The old "war of opinion" - Capture 8mm tapes in DV or lossless?

[Marvolo]

My VirtualDub "Direct Stream Copy" instructions were intended both for a Huffyuv source, and a DV source. VDub shouldn't mess with the metadata like your NLE is.

OK, right. I only used your instructions for the uncompressed files yet. Good to know I can use it for DV as well.

[Bwaak]

As soon as I use my NLE to re-export a fraction of it using the Smart-Rendering mechanism (no re-encoding in place), MediaInfo says this...

Then it is not "no re-encoding" export. What NLE is it? Not that I will be able to help, just curious.

[DB83]

Well 'smart rendering' should hardly change the codec, colorsubsampling and bits per pixel.

BTW What NLE + version is this ? That may provide a clue as to what is going on. Mediainfo does make some assumptions in its report so could well have been fooled in providing this info.


You can also do a 'smart' edit in vdub for DV (you do not see any codec but it does it all the same - I know since I have done it)

[Marvolo]

As soon as I use my NLE to re-export a fraction of it using the Smart-Rendering mechanism (no re-encoding in place), MediaInfo says this...

Then it is not "no re-encoding" export. What NLE is it? Not that I will be able to help, just curious.

This one. As far as I know, it's a German manufacturer, but the software may be popular in English speaking countries (under a different title) as well.

[Marvolo]

As for the increase in saturation and brightness that we all observed earlier - I still have my neighbor's camera here which I borrowed. The one that only gives picture but hardly any sound. I can try and use this cam for a short sequence of capture and then we can compare it to my own. If the neighbor's cam gives out picture correctly and constantly, I might be able to capture as well. The missing sound should be easily inserted using the track from either the 2008 capture or my own capture / with my own cam... Or would I run into sync problems that way?

[DB83]

Magix. They acquired the Sony Vegas range (if I am not mistaken). Chances are that both products are similar 'under the hood'

[Brad]

The uncompressed UYVY sample suffers from a YCbCr -> RGB -> YCbCr conversion at some point.

Does the German guide include instructions about setting the HDMI output of your Panasonic DMR-EH575 to YCbCr 4:2:2? I think they typically default to RGB.

LWLibavVideoSource("sample_uncompressed.avi")
UtoY()
Subtitle("sample_uncompressed.avi + UtoY()",size=11)

Example showing how YCbCr -> RGB -> YCbCr affects chroma. Left is straight UtoY from one of my old YUY2 captures. Right has been degraded by conversion. False edges are created.

[Marvolo]

OK, here's the same sequence as from the very beginning of this thread (outdoor scenery, beach, clouds) when we were comparing the two 2008 and 2023 DV captures.
This time: one is the uncompressed capture, the other the 2008 DV original (this time, no Smart Rendering with my NLE. I used VDub here as well).

[Marvolo]

Does the German guide include instructions about setting the HDMI output of your Panasonic DMR-EH575 to YCbCr 4:2:2? I think they typically default to RGB.

I will check. Thanks for the tip.

[Marvolo]

In this post, I'm going to send another comparison where there is a lot of different colors present. While we now have already observed that for the uncompressed captures, the colors / saturation seems to be increased, my impression is that the colors in this clip here in the uncompressed one are almost a tad too strong compared to the DV one?


I might make a comparison with the neighbor's cam later when I get to it. Maybe saturation will be not so strong with his cam?!

[Marvolo]

Does the German guide include instructions about setting the HDMI output of your Panasonic DMR-EH575 to YCbCr 4:2:2? I think they typically default to RGB.

That's what the guide says:


[Attachment 72002 - Click to enlarge]

[Attachment 72003 - Click to enlarge]

[Attachment 72004 - Click to enlarge]

The way I understand it, all those settings are irrelevant for me because I connected the D8 cam at the Panasonic's AV3 front panel, not via SCART ports (AV1) in the back.
The AV3 front panel automatically detects whether S-Video or FBAS is connected and the player then activates the signal path it needs.

Also, the guide says something that RGB is not possible with a HDMI connection, at least not possible at the AV1 Scart-out port. (Picture 3) Does that mean that it doesn't give out RGB at all or just not at the AV1 Scart port while there is a HDMI connection??

Might have to ask the author of that guide.

[Skiller]

Also, the guide says something that RGB is not possible with a HDMI connection, at least not possible at the AV1 Scart-out port. (Picture 3) Does that mean that it doesn't give out RGB at all or just not at the AV1 Scart port while there is a HDMI connection??

