Current best practices for VHS capture?

[Alwyn]

And the abuse continues, yet again.

[armyofquad]

It's all good, do what makes you happy. But, if you're happy with your minimalist approach, and aren't looking for advice or tips to improve capturing, why are you here?

[Alwyn]

It's all good, do what makes you happy. But, if you're happy with your minimalist approach, and aren't looking for advice or tips to improve capturing, why are you here?

Who's that directed at, Army?

[lordsmurf]

And the abuse continues, yet again.

Your continued use of the word "abuse" is ridiculous.

a·buse
verb
1. use (something) to bad effect or for a bad purpose; misuse. (similar: misapply, misemploy, mishandle, exploit, pervert, take advantage of)
2. treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly.

Kid: "My teacher makes me learn stuff! My teacher tells me my wrong answer is wrong! He's abusing me!"

[Anonymous5394]

This forum and its friendly 'banter' is great for learning about vhs capturing.

[armyofquad]

My previous comparison video wasn't exactly scientific, since it compared 2 videos with multiple variables, so really is only useful as a generalized example of what one could expect by putting in a bit more effort in general.

Anyways, I pulled out an old RCA VCR with only composite output because I wanted to verify the sound on a tape was on the tape, and not a machine sound of the JVC VCR. It turned out that the sound was the tape - but the tape was a flickering nightmare on that VCR. Out of curiosity, I plugged the composite output to the composite input of the Panasonic DMR-ES15, and holy crap! These things are miracle boxes.

Check out the sample below:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/8rbu3nuyzsef23wwhz5fy/panasonic-sample.mp4?rlkey=5gnqcp...1rqidto8e&dl=0

Not bad for a $55 eBay purchase, shipping included. At the bare minimum, if you're going to capture VHS, grab one of these.

[Alwyn]

@Armyofquad, could I use that clip in post 36 above on my YT channel? I'll attribute you.

[armyofquad]

@Armyofquad, could I use that clip in post 36 above on my YT channel? I'll attribute you.

Sure, go ahead.

[dellsam34]

Anyways, I pulled out an old RCA VCR with only composite output because I wanted to verify the sound on a tape was on the tape, and not a machine sound of the JVC VCR. It turned out that the sound was the tape - but the tape was a flickering nightmare on that VCR. Out of curiosity, I plugged the composite output to the composite input of the Panasonic DMR-ES15, and holy crap! These things are miracle boxes.

The right side video is not really that good, Your could benefit from a better VCR, Keep in mind a good VCR can eliminate 80-90% of the problems in most cases.

[armyofquad]

Anyways, I pulled out an old RCA VCR with only composite output because I wanted to verify the sound on a tape was on the tape, and not a machine sound of the JVC VCR. It turned out that the sound was the tape - but the tape was a flickering nightmare on that VCR. Out of curiosity, I plugged the composite output to the composite input of the Panasonic DMR-ES15, and holy crap! These things are miracle boxes.

The right side video is not really that good, Your could benefit from a better VCR, Keep in mind a good VCR can eliminate 80-90% of the problems in most cases.

The VCR used in that example is an RCA VR603HF. I don't know much about this model, it was a freebee given to me by family members, probably an average home use VCR. An ebay sold search brings up a few of them that have recently sold for $40.

Clearly not as good as the JVC HR-S5900U VCR I picked up. Still a basic home use VCR, but an SVHS VCR with s-video.

The tape is an 80s JVC blank that looks like this

[Attachment 72862 - Click to enlarge]
A decent blank of the time period.

The recording was made 40 years ago in 1983.

Clearly the tape has degraded over the years, given that is plays with as much flicker as it does on the RCA VCR. Plus, it's an SLP recording.

But yes, while what the Panasonic did with the RCA playback of the tape is something of a miracle and turns a flickery mess into something watcheable again, it could be better. So here's another comparison - the RCA through the Panasonic on the left this time, with the JVC through the panasonic on the right.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u3juftk06uxhiic6oemd5/rca-vs-jvc.mp4?rlkey=6taydy43czxy...rxpt8jm8d&dl=0

[Alwyn]

That's great Quad, Dellsham should be pleased.

The only further test to complete the puzzle is how how the JVC handles that tape with the ES15.

Any chance of doing that one for us?

There's lots of unsubstantiated claims flying around about VCRs but your tests are great because they actually show the facts.

I'll steal this one too, if I may.

[armyofquad]

That's great Quad, Dellsham should be pleased.

The only further test to complete the puzzle is how how the JVC handles that tape with the ES15.

Any chance of doing that one for us?

There's lots of unsubstantiated claims flying around about VCRs but your tests are great because they actually show the facts.

I'll steal this one too, if I may.

Sure, go ahead.

This example is both with the ES15.

Do you mean an example of the JVC VCR without?

