Capturing using just a Firewire HDD?

[plehoediv]

I had an intriguing idea...

Whenever I plug an external HDD into my computer, I usually initiate a file transfer by copying something from my PC and then pasting it onto the HDD. That's common knowledge. But here's the interesting part: What if I were to connect a firewire HDD to a camcorder and simply hit play? Since the signal comes out through the firewire port, and firewire is essentially data, wouldn't the external HDD just "capture" the footage?

Thanks.

[DB83]

No.

Where is the file system between the camcorder and the HDD to store the stream in a readable format ?

[Cornucopia]

And where is the application program directing both devices in concert?


Scott

[dellsam34]

You can do that with a video recorder, They made some firewire video recorders back in the day, A HDD alone won't save the data stream it needs a brain to tell it to.

[plehoediv]

No.

Where is the file system between the camcorder and the HDD to store the stream in a readable format ?

You, and everyone else is absolutely right, and I must admit I overlooked the fact that the PC has the operating system. It seems so obvious now – my bad! Thank you for pointing that out.

[plehoediv]

You can do that with a video recorder, They made some firewire video recorders back in the day, A HDD alone won't save the data stream it needs a brain to tell it to.

I'm aware that they produced such devices in the past, which is precisely why I'm interested in creating my own. However, I want to build a modern version, not one from years ago – something that accepts SD cards and is not antiquated, like those 20-year-old models that are being sold for $400 on eBay. It's time for a more updated and cost-effective solution, ha ha.

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/195026756655?hash=item2d6880242f:g:FFMAAOSwYxJgZ6dt

Look at that price!!! How is there no one with enough "know how" out there to make one of these? Some electronics NERD, and I do not mean that in a negative way. : )

[dellsam34]

They do make modern versions but not with the outdated firewire port, They are SDI and HDMI nowadays, Still expensive though. There isn't any cheaper than a computer and Sclive, trust me.

[plehoediv]

They do make modern versions but not with the outdated firewire port, They are SDI and HDMI nowadays, Still expensive though. There isn't any cheaper than a computer and Sclive, trust me.

I know but you can't just go from to Firewire to SDI or HDMI. Right. So, they are not really the same. So, if you have a Sony VX1000 or any other camera with firewire out, you need either a firewire recorder or try s-video to HDMI and use one of those devices you have mentioned. That is why I am going to try a Raspberry PI and see what happens.

Thanks.

[dellsam34]

Yes, that's why I said they "made" firewire recorders, The firewire port is dead now and so do the recorders, Don't expect someone to make one in the future. But transferring DV tapes via firewire is the best way, any other method involves S-Video or HDMI will incur a loss, Dumping the tape content to HDD via a firewire port is lossless (despite DV being lossy) but you get exactly what's on the tape copied over to hard drive, kind of like when you copy a DVD or a CD into a disc image onto the hard drive.

[Cornucopia]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/195026756655?hash=item2d6880242f:g:FFMAAOSwYxJgZ6dt

Look at that price!!! How is there no one with enough "know how" out there to make one of these? Some electronics NERD, and I do not mean that in a negative way. : )

Yes there are people out there, but time is money, effort is money, skill is money. It takes time, effort and skill, and capital to make what you are asking, and for such a small niche market (YOU &?) it is totally expected that a product would be expensive in order for the maker to make back the return on their investment. Surely you don't expect things to be created for you for free?!

Btw, that price for that device was ALWAYS up there, even when it came out. I had a colleague who owned 2 of them, and used them all the time for cam business up until he graduated to P2 HD cams in 2006/7. But that device isn't just a hdd/ssd, it has a converter/encoder built-in along with a controlling app, making this equivalent to a high performance, rock solid, mission critical mini computer in a specialty pro market, hence the reason for the cost.

Sure seems you've already been given the best advice, but it is too dear for you to admit it. Just saying.

Scott

[dellsam34]

Datavideo made some affordable ones, with cosmetic issues you can get one for really cheap, Not sure though how it handles firewire stream.

[plehoediv]

Yes, that's why I said they "made" firewire recorders,

Copy that.

The firewire port is dead now and so do the recorders, Don't expect someone to make one in the future.

I understand that Firewire is dead, and I don't expect someone to make one in the future. That is why I would like to make my own.

But transferring DV tapes via firewire is the best way, any other method involves S-Video or HDMI will incur a loss, Dumping the tape content to HDD via a firewire port is lossless (despite DV being lossy) but you get exactly what's on the tape copied over to hard drive, kind of like when you copy a DVD or a CD into a disc image onto the hard drive.

And that is exactly the reason why I would like to build such a device.

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

Using quotes doesn't work sometimes...

