The old "war of opinion" - Capture 8mm tapes in DV or lossless?

[Alwyn]

Great stuff Sharc, thank you.

[Marvolo]

With respect, we do not know the level of experience the OP has with post-capture processing. Maybe he just wants the 'best' from the initial capture since avisynth has a steep learning curve.

It is my understanding that before you resort to post-capture tweaking methods such as digital editing whatsoever, you should create your source for editing in the best possible way. In German video forums they say (literally translated): "can't make gold out of shit".

So in order to get the best possible outcome you need the best capture to start with.

I am more curious as to what the new setup will achieve on its own and how it compares with what he can already achieve.

That, I am curious about as well and I will be able to find out this weekend, when all components will have arrived. Maybe it'll end up yielding no visible changes to the DV captures. This might very well be. But then, the fact that I avoided a lossy capture by not using DV is maybe enough to make me feel better in terms of long term archiving the master files.

But if I read that detailed guide correctly he will NOT get out of it what his topic is all about >> a comparison between DV and lossless.

Why not? I intend to do exactly this: comparing the 2008 (and 2023) DV captures with the lossless ones.

We know that DV is 4:2:0 (same as dvd btw) 13 gb per hour. Lossless should give you 4:2:2 at 35-40 gb per hour. I just await the reaction when he asks why his files, and still 4:2:2 are so much bigger.

Do you really believe I was not aware of the fact that a lossless capture produces higher file sizes? I mean, then again, it's not 1998 but 2023 where hard disk prices are really cheap relative to the overall storage capacity.
That said, lossless capture does not equal UMCOMPRESSED capture. You can capture lossless and still have your files compressed.

And why use a sledge-hammer to crack a nut ?. The author is so wrong when he states that only his set up will give correct analogue transfer. Totally dismissive of a usb method whereas the quality ones will give desired result and at a fraction of what I dread to think he is expending at present.

The overall experience with USB grabber devices has been rather bad. At least if you ask serious video forum boards. Many people have been down this rabbit hole and had to realize that if they want good results (according to the video norm), you usually avoid grabber options.

I can't think of professional production houses to do video restoration with a 10€ video grabber from ALDI.

Also, the individual parts are not really that expensive.. The most expensive thing in this new capture chain was definitely the Intensity Pro Capture Card. All the other components (Panasonic, cables, splitter) were between 2 and 20€ at most.

And the Intensity Pro Capture card may not be a bad investment anyway, might prove useful for other purposes in the future.

[DB83]

No worries. But I was trying to forewarn you that your new captures will NOT be lossless @ 35-40 gb per hour. They will be double that. And if your PC can not handle a capture at 25mb per sec you will drop frames.

But let's just wait and see.

[lordsmurf]

The overall experience with USB grabber devices has been rather bad.

The issue isn't USB, but merely bad cards being chosen. Many are just rebadged, so you can have multiple "cards" that are the same card, especially crappy Easycap cards.

The same was true of PCI (not PCIe), when almost all cards were using that comm.

[Alwyn]

Yes, that guide does itself no favours by saying:

Isn't that also possible with a USB grabber?
In short: NO!
These devices are almost all complete " scrap". The converters are hardly suitable even for stable signals to convert them properly.
The result is unstable videos with incorrect color values, asynchronous sound, etc. It is simply not possible to dub videos satisfactorily with "something like that"!
This statement is based on many tests and experiences.

The only possible difference between what most of us know about USB digitisers and this guy's suggested setup is the BM Intensity card. As I have said before, HDMI may have advantages (720 verses 704) but as far as quality goes, it's not all that different to a USB capture (based on my USB3HDCAP from Startech, which can capture using both techniques).

That whole tute reads more like a promo for BM gear and the Edius. I understand it's not a comparative analysis between the two techniques, but to make such a strong claim smacks of bias.

[Marvolo]

Could be true - I don't know that guy personally. But that video board is usually known for some of its professional and very well-experienced users in terms of video and audio.

The intensity pro has just arrived. I put it into my computer and installed the drivers. So far so good. The only thing missing now is the Panasonic and the splitter.

------------------------------------

Then there's this:
I was able to borrow another Digital8 camcorder from a friend for a couple days. Not that I needed it, but I was just curious what a different model would make out of my tapes. After all they say (and I have proven this by comparing the 2008 capture with my own capture) that different players/models result in different playback quality.

And sure enough: One tape that played just fine in the 2008 camcorder and my own, here with this neighbor's camcorder it will only produce image, but no sound. Hardly any sound. There a few seconds where I can hear sound coming through but that's it.

I cleaned the video heads before playback and boy were they dirty, so I assume it's not a dirty-heads-issue. Apart from that the picture looks crystal clear. No noise, no jitter, nothing that would hint at dirty heads. I just don't seem to be getting any consistent sound with this model.