AV1 Scart is output only (for watching on a TV), and it is the only place where it may output RGB, whereas AV2 Scart is input only (for recording) and it accepts RGB for input, along with Composite and S-Video, depending on the settings.
However, RGB is not needed and not useful for capturing analog tapes. It was intended for a higher quality recording off of digital TV receiver boxes, reducing losses introduced by Composite and S-Video (although S-Video is pretty good).


RGB out on AV1 is best used for watching on CRT TVs. If you use HDMI, you don't need it, nor is it available then.

[Marvolo]

However, RGB is not needed and not useful for capturing analog tapes. It was intended for a higher quality recording off of digital TV receiver boxes, reducing losses introduced by Composite and S-Video (although S-Video is pretty good).
RGB out on AV1 is best used for watching on CRT TVs. If you use HDMI, you don't need it, nor is it available then.

Thanks Skiller

Then how do you explain what Brad observed in #157 where he says

The uncompressed UYVY sample suffers from a YCbCr -> RGB -> YCbCr conversion at some point.

Does the German guide include instructions about setting the HDMI output of your Panasonic DMR-EH575 to YCbCr 4:2:2? I think they typically default to RGB.

Has there been an unwanted conversion from YCbCr to RGB and back again?

[lollo]

In this post, I'm going to send another comparison where there is a lot of different colors present. While we now have already observed that for the uncompressed captures, the colors / saturation seems to be increased, my impression is that the colors in this clip here in the uncompressed one are almost a tad too strong compared to the DV one?

Here the result of the comparison is more contradictory. At first, the DV capture seems better to me:



slider comparison: https://imgsli.com/MTg4MDk1

but after applying a simple

tweak(sat=0.8)

impressions changed a bit:



slider comparison: https://imgsli.com/MTg4MDk2

For sure, the overall look of the capture in term of colors, saturation, etc may false the perception. And, once more, for this test case DV and lossless capture are very close.

[Marvolo]

Thanks lollo... Quite interesting.

Like I said earlier: since we now know that my camcorder seems to gear up brightness and saturation a little, I will later try and capture it with my neighbor's cam which, for some unknown reason, only plays video but no sound.. After all, I read and hear that playback quality can change A LOT depending on the player.

Which I find discouraging. I cannot buy 100s of camcorders and test them all just to see where playback might be the best of all???

[Sharc]

....Which I find discouraging. I cannot buy 100s of camcorders and test them all just to see where playback might be the best of all???

No, but you may learn Avisynth basics and how to use it for basic post processing. Helps a lot in many situations.
Tapes are an analog medium, and you will hardly find 2 identical captures simply because of tolerances and settings in the analog signal path, and the details how the analog signal is digitized and converted to YCbCr (YUV).

[Skiller]

Then how do you explain what Brad observed in #157 where he says

The uncompressed UYVY sample suffers from a YCbCr -> RGB -> YCbCr conversion at some point.

Does the German guide include instructions about setting the HDMI output of your Panasonic DMR-EH575 to YCbCr 4:2:2? I think they typically default to RGB.

Has there been an unwanted conversion from YCbCr to RGB and back again?

Those sharp edges in the U color channel could be because of an YCbCr -> RGB -> YCbCr conversion indeed. Just to make sure, the AV-in NR is off, right?

There are no settings in the Panasonic's menu regarding the HDMI color format. Afaik it defaults to 8 Bit 4:2:2, but it may output other formats as well, which is probably handled behind the curtains via handshake between the devices. Thus, the splitter could have an impact on this, I suppose.
Do you have a TV at hand that displays color format information of HDMI input signals? That could be used to check.

[Marvolo]

True. After having compared the neighbor's cam with my own, I conclude it's not worth the hassle. I'll stick to my own cam.

and you will hardly find 2 identical captures

Well, I think you may be right in principle, BUT I can barely see a difference between the neigbor's cam and mine, do you? They seem to be nearly or fully identical to me --> see attached AVIs.

But anyway... Since the neighbor's cam can't play audio anyway, I'll just return it to him and concentrate on my own.

Important Update: I may have found out why the saturation and brightness is a little higher: In the D8 cam, I went to the menu and turned off TBC and DNR and captured a sequence. Then I turned TBC and DNR on and captured the same sequence.