[plehoediv]

[QUOTE=Cornucopia;2699678]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/195026756655?hash=item2d6880242f:g:FFMAAOSwYxJgZ6dt

Look at that price!!! How is there no one with enough "know how" out there to make one of these? Some electronics NERD, and I do not mean that in a negative way. : )

Yes there are people out there, but time is money, effort is money, skill is money.

Correct.

It takes time, effort and skill, and capital to make what you are asking, and for such a small niche market (YOU &?)

I see a bunch of people on YouTube using old Camcorders without tape. Some use such a device like the Sony and others use other capture devices. So, no, I cannot tell exactly how many people would buy something like this new, but I would think a few hundred. Maybe.

it is totally expected that a product would be expensive in order for the maker to make back the return on their investment.

I am confident that having this device manufactured by a company would likely incur substantial costs since they operate to make profits – that's the essence of running a business. However, what if an individual shares the same passion for the project, like me, and also happens to be an electrical engineer? Such a person may find joy in building the device in their spare time. It seems reasonable to think this way. After all, I invest my time in researching and engaging in online forums, so why couldn't they also invest their time, especially if they genuinely love the project?

Surely you don't expect things to be created for you for free?!

I have no expectations regarding this project. As I mentioned earlier, if I can dedicate my time to it without charge, there's a possibility that someone else who shares a genuine love for the project might also volunteer their time. However, I want to make something clear: I don't mind receiving free items or services from a business or a similar entity. Nevertheless, I feel uncomfortable when people offer their services for free to me personally because it makes me feel like I'm taking advantage of them. I wouldn't have any reservations about compensating someone for their efforts, even though it might not be considered payment for their work. It seems illogical to avoid hiring a company to build this due to high costs and then offer the same amount of money to an engineer who is passionate about the project.

Btw, that price for that device was ALWAYS up there, even when it came out.

In hindsight, I should have expressed myself better. To clarify, I don't actually consider it expensive. My hesitation is more due to my frugality, and additionally, having something newer would be appealing to me.

I had a colleague who owned 2 of them, and used them all the time for cam business up until he graduated to P2 HD cams in 2006/7. But that device isn't just a hdd/ssd, it has a converter/encoder built-in along with a controlling app, making this equivalent to a high performance, rock solid, mission critical mini computer in a specialty pro market, hence the reason for the cost.

I was completely unaware of its capabilities! Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Fortunately, this should simplify my project since I don't require all of those features.

Sure seems you've already been given the best advice, but it is too dear for you to admit it. Just saying.

I seem to have missed the part where I received the "best advice." I was under the impression that we were simply engaged in a genuine discussion about building a device similar to the Sony product.

Anyhow, that's for the input Scott.


Frank Castle (my online fake name, if that is OK?)

[plehoediv]

BTW, I am not as sophisticated as I sound. I write my reply and then give it to chapgt and "it" does its thing, if you know what I mean. LOL.

That is what I wrote and here is how ChatGPT rewrote it:

By the way, I might not be as sophisticated as my tone suggests. What I do is compose my response and then hand it over to ChatGPT to work its magic – if you catch my drift. Laugh out loud!

Thanks.

[Cornucopia]

You DO require those features. You need not only storage, but a way to control the transfer, and possibly the encoding as well (depending on how the cam outputs it signal over firewire). That is not inconsequential.

The "best advice" part was those that said to use a PC that had a firewire port on it (in the previous thread). It may not be as portable as you'd like, but then neither are those Firestores* (which are often almost 2x the stated size due to battery requirements - necessitating a cable to a belt attachment setup), or neither would be a modded/outboarded R-Pi. Why would an Laptop (with built-in Firewire) be that much more cumbersome?

BTW, IIWY, I'd take more of what you see on YT demos with a grain of salt.

*Those Firestores also are using HDDs that store 40GB or 100GB max. And unless you have specific models like the HVX200 (not the one you mentioned), you will STILL need to have a tape in the cam and record on it while recording on the drive (aka "SyncroSlave" mode).

Also, after all is said and done, upgrading your cam to something newer, HiDef & solidstate doesn't seem like a bad alternative.


Scott

[dellsam34]

And that is exactly the reason why I would like to build such a device.

You can build your own but you would have to have the skills and the tools to design and manufacture a chip, or at the very least design a circuit board based on an existing FPGA chip and write the code for its functionality, If you do have these skills we need you in vhs-decode section.

[plehoediv]

And that is exactly the reason why I would like to build such a device.

You can build your own but you would have to have the skills and the tools to design and manufacture a chip, or at the very least design a circuit board based on an existing FPGA chip and write the code for its functionality, If you do have these skills we need you in vhs-decode section.

