The old "war of opinion" - Capture 8mm tapes in DV or lossless?

[Marvolo]

Update:

splitter works like a dream. If anyone's interested which model it is: https://www.amazon.de/dp/B01615JA3A?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
I've just immediately ordered 2 more to have a bit of a backup.

I've also just captured a few seconds of one of my video8 tape and compared it to the 2008 and 2023 DV capture. I can see a clear difference already. The colours now are quite noticibly stronger than with the two DV captures.

I think it might be very worth re-capturing all tapes using this method. I'll keep you updated and provide samples for comparison if you'd like.

[DB83]

Samples pls

[Marvolo]

Here are 7 seconds of capture.
One is the 2008 DV capture, the other is the HuffYuf lossless capture using S-Video port --> Panasonic --> HDMI --> Blackmagic Intensity Pro.

Despite the improvement in colour, it seems to me as if there was some sort of interlacing / deinterlacing problem with the HuffYuf file. When I import the DV file into my NLE and pause it, everything looks fine, no interlacing lines (even though DV should be interlaced by default).

When I do the same with the lossless Huffyuf file, I immediately see interlacing lines when the video is paused.

Same when I play both with VLC player. VLC is set to deinterlace automatically, so when I play the DV file and I pause the video I don't see any interlacing. Also not during playback.
When I play the Huffyuf file with the VLC player (same settings), even though that automated-deinterlacing is turned on, I can see heavy interlacing lines during playback and on pause.

I'm sure this must only be some sort of settings issue, but I don't know where.

https://we.tl/t-d3hV29ll4G

[poisondeathray]

The "huffyuv" file is actually uncompressed 8bit 4:2:2. There is evidence of progressive vertical resampling(resizing), while still in fields (instead of interlaced aware resampling), hence the wavy lines . Maybe something was set to 480 height setting somewhere ? Image looks vertically compressed as well, then letterboxed

[Marvolo]

poisondeathray

That is true. I was simply not sure how I could export those 7 seconds without re-rendering. I used MediaInfo to check what the capture file consisted of and it told me it was uncompressed 8bit 4:2:2, aspect ratio 5:4 but it told me nothing about interlace mode (Bottom, top?). So in my export settings I just went for uncompressed 8bit and put Top Field First in hopes this would come closest to the capture file.

So maybe something went wrong with the aspect ratio 5:4 vs 4:3 as well as the field order where I put Top Field First.

The capture file itself is 14 mins long and already 20GB. I couldn't possibly upload this file just to avoid re-exporting or re-rendering.

[DB83]

Ok. Why are you calling this a huffyuv video when the most simple of texts prooves that it is not.

Even without audio you are talking of 62 gb per hour compared with 30-35 for huffyuv (including audio)


That sample is UNCOMPRESSED as I expected it to be.

[DB83]

You could still send a mediainfo report of the video BEFORE you cut/re-encoded it.

[Marvolo]

Ok. Why are you calling this a huffyuv video when the most simple of texts prooves that it is not.

Right, my bad. In the Blackmagic settings I put "8bit AVI YUF" as codec. So whatever, it's uncompressed then. Doesn't even matter (except in terms of file size). The observations I made above are the same...

[Brad]

I was simply not sure how I could export those 7 seconds without re-rendering.

Quoting myself regarding how to attach a proper sample to the forum. You can ignore the "Audio -> No audio" part if you want sound included in your comparison clips.

1. Download VirtualDub.
2. Open one of of the AVI files.
3. Change settings. Video -> Direct Stream Copy. Audio -> No audio.
4. Identify a good sample section* that lasts less than 30 seconds (under 10 seconds would be better). Mark In & Out points using the HOME and END keys on your keyboard or the black arrows immediately to the left of the frame counter (bottom of window).
5. File -> Save as AVI.
6. Attach directly to the forum when you reply here. There is a button labelled Upload files/Manage attachments. If your file is over 200MB, don't post it. You did something wrong in that case.

* For this sample I would like to see a shot of outdoors, in sunlight. Ideally with a portion of dark shadow details. Perhaps some brightly-saturated colors like red, orange.

[Marvolo]

You could still send a mediainfo report of the video BEFORE you cut/re-encoded it.

Here's MediaInfo of the original capture file as well as the settings of the Blackmagic Intensity Pro. It seems as if it doesn't even support HuffYUF capture. Only uncompressed, which is consistent with the steps mentioned in "that guide". They capture this way, too.


[Attachment 71960 - Click to enlarge]


[Attachment 71962 - Click to enlarge]

[Marvolo]

For this sample I would like to see a shot of outdoors, in sunlight. Ideally with a portion of dark shadow details. Perhaps some brightly-saturated colors like red, orange.