Results: With Cam's TBC and DNR on, the picture is paler and less saturated than with cam's TBC and DNR turned off.
See here:

TBC & DNR turned off:

[Attachment 72043 - Click to enlarge]

TBC & DNR turned on:

[Attachment 72044 - Click to enlarge]

I used to capture with cam's TBC and DNR turned off as I thought the Panasonic provides its own TBC and DNR could be done in post...

[lollo]

Which I find discouraging. I cannot buy 100s of camcorders and test them all just to see where playback might be the best of all???

As Sharc said, there is no way to have identical results from different analog devices. But if the quality is there, it is only matter of tuning the output results, and in that case AviSynth may help a lot.

Also note that in your DV capture, the center of the top portion of the frame is shifted to the left. Probably the Panasonic is doing a better job while lineTBC correctiong the signal https://imgsli.com/MTg4MDk2. But these are details...

[Marvolo]

Just to make sure, the AV-in NR is off, right?

If you mean the cam's DNR & TBC, they're turned off.

Do you have a TV at hand that displays color format information of HDMI input signals? That could be used to check.

Unfortunately, no.

[lollo]

They seem to be nearly or fully identical to me

They are close but not identical: comp.mp4


[Attachment 72046 - Click to enlarge]

I used to capture with cam's TBC and DNR turned off as I thought the Panasonic provides its own TBC and DNR could be done in post...

Generally this is the rule, but always experiment case by case

edit: corrected aspect ratio of comparison file

[Marvolo]

They are close but not identical
[Attachment 72045 - Click to enlarge]

This is some cool feature - substraction mode.

Well, I assume it's not worth capturing with the neighbor's cam without any audio and then having to copy the audio track from the 2008 DV source and trying to make it sync. I'll concentrate on my own cam, I think.

[Marvolo]

Generally this is the rule, but always experiment case by case

So, what would you say? Does the paler image with less saturation when TBC and DNR are internally turned on look more natural to you??

[Sharc]

.....BUT I can barely see a difference between the neigbor's cam and mine, do you? They seem to be nearly or fully identical to me --> see attached AVIs.

Nearly identical, yes, but nitpicking: Your neighbour's has slightly brighter brights (checked with the waveform histogram) which results in a very minor loss of details/gradients for the highly saturated colors.

[lollo]

Well, I assume it's not worth capturing with the neighbor's cam without any audio and then having to copy the audio track from the 2008 DV source and trying to make it sync. I'll concentrate on my own cam, I think.

As you can see, there is not a straight answer and a unique opinion from others.

Experiment yourself all the different options, and make your choice by yourself. We can only highlight some aspects, more or less important.

Once you have the tools and the methodology, your final choice will be the best, and you will not be disappointed.

[Marvolo]

My conclusion so far:

Of course, it would be very easy and simple to put the tape into a cam, connect it with FireWire and hit record and be happy with the DV files instead of meticulously working one's way into the realms, specialties and oddities of analogue capture, but I believe it's worth it. You'll learn so much more about video and its specifications. At least I have been in the course of this thread.

[lollo]

Generally this is the rule, but always experiment case by case

So, what would you say? Does the paler image with less saturation when TBC and DNR are internally turned on look more natural to you??

I would first focus on lineTBC correction effectiveness rather than the "look" of the video, and choose the best option in that regard.

Also consider that having the TBC on in the camera probably means an additional internal A/D/A lossy conversion.

[lollo]

Just to make sure, the AV-in NR is off, right?

If you mean the cam's DNR & TBC, they're turned off.

Skiller meant the Panasonic, I assume

[Brad]

There are no settings in the Panasonic's menu regarding the HDMI color format. Afaik it defaults to 8 Bit 4:2:2, but it may output other formats as well

Whoops, I was thinking of my US "Philips" (Funai) DVDR that I recall defaulting to RGB in the past.

I see from the PAL DMR-EH575 manual, indeed it has no HDMI color format menu setting.

That's a bit strange to me. My NTSC DMR-ES25 also auto-negotiates YCbCr or RGB depending on the capability of the other links in the chain. But it at least has an option to toggle between RGB "standard" vs "enhanced" (i.e. limited vs full range).

The handy thing about this is that when HDMI RGB Output Range is greyed-out, I know it's sending YCbCr.


Marvolo: Do you have anything else connected to the splitter output, or just the Intensity card?

[Marvolo]

Marvolo: Do you have anything else connected to the splitter output, or just the Intensity card?

Just the intensity card. The other HDMI port of the splitter is empty. I believe it does not play a role which of the 2 outputs I connect the hdmi cable to?