I'm quite surprised how much playback can differ between models. I seem to have been lucky that my own camcorder model could play my tapes just fine.

Is it normal that there's such a vast range in playback quality between D8 models??

[Bogilein]

Yes, that guide does itself no favours by saying:

Isn't that also possible with a USB grabber?
In short: NO!
These devices are almost all complete " scrap". The converters are hardly suitable even for stable signals to convert them properly.
The result is unstable videos with incorrect color values, asynchronous sound, etc. It is simply not possible to dub videos satisfactorily with "something like that"!
This statement is based on many tests and experiences.

The only possible difference between what most of us know about USB digitisers and this guy's suggested setup is the BM Intensity card. As I have said before, HDMI may have advantages (720 verses 704) but as far as quality goes, it's not all that different to a USB capture (based on my USB3HDCAP from Startech, which can capture using both techniques).

That whole tute reads more like a promo for BM gear and the Edius. I understand it's not a comparative analysis between the two techniques, but to make such a strong claim smacks of bias.

You should not only read the tutorial but also the 41-page forum article, where a lot is explained and tests of many USB grabbers were made.

https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/46713-zeitgem%C3%A4%C3%9Fes-hochwertiges-an...usb-oder-hdmi/

The tutorial was the result of about 4 years (2011-2015) of testing on various German-language video forums. The best thing to do is to ask the well-known user "Skiller" here on the board, who was also involved in the project.

[Marvolo]

You should not only read the tutorial but also the 68-page forum article, where a lot is explained and tests of many USB grabbers were made..

Auto-translated by Google Translate here.

[DB83]

68 pages ? Admin must have deleted 27 of them before locking it

Well I, for one, do not have the energy to even read 41 pages. I see comments about some random devices and some I have not heard of before.


Even so, discussion about USB (regret even raising that now) is moot given that the OP has his capture device.

[Marvolo]

I'm quite surprised how much playback can differ between models. I seem to have been lucky that my own camcorder model could play my tapes just fine.

Is it normal that there's such a vast range in playback quality between D8 models??

I'm still surprised that I can't get any audio with the borrowed D8 model while the picture is just fine. Any explanations?

[DB83]

You said you cleaned the video head but surely, as with a vcr, the camera also has an audio head. But would your friend appreciate you meddling with his equipment ?

[Marvolo]

You said you cleaned the video head but surely, as with a vcr, the camera also has an audio head.

No, not surely at all.
We're talking about Video8 / 8mm systems.

I quote:

Unlike most video formats at the time, Video 8 does not need sync and sound heads. The former were replaced by a technology that was also used in Video 2000. Separate sound heads could be dispensed with through the consistent use of FM sound. In addition, some recorders also had the option of recording sound digitally (PCM).

This meant that Video8's standard audio was of a far higher quality than that of its rivals.(VHS Hi-Fi could not be used on camcorders, because the required four audio heads could not be placed on the miniaturized drum.) Early Video8 camcorders used mono AFM sound, but this was later made stereo. This cost less than including 8mm's optional digital stereo audio track. Linear audio did have the advantage that (unlike either AFM system) it could be re-recorded without disturbing the video, doing this in 8mm required a deck that supported digital audio.

[DB83]

Well I'll pass on this except that you are using a Digital8 camera not a Video8 one.

[Marvolo]

Well I'll pass on this except that you are using a Digital8 camera not a Video8 one.

If audio on video8 systems is written on tape as FM audio on the same track as video, then I suppose that a Digital8 camcorder, capable of playing back Hi8 and 8mm, must have the same arrangement inside as a normal video8 system in order to play back video and audio. In other words, it must be identical in all 3 systems. Which, I believe, was the big advantage at the time. People who used to record on Hi8 and 8mm could easily upgrade to digital without giving up the former formats.

After all, Digital8 is identical to MiniDV in specifications, except that it uses 8mm tape.

[Bogilein]

68 pages ? Admin must have deleted 27 of them before locking it

Well I, for one, do not have the energy to even read 41 pages. I see comments about some random devices and some I have not heard of before.


Even so, discussion about USB (regret even raising that now) is moot given that the OP has his capture device.

There has been a change in the forum software and many pictures are missing in the current version. I have saved a few websites from the change of the forum software and can therefore compare them well. I have adjusted the number of pages I mentioned in my post from 68 to the current version of 41.

[Marvolo]

I can't start the capture as I'm still waiting for that damn splitter to arrive. It was due today but now it got delayed. Probably can't begin to capture until monday which really sucks. Everything else is ready.

Is there really no other way to bypass HDCP other than with that stupid splitter? That said, truly working splitters that remove HDCP are getting quite scarce. It seems as if the manufacturers have been told to no longer produce devices that could bypass HDCP protection, for legal reasons I guess. After all, you could use it to copy protected films or other material.