[Alwyn]

Yes, one more, just the JVC without the ES15. Then we can compare the crummy VCR with the JVC without ES15 enhancements.

[armyofquad]

This thread has been a complete and utter failure!

I asked for best practices for VHS capturing - no one offered any real workflow or specific advice, and not once did anyone mention the importance of setting the capture to interlaced, or how to do that!

What do I need to do to get real answers to my questions on this site?

[jeby1980]

You literally led off this thread with "I know a thing or 2 about video conversions", so capturing as interlaced is pretty much 101.

I've modified my workflow as follows:

Sony VHS player - RCA output (i'd use S-video if i could find one locally)
Fed through Videonics MX1 to remove the timing issues
Captured via USB dongle Avermedia DVD EZ Maker7
Captured with AmarecTV as interlaced 720x480 YUY2 16bit AVI

Then I use Avisynth+ to do the following to the AVI:
Deinterlace with QTGMC
Denoise with TemporalDegrain2 or TemporalDegrain2_fast (understand that this step extends processing time significantly)
Spline64 Resize to 640x480

There are some other details in Avisynth+ but im not gonna go into those if you're gonna be a crybaby

[armyofquad]

I've seen reference to QTGMC multiple times in threads - no explanation as to who, what, where, when, or why.

It's like pulling teeth to actually get useful information around here.

[jeby1980]

follow this video to set it up. as you can see, it's a bit too involved to convey via a post forum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4PyyQoz6eo&t=441s

I found AVSPmod really useful as you can run quick comparisons on the selected script settings.

QTGMC is a script that deinterlaces. There are different settings to it and you gotta play around with it. Turn them up too high and things get smeary.

http://avisynth.nl/index.php/QTGMC this link gives some explanation on QTGMC

But yes, it's a complicated subject that gets even more muddy when individuals eek out every bit of picture clarity that most laymen would not even perceive.

[VHS-Heaven]

All the dropbox links are dead now, this is very disappointing. I wish you uploaded to youtube

[lordsmurf]

All the dropbox links are dead now, this is very disappointing. I wish you uploaded to youtube

Streaming compression often screws up what is being shown. That's why.

[psynchro]

Wow, what a cool forum. I'd been researching mostly on Youtube the last days and nearly bought the I-O Data GV-USB2, Startech, or Dazzle DVC100 several times before pulling back and asking if I should take more time and buy a better combination of equipment. Now I know the rabbit hole truly exists, and the question is if I want to jump in...

I'd like to roundtrip 1080 and 4k video to VHS and back to my computer. I would like to get the cleanest reasonable quality possible (i know you're rolling your eyes), and possibly be able to control (as in add in some cases) interlacing, chroma or other errors sometimes. This would be to match actual footage from circa 1990-1992.

Background is for an idea I have (not sure it will work conceptually) of blending some found video I recovered from the 1993 World Expo "Universe Exploration Center" (translating roughly) in Daejeon, South Korea. I was able to rescue it with some classmates in 2015 by finding an entrance. Absolutely eery and amazing experience. From what we could tell, it was abandoned in 2001 and had been built before 1993. Most Koreans that grew up in the 90s remember visiting the complex numerous times. Anyway, I found old imax film rolls and "liberated" dozens of VHS cassettes. I digitized them, but sadly only with an Elgato unit then and have relocated to Europe now, so I don't have the tapes anymore. The quality is okay though, and possibly unique. The content is all about the dreams of innovation of a bright future for a pre-Kpop Korea, where technology will free us from...the problems we have today.

I have a Panasonic DMR-ES35V, 1080 capture card, Mac, Win11 PC, and was wondering if anyone could point me to a thread or advice on how to go. I don't mind spending a few hundred euros, but if getting an I-O Data GV-USB2 and a simple AV to HDMI convertor will get me 95% of the quality, I will trust your advice and just go there. The sad things is I had an AIW card back in the day, and miss the thing

Thanks much for reading.

[Sharc]

I digitized them, but sadly only with an Elgato unit then and have relocated to Europe now, so I don't have the tapes anymore....

Maybe I misunderstand your intention. But as you have digitized the tapes already - using the Elgato (at the given +/- satisfactory quality) - and you don't have the tapes anymore, you can edit (and possibly improve the quality) of the digital Elgato videofiles staying in the digital domain using an NLE or tools like Avisynth. No purpose in converting the digital files back to analog and recapture via VHS player+DVD recorder+GV-USB2 or similar setup.

[VHS-Heaven]

All the dropbox links are dead now, this is very disappointing. I wish you uploaded to youtube

Streaming compression often screws up what is being shown. That's why.

I just wish the videos would be still available.

[armyofquad]

Any videos I provided were all captured wrong anyways....

....still not seen anything useful produced in any of my threads....

