JVC SVHS-C GR-SXM260U Camcorder vs Panasonic PV-S4670->DMR-ES15 capture

[lovethisnation]

I gotta say I am quite confused as to the hate that camcorders get for capturing projects. Hear me out.

So I bought the JVC SVHS-C GR-SXM260U camcorder about a month ago to transfer my VHS-C home family video tapes. I’ve done research on these forums after I made the purchase and I realized that perhaps I didn’t make a great choice by purchasing this JVC camcorder with a built in TBC because they are not built to par like other VCR with TBCs or even a decent non TBC VCR in combination with the Panasonic DMR-ES10/15 as passthrough device. After transferring a few tapes using the camcorder (which btw I thought they were pretty decent stable transfers), I got tired of watching my transfers with the stupid time stamp and “TBC” marker that the camcorder has and I have no way of disabling it on playback (because of some manufacturer ridiculous choice) **, so I decided to purchase an affordable decent Panasonic DMR-ES15 and a Panasonic PV-S4670 SVHS VCR from 1996. I made such choice because I don’t have money growing on trees to spend $700+ on a VCR. I have about 75 tapes to capture and they’re all VHS-C’s, some recorded SP and some EP.

Now what is really interesting is this. The latest S4670->ES15 transfers works great. I have stable tracking and decent picture quality. However, here is the kicker. Why is it that my camcorder capture picture quality looks a tad better; the image looks sharper and the colors richer? I’m starting to think that camcorder captures may be underrated. Thoughts?

PV-S4670->DMR-ES15 on the left and GR-SXM260U on the right


[Attachment 72502 - Click to enlarge]


[Attachment 72503 - Click to enlarge]


**Edit Notes: Big thanks to dellsam34 and other folks on this thread for helping me disable the indicators of the camcorder that were shown on output during playback.

[dellsam34]

It could be that your camcorder has better processing than the ES15. It's odd that you can't turn off the TBC display, Have you tried to turn off the OSC in the menu? Check page 21 of the manual.

[lovethisnation]

It could be that your camcorder has better processing than the ES15. It's odd that you can't turn off the TBC display, Have you tried to turn off the OSC in the menu? Check page 21 of the manual.

I've tried all the possible menu functions. If someone can find a way I will be a happy camper.

[dellsam34]

Even with OSD out set to OFF you still get TBC displayed? Note there is options for internal LCD display and options for OSD out.

[jagabo]

the image looks sharper and the colors richer?

Such things are easily compensated for with proc amp adjustments before capture. or in software after capture.

[Brad]

Why is it that my camcorder capture picture quality looks a tad better; the image looks sharper

Tough to tell from these processed screenshots. To my eyes, you've turned them both into cartoons. But to each their own, if that's your preference.

[lovethisnation]

Even with OSD out set to OFF you still get TBC displayed? Note there is options for internal LCD display and options for OSD out.

I change OSD out to off then on play mode the TBC and the tracking info still shows. It’s the most annoying thing.

[lovethisnation]

the image looks sharper and the colors richer?

Such things are easily compensated for with proc amp adjustments before capture. or in software after capture.

How to proc amp adjustment before capture? After capture I did the same adjustment to both and the result is what you seen in the photo capture.

[lovethisnation]

Why is it that my camcorder capture picture quality looks a tad better; the image looks sharper

Tough to tell from these processed screenshots. To my eyes, you've turned them both into cartoons. But to each their own, if that's your preference.

Lol I did a bit of adjustment and the same to both after capture, but I will post unprocessed interlaced screenshots.

[jagabo]

Don't post screenshots. Post video samples.

[Bwaak]

Date/time is burned in. Other info like TBC and the counter - you should be able to turn it off.

[lovethisnation]

Date/time is burned in. Other info like TBC and the counter - you should be able to turn it off.

I've tried everything to turn the TBC and counter off from the display.

[lovethisnation]

sample videos

capture 1- GR-SXM260U ->GVUSB2 --LAGS YUY2

capture 2 - PV-S4670->DMR-ES15->GVUSB2 --LAGS YUY2

[dellsam34]

I've tried everything to turn the TBC and counter off from the display.