So finding one that still works is turning into a game of luck. If I'm not lucky, I will have to send it back to amazon and try to get a refund... It's already a pain in the ass even though that thing hasn't even arrived...

I don't get any signal on the Blackmagic card when I connect it right to the Panasonic...

[DB83]

Well I guess that the dvd-recorder has to be set to tell it where the output goes. One can hardly expect that composite and hdmi are automatic.

But then does the dvd-recorder output as composite (it should) but the BM card expects component - did you acquirre the older intensity pro or the newer 4k version - and then only one of the breakout inputs accepts composite (the manual should clarify that).


But as for hdmi splitters you have entered a mine-field. Despite the hdmi/hdcp version what worked previously may no longer work now. There are tons of posts on here 'bout this. And even that guide (some years old now) makes reference to that.

[Marvolo]

Well I guess that the dvd-recorder has to be set to tell it where the output goes. One can hardly expect that composite and hdmi are automatic.

I do get a picture via HDMI-out on my TV. The player auto-detects which output it has to use, depending on a connecting cable at an output. I just don't get any picture when connected to the Blackmagic card (HDMI input).

But then does the dvd-recorder output as composite (it should) but the BM card expects component - did you acquirre the older intensity pro or the newer 4k version - and then only one of the breakout inputs accepts composite (the manual should clarify that).

the older one, not the 4K one. And the HDMI-inputs are working fine. As soon as I connect my laptop with the Intensity Pro, I do get a picture, ready to record. Just not with the Panasonic. Most likely due to HDCP protection.

I don't record via breakout inputs at all. They didn't even ship a breakout cable in the first place. It was only the card itself. No manual, no disc, no cable. So I only have the HDMI ports to use anyway.

But as for hdmi splitters you have entered a mine-field. Despite the hdmi/hdcp version what worked previously may no longer work now. There are tons of posts on here 'bout this. And even that guide (some years old now) makes reference to that.

Yes, I am aware... In "that guide" they mentioned a workaround though. Apparently, if you use a JVC DR-MH300, then you don't get HDCP problems at the HDMI-output.

@Bogilein mentioned this in "that guide".

I'll wait for the splitter that I've ordered though. For now...

[johnmeyer]

Are you really just capturing tapes? I ask because there should be no HDCP if the source is home movies from an analog source.

There are several other issues that can cause you not to be able to record HDMI. As one example, my HDMI passes through my Denon receiver, and when I want to record HDMI, I have to temporarily change one of the Denon setup settings. If I don't, I get no audio. Sound familiar?

I have a splitter, and it will strip out the HDCP signal (if you get the right one), but I suspect that may not be your problem.

[Marvolo]

Are you really just capturing tapes? I ask because there should be no HDCP if the source is home movies from an analog source.

The way I understand it is that the Panasonic Player gives out a HDCP signal at its HDMI-Out-Port. TVs and screens don't care, they understand the HDCP protocoll and will show a picture.

The Intensity Capture Card, however, does not understand HDCP and thus shows no picture at all. It's not even as far as capturing copyrighted material or not. I can't even see the Panasonic's menu or anything else. We're not even speaking of capturing at this phase.

I have a splitter, and it will strip out the HDCP signal (if you get the right one), but I suspect that may not be your problem.

I think that this is exactly the very problem. I need a splitter that kills the HDCP signal that the Panasonic player (by default) outputs at its HDMI-port.

Like I said, once I connect the player to a screen or TV, everything is fine and I see a picture. Not so when it's connected to the Intensity card as this card doesn't seem to be able to handle a HDCP encoded signal, unlike TVs or Screens.

[Bogilein]

My tip with the JVC DR-MH300 is not in "the guide". As soon as the JVC even smells the slightest copy protection like Macrovision, it doesn't help and is only recommended if it can be bought at a good price. I wouldn't spend more than 30 euros on it. The user "Oln" has written about the device several times, just seak for his postings here on the board.

[Cornucopia]

This is how it works:

1. non-HDCP hdmi signal - OK for everything
2. HDCP hdmi signal - only OK when EACH & EVERY link in the chain supports HDCP.

• Most ALL displays (TVs, Monitors, Projectors) from the last decade support HDCP (though some touch-enabled versions do not, and some do not support the newest version of HDCP).
• Switchers that do support HDCP (AND are compliant with enforcing and passing through the HDCP throughout all outputs) will allow passthrough of the video/audio signal to an HDCP-compliant display.
• Switchers that do NOT support HDCP (or ignore it) will not get a signal, because the source will not pass it along if it doesn't see HDCP compliance at the sink.
• Capture cards that do NOT support HDCP (or ignore it) will not get a signal, for the same reason.
• Capture cards that DO support HDCP will not get a signal, because the source will recognize that it is a capture card and will say "no, sorry, no copying allowed" and not give a signal.
• ONLY capture cards that a sneaky and "report" that they are HDCP compliant or that they are not capture cards but rather switchers instead, and "report" that all the downstream devices are also HDCP compliant, BUT actually pass through whatever to them and strip HDCP, are the cards than can get a signal.

