems at all processing those tapes today with the standard VCR-ES15-(Frame TBC)-digitiser workflow.