It doesn't make any sense, Why when you turn the TBC off the SP letters and timer go off? I'm pretty sure there is a button on the camcorder that you toggle while playing back turns off those indicators.
Are you connecting the camcorder with composite or S-Video, This may make a difference.

[lovethisnation]

I've tried everything to turn the TBC and counter off from the display.

It doesn't make any sense, Why when you turn the TBC off the SP letters and timer go off? I'm pretty sure there is a button on the camcorder that you toggle while playing back turns off those indicators.
Are you connecting the camcorder with composite or S-Video, This may make a difference.

No, the camera always outputs the counters of the screen along with whatever you activate that shows up on screen. If the TBC is activated, it will also output the "TBC" letters on screen. If I deactivate the TBC from playback it will obviously come off the screen but the counter will remain on the display. I don't want to disable the TBC though, it defeats the purpose, i just don't want it on the screen on my captures and same goes with the counter.

I did what you suggested and turned off the OSD Output off and i still see the indicators on the display...

ok...just jumped out of my chair. After I typed this I realized, wait a min, I still see the indicators on the camcorder LCD but I never tested how it shows up on output and lo and behold, the indicators are gone on the output! OSD Output off did it. I assumed because it still showed in the LCD that the OSD off didn't do anything, but it did! No indicators show up on a capture. Thank you!

[lordsmurf]

You needed the camcorder remote. It was on there.

The reason these JVC S-VHS-C camcorders are disliked is due to a bad habit of eating the -C tapes on playback. Yes, that seems odds, given how it records fine. And yet, that is the situation.

[dellsam34]

ok...just jumped out of my chair. After I typed this I realized, wait a min, I still see the indicators on the camcorder LCD but I never tested how it shows up on output and lo and behold, the indicators are gone on the output! OSD Output off did it. I assumed because it still showed in the LCD that the OSD off didn't do anything, but it did! No indicators show up on a capture. Thank you!

That's what I've been saying the whole time, The video output, who cares what the LCD/viewfinder displays. Anyway, if you are not using S-Video, do so to get better quality.

[lovethisnation]

You needed the camcorder remote. It was on there.

The reason these JVC S-VHS-C camcorders are disliked is due to a bad habit of eating the -C tapes on playback. Yes, that seems odds, given how it records fine. And yet, that is the situation.

Well, I’m going to pray that it doesn’t eat mine because, unless I’m drunk, look at that baby running against the PV-S4670 (I posted a sample video a few posts above for comparison). I’m impressed. And yea, the S4670 is not to die for by any means but it is paired with a Panny ES15 which helps the video and it performs really well for a VCR that is 27 years old. Now, comes this camcorder built in 2003 which is in pretty good shape and have a built in “tbc” and it runs as well as other popular decent VCR? Hmm, it is not a bad choice, I don think. I got the camcorder for less than $100.

I’m interested though in what people think about the video sample. Which sample looks better in your opinion?

[lovethisnation]

ok...just jumped out of my chair. After I typed this I realized, wait a min, I still see the indicators on the camcorder LCD but I never tested how it shows up on output and lo and behold, the indicators are gone on the output! OSD Output off did it. I assumed because it still showed in the LCD that the OSD off didn't do anything, but it did! No indicators show up on a capture. Thank you!

That's what I've been saying the whole time, The video output, who cares what the LCD/viewfinder displays. Anyway, if you are not using S-Video, do so to get better quality.

Yes you have! You’re a life savior! Thank you. I do use the SVideo out.

[lollo]

I’m interested though in what people think about the video sample. Which sample looks better in your opinion?

The TBC of the ES-15 may be better or not compared to the Camcorder in term of video quality. Generally is better for image stabilization, worst for picture quality. YMMV.

The 2 captures are very very close.

https://imgsli.com/MTkyNjg0

I prefere the GR-SXM260U, better definition on the grass and less blur on the player, but it's very marginal and more a speculation than a fact.
The GR captures shows 1 dropped frame between frame 227 and frame 228.
In term of stabilization I do not see major differences.
Dfferences in term of black borders on the top and head switching noise at the bottom between the 2 captures.