Thanks for the instructions. Haven't used VirtualDub before, but I will download it and follow your steps. Also I'm trying to find a scene that complies with your description. Might have to capture more for that. What I have captured so far barely included outdoor scenes.

[DB83]

Well it could matter if you are dealing with captures of an hour or more and including audio. Your system could well struggle to keep up and drop frames.

Even that 8 sec clip shows signs of drop-outs.

[Marvolo]

Even that 8 sec clip shows signs of drop-outs.

Where exactly? Compared it frame by frame with the DV file in my NLE and it was identical in frame and overall length. No frames dropped.

[Brad]

With VirtualDub, you should be able to capture using your Intensity Pro card straight to lossless (Huffyuv, my preference of Ut Video Codec, MagicYUV, Lagarith) instead of uncompressed.

I thought your capture was originally Huffyuv and then converted to uncompressed by your NLE.

In this case, it would be better to set VirtualDub as follows instead of what I say in Step 3 of my instructions:

Video -> Fast Recompress.
Video -> Compression...
Select Huffyuv or other lossless compressor. Configure for "Best" compression and ensure you aren't forcing a conversion from UYVY or YUY2 to RGB.

Also, I could be wrong, but I believe the Intensity Pro is needlessly padding the audio and increasing the size. To my knowledge, the audio output by Panasonic DVD recorders via HDMI should be 16-bit (not 24-bit).

[Marvolo]

Thanks Brad. Will do! I'd like Huffyuf rather than YUF as well.

But what about the heavy interlacing I observed above?

[Brad]

But what about the heavy interlacing I observed above?

Unfortunately, it's just a fact of life that typical lossless compressors in AVI can't flag the video as interlaced in a way that players and NLEs can read.

You have to manually tell VLC, etc. that your file is interlaced, or it will assume it's progressive.

Once you encode your capture to your final "delivery format" like H.264 you can flag it properly (or deinterlace with QTGMC and encode as progressive, if you prefer).

I also made this guide for "How to play interlaced lossless AVIs in PotPlayer". (You'll need to sign up for that forum before you can see the screenshots.)

I find that it works better than VLC for this purpose. But when you install PotPlayer, make sure to disable the crapware it tries to add...

[DB83]

Ok. It might have been the effect of the interlacing which should, as you say, not be there.

AVI is, typically, BFF. Also is there any audio setting ? 24 bit PCM seems a tad excessive.

[Sharc]

.... it seems to me as if there was some sort of interlacing / deinterlacing problem with the HuffYuf file. When I import the DV file into my NLE and pause it, everything looks fine, no interlacing lines (even though DV should be interlaced by default).

When I do the same with the lossless Huffyuf file, I immediately see interlacing lines when the video is paused.

Same when I play both with VLC player. VLC is set to deinterlace automatically, so when I play the DV file and I pause the video I don't see any interlacing. Also not during playback.
When I play the Huffyuf file with the VLC player (same settings), even though that automated-deinterlacing is turned on, I can see heavy interlacing lines during playback and on pause.

The DV file is correctly flagged as interlaced, so the player(s) can properly deinterlace it when told to do so.

Apart from standard uncompressed .avi having no interlace flag, your "huffyuv" capture is flawed or has been borked by the black magic settings or your NLE export. It cannot (not even forcedly) be deinterlaced because the field structure has been damaged by some vertical (non interlaced aware) resizing which happened at some stage in your workflow, it seems.

Leave the NLE out of the equation and upload a snippet of the capture directly to the forum.

Edit: oops, others were faster...

[johnmeyer]

At the risk of being impolite, the last 24 hours of this thread is why I still recommend DV capture for most people. According to members of the forum, this person is getting improper resizing; strange interlace artifacts; dropped frames; doesn't know if it is compressed or uncompressed; and the "better" capture takes up 5x the space.

I looked at the two captures closely and, as I expected, the color is slightly better in the non-DV capture, although Mediainfo reports both as being 4:2:2.

The following still frames from the two captures are what I think is the same frame, magnified considerably. At the risk of being annoyingly sarcastic, I am NOT overwhelmed by compression artifacts in the DV capture; I do not see any appreciable difference in detail; and the subtle color difference could probably be tweaked in post.

To be clear, I am not saying that DV is better than more modern capture methods, I am simply saying that almost everyone can get a DV capture to work without screwing up the aspect ratio (ah, something I forgot to mention above); dropping frames; getting the levels wrong (not a problem here); and on and on.

The things that matters are the VCR, the TBC, and the connections (i.e., using S-video instead of composite).

DV


HuffYUV

[Sharc]

AVI is, typically, BFF.