However, those last group of cards are few and far between, and are slowly but surely getting made legally (via not being allowed to market in a country) and technologically (because HDCP devices that recognize a bypassing device's signature will disable it/lock it out and "blacklist" it) made obsolete and unavailable.


Scott

[Marvolo]

However, those last group of cards are few and far between, and are slowly but surely getting made legally (via not being allowed to market in a country) and technologically (because HDCP devices that recognize a bypassing device's signature will disable it/lock it out and "blacklist" it) made obsolete and unavailable.

Which will be the death of capturing using a Panasonic Player as TBC/stabilization. Instead, they should implement it in a way that only copyrighted material should trigger the HDCP mechanism to go off. What's with old self-made home videos?! No-one cares if they get copied or digitized. Instead of blocking the HDMI port of any player out of fear someone might abuse it for copyright infringement, they should make the player recognize if the content which it is passing on is actually copyrighted or not. Problem solved...

It used to work just fine that way with Macrovision and VHS...

[Cornucopia]

Home material can be simply file copied from one medium to another, problem solved.
Your assertion of "they should..." presumes that distribution companies want you to be able to copy. They don't. The whole point of DMCA, the realigned WIPO rules, and HDCP, and to a lesser extent the analog sunset was that they were pissed that people were able to get around MV. Rovi is one of the main movers behind HDCP, and the other types of CP.

Scott

[Sharc]

Which will be the death of capturing using a Panasonic Player as TBC/stabilization.

Not quite. You can still take the route of VHS player -> Panasonic DVD recorder (recommended model) for stabilization -> USB dongle (recommended model) or capture card.
Disadvantage is you would have one more A/D - D/A conversion in the loop, and possibly little more level tweaking issues.

Edit:
.... but benefit from a better control of the "4:3 aka 1.33 vs 1.36 / 2%" AR issue ....

[DB83]

^^ To paraphrase John Cleese and Fawlty Towers "Do not mention USB here. I did once but I think I got away with it"

[Marvolo]

^^ To paraphrase John Cleese and Fawlty Towers "Do not mention USB here. I did once but I think I got away with it"

Ugh...
Since you have obviously suffered such a trauma, just because "that guide" warns against using any 3€ ALDI grabber for digitising, here is proof that USB also has a certain justification, even if you have to be more careful which product you use for it - at least if you want to digitise according to standards. Maybe this can heal you from your shock. The winner there was the Terratec Cinergy T-Stick Video HD (German manufacturer).

----------------------------------------

On a different note: the splitter is definitely coming today. So if I'm lucky and it works, I'll be able to make the first comparisons between DV capture and analogue, lossless HuffYuf 4:2:2 capture.

Will keep you updated.

[DB83]

Never bought a 3 euro dongle from Aldi. I gather that the 5 euro ones from Lidl were better. Maybe you did not appreciate what a Hauppauge usb-live2 (the one I used in my comparison) is ?. BTW another Geman 'Manufacturer'. Except that there is no such thing as a 'German Manufacturer'. Made in Taiwan may be more appropiate to both.

Anyway. Enough of this. I do await to be 'educated' in your success in getting Huffy 4:2:2 out of your new setup if and when you get a working splitter.

[lollo]

Maybe you did not appreciate what a Hauppauge usb-live2 (the one I used in my comparison) is ?

The german guys do:

https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/48489-blackmagic-intensity-shuttle-thunderb...106#post466106

https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/48489-blackmagic-intensity-shuttle-thunderb...112#post466112

https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/48499-mittelwertiges-digitalisieren-von-vhs...241#post466241

https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/48538-panasonic-nv-dv2000/&postID=466583#post466583

https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/48246-vhs-kassetten-digitalisieren-ersatz-f...586#post466586

If here the reference for capturing are Brad and oln and few others, there you can blindly trust Bogilein and Skiller

[Marvolo]

Google Translate:

https://gleitz-info.translate.goog/forum/index.php?thread/48489-blackmagic-intensity-s...app#post466106

https://gleitz-info.translate.goog/forum/index.php?thread/48489-blackmagic-intensity-s...app#post466112

https://gleitz-info.translate.goog/forum/index.php?thread/48499-mittelwertiges-digital...app#post466241

https://gleitz-info.translate.goog/forum/index.php?thread/48538-panasonic-nv-dv2000/&p...app#post466583

https://gleitz-info.translate.goog/forum/index.php?thread/48246-vhs-kassetten-digitali...app#post466586