Is there a reason why your captures are RGB 24-bits?

[lovethisnation]

I’m interested though in what people think about the video sample. Which sample looks better in your opinion?

The TBC of the ES-15 may be better or not compared to the Camcorder in term of video quality. Generally is better for image stabilization, worst for picture quality. YMMV.

The 2 captures are very very close.

https://imgsli.com/MTkyNjg0

I prefere the GR-SXM260U, better definition on the grass and less blur on the player, but it's very marginal and more a speculation than a fact.
The GR captures shows 1 dropped frame between frame 227 and frame 228.
In term of stabilization I do not see major differences.
Dfferences in term of black borders on the top and head switching noise at the bottom between the 2 captures.

Is there a reason why your captures are RGB 24-bits?

Thank you. I have the same opinion as you that the GR-SXM260U has a slight edge here.

You say what? My captures are RGB 24 bit? Hmm now you have me thinking what I did . I used the LAGS YUY2 codec in the AmerecTV app then I just used VirtualDub2 to cut the samples and Saved the file to upload here, oh and the file is what you see. Perhaps in the process of cutting the file and save it I forgot something in Vdub?

[lollo]

Yes, "direct stream copy" option ;(

[oln]

The very late JVC and Panasonic VHSC camcorders actually have an advanced digital video processing chain a bit akin to what sony did in the late hi8/video camcorders though at least for the two PAL ones I have (don't remember the exact model numbers right now) they did a kinda meh job with it and the chroma is a bit overly smeary on both of them. Maybe that's not an issue with the NTSC variants though. The TBC is a bit hit and miss, much less prone to the vertical jittering that the TBC in the JVC SVHS VCRs is but not as resilient to very extreme horizontal jitter. Haven't had issues with the OSD showing up on mine though.

[lovethisnation]

Yes, "direct stream copy" option ;(

Crap, of course i messed something up. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll repost the file to see if it changes anything.

[lollo]

It won’t for what we said

[lovethisnation]

The very late JVC and Panasonic VHSC camcorders actually have an advanced digital video processing chain a bit akin to what sony did in the late hi8/video camcorders though at least for the two PAL ones I have (don't remember the exact model numbers right now) they did a kinda meh job with it and the chroma is a bit overly smeary on both of them. Maybe that's not an issue with the NTSC variants though. The TBC is a bit hit and miss, much less prone to the vertical jittering that the TBC in the JVC SVHS VCRs is but not as resilient to very extreme horizontal jitter. Haven't had issues with the OSD showing up on mine though.

Interesting, it is quite impressive what the small device can do. How did they cramp so much in such a small board. Sucks for those tape eating habits though. As for the OSD, that was all a mishap on my part because I didn't check the output, so I edited the original post. But i have to admit, it can easily confuse people because when you turn the setting off the LCD in the camcorder still displays the indicators.

[lovethisnation]

It won’t for what we said

ha, i had a feeling.

[Bwaak]

But i have to admit, it can easily confuse people because when you turn the setting off the LCD in the camcorder still displays the indicators.

Those who use camcorders are generally aware that what you see on the monitor and what is sent out from an output are two different things. Glad you figured it out.

[lovethisnation]

But i have to admit, it can easily confuse people because when you turn the setting off the LCD in the camcorder still displays the indicators.

Those who use camcorders are generally aware that what you see on the monitor and what is sent out from an output are two different things. Glad you figured it out.

True, but after trying playing with the settings, i thought that i ran into a model that didn't let you disable it. Trust me i was pulling my hair. I had to rely on manuals online. It frustrated me because i saw icons disappearing off the screen, like the little tape icon, but the TBC and counter always stayed. Anyway, it's a non issue now

[lovethisnation]

Dfferences in term of black borders on the top and head switching noise at the bottom between the 2 captures.

Could you expand on this? I see that. Should I get rid of the black borders on top on the ES15 capture? How difficult it is to remove and resize the GR noise at the bottom? Or better yet, what is the proper way to go about doing that?