I do not have those skills. Sorry.

[plehoediv]

[QUOTE=Cornucopia;2699793]You DO require those features. You need not only storage, but a way to control the transfer, and possibly the encoding as well (depending on how the cam outputs it signal over firewire). That is not inconsequential.

The "best advice" part was those that said to use a PC that had a firewire port on it (in the previous thread).

Oh, that part. Where I ask to go on a cruise but instead rent a paddle board. Yeah, makes sense.

It may not be as portable as you'd like, but then neither are those Firestores* (which are often almost 2x the stated size due to battery requirements - necessitating a cable to a belt attachment setup),

I don't think I even considered those. Or did I? I really don't think so.

or neither would be a modded/outboarded R-Pi.

We won't know until I build one. I guess.

Why would an Laptop (with built-in Firewire) be that much more cumbersome?

You tell me... the next time you check your grocery list on your laptop when at Walmart, ha ha.

BTW, IIWY, I'd take more of what you see on YT demos with a grain of salt.

Ok...

*Those Firestores also are using HDDs that store 40GB or 100GB max. And unless you have specific models like the HVX200 (not the one you mentioned), you will STILL need to have a tape in the cam and record on it while recording on the drive (aka "SyncroSlave" mode).

Again. I don't think I even mentioned those. I am talking about the Sony one.

Also, after all is said and done, upgrading your cam to something newer, HiDef & solidstate doesn't seem like a bad alternative.

You: Listen Jerry [Seinfeld] I understand you like Porsche, but you really don't have to pay 1.2 million for this old one. Just buy a new one!

Jerry Seinfeld: Man, I never thought of that! That is a great idea! Thank you.

EDIT: Apologies for the change in tone, but please refrain from making such suggestions in the future; they seem impractical. By the way, I am well acquainted with the latest camera technology, from DSLRs to GoPros, Camcorders, and even foldable phones. So, new technology is well within my familiarity and capabilities.

[Cornucopia]

I was just following your lead, since you linked to that item in ebay. Sounded like you were considering its ilk even if not that particular model,brand. Btw, the sony is a poor imitation.

Yeah, there is the cumbersome factor, but all that stems from the fact that you are wanting to create this Rube Goldberg device (without previous attempts on your part?) all in an effort to make 3 left turns just to avoid making a simple right turn. Glad you're aware of the options, so I have done my part.

Your analogy of the grocery store is disingenuous, but also shows you are not perceiving these technologies in their proper timeframe. 2023-we would use a smartphone at the grocery store, like everyone else. 2003-we could have brought a laptop to the store (and yes, I have seen a few there in my time), but more likely would have used that laptop to print out a paper list (or used a DV tape, getting back to our topic). On the idea of bulking up a cam rig, I guess I am open to more options there, considering my pro background.

So, putting aside all the unnecessary snark and razzing, you now know how to proceed, right? It's your project, even if I feel you are painting yourself into a corner. I'm out.


Scott

[dellsam34]

I do not have those skills. Sorry.

Then you can't build one, Just buy an old firewire recorder like the one I linked above and call it a day, These things come and go on ebay, if you miss the listing chances are you're not going to see it again because it will head out to the dumpster.

[dellsam34]

Datavideo makes a small hard drive recorder DN-200, I looked up the manuals and they do actually record straight from the camcorder via firewire in DV, HDV and DVCPro in PAL and NTSC and surprisingly HDV supports both 720p and 1080i.
The only thing you can modify is adding a 12V Li-ion battery pack so it will be autonomous if used with a camcorder for transferring tapes at other people's houses in case you don't want to mess with power cables.

[plehoediv]

[QUOTE=Cornucopia;2699888]

I was just following your lead, since you linked to that item in ebay. Sounded like you were considering its ilk even if not that particular model,brand. Btw, the sony is a poor imitation.

I guess I did mention it, my bad.

Yeah, there is the cumbersome factor, but all that stems from the fact that you are wanting to create this Rube Goldberg device

How so? You never sat there and wish they brought back this or that product again, if they didn't, you felt like making one by yourself?

(without previous attempts on your part?)

Since I know zero about electronics, how can I attempt to build one these? I am like Steve Jobs. I find people that can.

all in an effort to make 3 left turns just to avoid making a simple right turn. Glad you're aware of the options, so I have done my part.

If you see it that way...

Your analogy of the grocery store is disingenuous, but also shows you are not perceiving these technologies in their proper timeframe.

That is because my analogy had nothing to do with time.

2023-we would use a smartphone at the grocery store, like everyone else.