....sure would be nice if SOMEONE would share what a proper workflow of VHS capture would look like so I could stop stumbling around blindly while everyone around here plays a cruel game of knowledge hoarding....

[armyofquad]

Given that this thread with it's title gives off the impression that it provides useful information on current best practices for VHS capturing, and provides nothing close to that, I request that it be completely removed from this forum, so that we can at least have one less piece of useless clutter on the internet that people seeking out actual information may waste their time on.

[jeby1980]

Honestly, VHS capture and conversion seems to be too technically challenging for you. Perhaps a conversion service would be a better fit.

[armyofquad]

Honestly, VHS capture and conversion seems to be too technically challenging for you. Perhaps a conversion service would be a better fit.

Given the reviews I've seen more most conversion services, I suspect that my current half-assed methods have surpassed what I'd get back.

This is nothing beyond my technical abilities if someone would actually provide some useful information.

Every decision I've made that led me to this result of hours of 30p video captured which I'm now finding out is not ideal for VHS capture, is a decision I made as a result of advice from others in this forum!

I was using lossless codecs such as huffyuv and lagarith. I was told they have color issues. I asked about how to deal with that. I was provided technobabble without any useful info as to how to specifically deal with these things. Cineform was suggested as an option that would avoid the color issues. I setup my capture station with that - a capture station, mind you, I setup and configured myself with Windows XP, an ATI card, and virtualdub with my technical skills. I acquired a mitsubish VCR with built in TBC to do better than a crappy composite capture from an "average" consumer VCR. I looked over all cineform video settings, I looked over again - I see no way to make it capture interlaced. At no point did I set it to capture progressive, at no point was any instruction adequate to use virtualdub with cineform to capture VHS properly given!

I've asked many many questions here, I've read through many many forums here, I've researched extensively, I've spent many hours - and here we are.

Every step is like pulling teeth here. No one seems to have any desire to offer any useful information here. I didn't start disgruntled here, I became that way as I've been met with a lack of useful information with each and every damn question I've asked here.

And still no one is forthcoming, the most one can suggest is to send it in to one of those numerous services that I'm sure no one here has anything good to say about them.

Mind you, I'm devoting hours of my time to capturing my Aunt's precious memories to spare her the risk of loss or damage of sending these tapes to one of those services. And this is the thanks I get for trying to help someone, no help when I need it!

Well, if you can't actually offer any best practices in this thread that is named for it, the least someone could do around here is nuke it! Leaving this pile of useless garbage to waste anyone's time that comes upon it does the internet a disservice.

[armyofquad]

On further review, I am still confused.

Reviewing all my steps, it appears I've done everything correctly, and was basing my determination that it was all wrong on the mediainfo calling it progressive.

However, when I input the captures into Vegas, they detect them as interlaced.

When I set the project to double frames, I see motion throughout the 60fps layout.

It appears my captures may actually be correct.


I will need to figure out how to split an avi to upload a sample if one needs to review an actual file, but here's the media info I'm seeing:

General
Complete name : E:\file.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
Format profile : OpenDML
Format settings : BitmapInfoHeader / WaveFormatEx
File size : 7.01 GiB
Duration : 28 min 38 s
Overall bit rate : 35.1 Mb/s
Frame rate : 29.970 FPS

Video
ID : 0
Format : CineForm
Codec ID : CFHD
Codec ID/Info : CineForm 10-bit Visually Perfect HD (Wavelet)
Duration : 28 min 38 s
Bit rate : 33.5 Mb/s
Width : 640 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:2
Bit depth : 10 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 3.641
Stream size : 6.70 GiB (96%)

Audio
ID : 1
Format : PCM
Format settings : Little / Signed
Codec ID : 1
Duration : 28 min 38 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 315 MiB (4%)
Alignment : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration : 33 ms (1.00 video frame)
Interleave, preload duration : 66 ms



The scan type of progressive is what I'm interpreting as defining this as a progressive file. However, I suspect the other detailed data on this may provide info that it's interlaced. Not sure what to make of any of this.


Still looking for useful feedback on any of this - being that this is supposed to be a help forum, some actual help would be very welcome to my threads.

[_Al_]

Just redo it with a very small sample and post a sample. Understand flags in video might be correct or they might be wrong.
SAMPLES, Samples, samples ...

It is much more convenient to download a sample and to know immediately whats going on, instead of re-reading whole thread which gives you a headache and deducting, imagining what you might do correctly or incorrectly.

[armyofquad]

So we're just ignoring mediainfo posts at this point then? The whole reason I have that installed on my PC is posts from that used to be requested around here.

[armyofquad]

Ok, here's a sample of my VHS capturing.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/up48oedp1dcxmo8puv8ur/sample.avi?rlkey=r205u2cqrlk82i07sbt5blh7n&dl=0

How's this?