Classic .avi container does not provide for field order flagging, and tools sometimes just make a default assumption if they report something at all. Some tools try to analyze the file and try to conclude on the field parity.
Interlaced video should always be analyzed manually to be sure, also because the flags - if any - can simply be wrong.

[DB83]

^^ Fairy nuff. I probably had DV in mind when I wrote that. And DV is not a typical avi container.

[Marvolo]

At the risk of being impolite, the last 24 hours of this thread is why I still recommend DV capture for most people. According to members of the forum, this person is getting improper resizing; strange interlace artifacts; dropped frames; doesn't know if it is compressed or uncompressed; and the "better" capture takes up 5x the space.

The reason for the strange interlace artifacts has been named by @Brad. Seems like that's simply normal with uncompressed AVI files. So, this case is closed.
As for the "dropped frames"... You simply rely on a comment that @DB83 made, yet he never gave an answer when I asked, WHERE exactly those supposed dropped frames should be. I compared the YUF and the DV file in my NLE and both were the exact length. To the very last frame. No dropped frames in my opinion...

As for I wouldn't know if it is compressed or uncompressed... I certainly do know. I was just mistaken when I thought I had captured in HuffYUF when in fact it captured in YUF. Both ways are lossless capture and that's what I had in mind. I do not actually care for hard disk space. In 2023, that shouldn't be a hinderance anymore at all. What counts for me is a lossless capture. Be it YUF/uncompressed or HuffYUF/compressed.

Like I wrote above: I will follow Brads steps and continue to capture with VirtualDub, in hopes that I can capture in HuffYuf and a slightly more compressed that way. But it only counts for me that it's a lossless capture.

As for the wrong aspect ratio... I also already commented on that: I exported it as 5:4 just like the original capture file, but my NLE interpreted it as 4:3.

Once I have captured according to Brads method via VirtualDub, I will upload a new sample and include it right here into the forum, just as was explained.

Then ya'll can compare and analyze again... And after THAT you can evaluate whether DV or HuffYuf wins. Not just yet...

[Marvolo]

@Brad

I downloaded VirtualDub and even though it lists the Blackmagic Intensity Card in the "Devices" settings, I won't get any preview. It remains just black.
When I do it with the Intensity Pro Software I can see the preview video and can record. But the Intensity Software only allows for uncompressed capture, no HuffYuf.

In VirtualDub, I can choose between "Blackmagic WDM Capture (DirectShow) and "Decklink Video Capture (DirectShow) but either one just gives a black preview window. I can't see the playback video...

It's the same when I try to capture with my default NLE. I can choose "Blackmagic WDM Capture (DirectShow) but the preview window remains black.
At this time, it seems as if I can only record with the Blackmagic Software in uncompressed.

[lollo]

You cannot capture the digital stream from Panasonic with the BM using VirtualDub. It should be done with BM Software, and uncompressed (follow the guide of the German guys).

Keep going with the good work you are carrying out and provide some sample of the raw capture

[DB83]

^^ Possibly because vdub requires either a composite or s-video analogue signal. You are feeding it a digital signal.

It would be possible via the break-out cable but then you would run in to all the other issues documented in various forums.

[lollo]

Yes. Since the beginning the goal of Marvolo was to experiment the "HDMI capture flow from analog". The "capture card" is the Panasonic device, as I said several times. Many did not understood that, probably I was not clear enough since the beginning.

The BM card can be used also to capture an Analog signal, but that's another workflow.

[Marvolo]

Right. According to this post here, they wished for a HuffYuf codec in the Blackmagic Software as well. Their workaround was to capture uncompressed in Blackmagic and then convert it to HuffYuf via VirtualDub...

Duh...

[Marvolo]

The BM card can be used also to capture an Analog signal, but that's another workflow.

And that's not recommended according to "that guide", as the Blackmagic Card doesn't handle analogue signals very well...

So, as for Brad's instructions: seems like I will have to capture uncompressed first and then convert it to HuffYuf. Since both are lossless, this shouldn't be much of a problem.

[DB83]

Why bother ? All you gain is 50% in disk storage. I guess you will covert the capture to a more accessable delivery format regardless and even huffyuv is just an archival format as is uncompressed.

But if you have money to burn just invest in one of the recc usb dongles and pure huffyuv with vdub will not be an issue then.

[lollo]

And that's not recommended according to "that guide", as the Blackmagic Card doesn't handle analogue signals very well...

Yes. It is prone to drop frames (inserting black frames), but that can be fixed with a stabilized signal, and its digitized result is not that good. Several threads on the forum, and a (maybe not significant) example here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/410062-Which-capture-of-my-old-VHS-looks-the-best#post2694196

Since both are lossless, this shouldn't be much of a problem.

Absolutely. No drop in quality, that's the dvantege of working with "lossless" captures.