True, but you are not going to drag your laptop with because you phone battery is dead. Right. So why would I drag a laptop with me if I can either buy a Sony HVR-MRC1 or make one, or have one made for me? I mean, those things were made probably for the same reason.

2003-we could have brought a laptop to the store (and yes, I have seen a few there in my time)

You know why you said, "could have"? Because pretty much no one ever did. Besides some whack job. And you know why they didn't? Because they are too big! Which is exactly what I am saying. So you are essentially saying the same thing.

, but more likely would have used that laptop to print out a paper list (or used a DV tape, getting back to our topic).

So why were they printing out a shopping list instead of taking their laptop? BECAUSE IT IS TOO BIG...

On the idea of bulking up a cam rig, I guess I am open to more options there, considering my pro background.

If you are used to dragging Steadicams around, it makes no difference to you, I can see that. As someone like me, who just sits here and has nothing better to do other than to come up with "stupid" ideas, it sounds like a bad idea to drag a laptop around just so I can record on it.

So, putting aside all the unnecessary snark and razzing,

You started it...

you now know how to proceed, right? It's your project, even if I feel you are painting yourself into a corner. I'm out.

Copy that. Thanks for your input.

[plehoediv]

I do not have those skills. Sorry.

Then you can't build one, Just buy an old firewire recorder like the one I linked above and call it a day, These things come and go on ebay, if you miss the listing chances are you're not going to see it again because it will head out to the dumpster.

Although I lack the ability to construct one myself, I am confident that I can locate someone capable of fulfilling this task on my behalf. I firmly reject the notion that there is no individual who finds this idea exceptional and is enthusiastic about effortlessly building it.

Kind of like Steve Jobs. I guess.

[plehoediv]

Datavideo makes a small hard drive recorder DN-200, I looked up the manuals and they do actually record straight from the camcorder via firewire in DV, HDV and DVCPro in PAL and NTSC and surprisingly HDV supports both 720p and 1080i.
The only thing you can modify is adding a 12V Li-ion battery pack so it will be autonomous if used with a camcorder for transferring tapes at other people's houses in case you don't want to mess with power cables.

Nice find! Thank you! Maybe I should buy it and reverse engineer it... and by "I", I mean someone else. ha ha.

[Moody_Blues]

Get a Firewire PCIE card for $20. Put it in your PC and use Scenalyzer. Done.

[plehoediv]

Get a Firewire PCIE card for $20. Put it in your PC and use Scenalyzer. Done.

Looking for a mobile solution.

[dellsam34]

No, no one is going to do it for you for peanuts, I'm confident and 1000% sure, it's pipe dream that makes you feel good nothing more. Coding and PCB design costs thousands of dollars a project, How do I know? I'm designing a product (irrelevant to the discussion), He charged me almost $4000 for a small PCB and it's firmware. A project like the one you're looking for will be around $10k to $20k and depends if the guy has the full documentation of the firewire protocols since it's an outdated technology. If $200 is too much for you than don't even think about making one from scratches.

[plehoediv]

No, no one is going to do it for you for peanuts, I'm confident and 1000% sure, it's pipe dream that makes you feel good nothing more. Coding and PCB design costs thousands of dollars a project, How do I know? I'm designing a product (irrelevant to the discussion), He charged me almost $4000 for a small PCB and it's firmware. A project like the one you're looking for will be around $10k to $20k and depends if the guy has the full documentation of the firewire protocols since it's an outdated technology. If $200 is too much for you than don't even think about making one from scratches.

Let me clarify the situation:

In various other discussions, I've been primarily focused on creating a project using a Raspberry Pi. While I did mention the Raspberry Pi in this conversation, it's easy to get confused since we're also discussing a Sony-like device. To be clear, my intention is to create this project using a Raspberry Pi.

When I mentioned "someone is going to do it for me," I meant someone who is interested in the idea and would like to build a similar project for themselves. They can then share their process and experience. I understand that this would not be a free service, and I'm willing to pay someone for their efforts. However, it's important to note that the payment won't be equivalent to what a business would charge since that defeats the purpose of a community-driven project. Otherwise, I could simply hire a company to do it for me.

On the other hand, there are individuals who are knowledgeable in creating such projects and often build their own things. While the chances of finding someone willing to create a Firewire/Thunderbolt Recorder like this are low, it's not impossible. Perhaps someone might find the idea appealing and decide to undertake the project. Alternatively, they might come up with a more convenient "add-on" device that can transform any external HDD into a Firewire/Thunderbolt Recorder. It's an interesting thought!

By the way, I'd love to know more about what you're working on, (you can PM me) if you don't mind sharing. It could be relevant in case I decide to hire for future projects.

Thanks.