The old "war of opinion" - Capture 8mm tapes in DV or lossless?

[Marvolo]

Methinks, and I certainly am, most on here would take great offence that the methods we employ in converting analogue video to digital are not done utilizing ' video standards and the norm'. In my book, such a comment stinks of eliteism.

Methinks that it's a bit of an overreaction to take personal offense at something that I merely quoted from "that guide", an experience which is based on countless of testing and experimentations:

Can't that also be done with a USB grabber?

In short: NO!
These devices are almost all complete "junk". The converters are hardly suitable even for stable signals to convert them properly.
The result is unstable videos with wrong color values, asynchronous sound, etc. It is simply not possible to capture videos satisfactorily with "something like this"!
This statement is based on many tests and experiences.

Surely, my current set-up will not be the ONLY set-up that achieves results in accordance with video standards and "the norm"... But usually, those cheap 20€ no-name products will not.

Even the choice of certain Panasonic DVD-Recorders/players such as the one I got, is not arbitrary, but based on tons of excessive testing and experimenting:

Why not use devices from other manufacturers with HDMI output?

Basically, these also work according to the same principle and can theoretically be used for converting to HDMI. We tested all series from Sony/Pioneer, JVC, Toshiba, Samsung and LG - even a few "no-names". None of the built-in A/D converters of these other devices meet all the criteria of analog-to-digital conversion as perfectly as the Panasonic devices.

Why not connect the D8-camcorder/VHS-machine etc directly to a analogue capture-card?

The reason is simple: the analog inputs of this (Blackmagic) capture card behave very "peculiar". The technical values of the inputs deviate slightly from the norm. The audio level and white point of the digitized signals is not standard. Unstable signals, directly from VHS devices can't be recorded with it practically at all without dropouts.
We therefore use the card as a pure "digital interface" to capture HDMI signals uncompressed into the PC. We leave the digitizing of the analog tape signals to the converters in the DVD recorder.

Why no other HDMI capture card (so called "game capture cards")?

Yes, there are various other capture cards that can read HDMI signals. However, these all compress to H.264 format on the hardware side. This is what we (mostly) want to achieve in the end, but only after final processing! For this we need UNCOMPRESSED/LOSSLESS video data in the PC, and as far as we know only this Blackmagic card provides it.
Should there be another (possibly cheaper) and "pure" HDMI recording card at some point, which can capture uncompressed, then this will certainly become an alternative.

If you now think you have found a way to meet all these criteria, feel free to name it and I'll pass it on. I'm sure they'll be happy about any working alternative they can add to that list...

[Sharc]

RE: Skiurlaub

There is a drop between field 7 and 8 for FFVH . This time there is no compensatory duplicate field inserted

Hmmm, I can't identify a missed field there. And the FFVH and DV seem to be the same with respect to the captured fields (apart from field parity).
How did you arrive at this conclusion?

[lordsmurf]

the advantage to avoid lossy A/D conversion,

A>D, D>A, A>D>A, etc -- it's not necessarily lossy. Devices are lossy. The method is not. (Very similar to composite video, which gets a bad reputation, because most devices have horrid implementations.)

e is still according to the video norm
many of those out-of-the-box solutions e.g. grabbers etc. produce nothing which meets the standards or the norm

What "norm" do you refer to? Specifics needed.

--> see those long threads on testing and analysing in the German forum.

Link?
I'm always dubious of "testing" because there is bias. Not "bias" as in nefarious, but bias of omission, usage bias, observation bias. Sometimes tests bias to a limited set of parameters, or again unrealistic test patterns.

EDIT:

Surely, my current set-up will not be the ONLY set-up

Ah, okay, this makes sense now (I see the link above now). Your using low-end gear, including an overpriced Blackmagic. That's all this is.

Blackmagic cards are known problems, the "peculiar" (over generous term) that is mentioned for it.

Next comes a consumer Panasonic ES10/15 type DVD recorder, with its minimalist TBC(ish), aka a strong+crippled line with a non-TBC frame sync. It is what it is. Not a true TBC, fails in various situations. Better than nothing, but not true TBC whatsoever. Cheap price, and the consequence is off values with IRE and luma, posterization (luma ghosting), and some others. Not a bad device, but not a "TBC replacement" of any kind, at least not without some weak frame chasing.

Then you use a generic HDMI>data adapter.

The VCR in that guide is thrift store junk quality.

That's not any sort of "norm", but a bare minimum setup to not make unwatchable crap conversions.

[Brad]

I'm trying to get Vdub to capture from my BM card. Maybe if I stop capturing uncompressed, it will improve the situation and avoid drops completely?

I assume, the reason why it won't capture with Vdub is the same reason why it won't capture with my MAGIX NLE. Even though it recognizes the BM card and I can choose between Decklink and WDM drivers, the preview window just remains black. No signal coming through.

Well, it is called Blackmagic.

Media Express doesn't have a dropped frame counter, so the best you can do with it is enabling the option to stop capture as soon as it drops a single frame.


I don't know why the German guys act like Blackmagic is the only option for lossless HDMI capture. That may have been basically true when they first started researching, but I've had other cards for years that work just fine in VirtualDub: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/376473-Lossless-HDMI-capture-devices-comparison-screenshots

I believe someone earlier in the thread also suggested you try AmaRecTV for capture. "Blackmagic Design Intensity Pro" is specifically mentioned on the developer's page: http://www.amarectv.com/english/amarectv_e.htm

[lollo]

A>D, D>A, A>D>A, etc -- it's not necessarily lossy. Devices are lossy. The method is not.

You can't be serious. I won't even reply to this, sorry.

[johnmeyer]

Are you repeating the same concept I expressed when I replied, and then contradicting your first statement, or am I misunderstanding something?

Does not matter, it's an Off Topic anyhow...

I think I am mostly agreeing with you.

As you point out, since it's OT, we've probably thrashed it enough.

[poisondeathray]

RE: Skiurlaub

There is a drop between field 7 and 8 for FFVH . This time there is no compensatory duplicate field inserted

Hmmm, I can't identify a missed field there. And the FFVH and DV seem to be the same with respect to the captured fields (apart from field parity).
How did you arrive at this conclusion?

Look closely , while separating the Fields . There is a small jump between field 7 and 8

FFVideoSource("Skiurlaub 1996_huffyuf.avi")
AssumeTFF().SeparateFields()

Another clue is the color of the fields. Notice the hue of the fields alternate, blue, magenta, blue, magenta... as you step through. Go through later in the video also to see the pattern . Use histogram("levels") if you cannot "see" it. Notice the "U" channel histogram goes left,right,left,right as you step through the fields. 7 and 8 do not, they have the same offset hue mg color , because there is a missing "7.5"

You can also compare to the DV version (it happens to not have a drop in this case, but don't always assume so) . Field 8 in the DV version is missing point in time from the FFVH version

[lordsmurf]

A>D, D>A, A>D>A, etc -- it's not necessarily lossy. Devices are lossy. The method is not.

You can't be serious. I won't even reply to this, sorry.

I'm fairly certain you've only seen a limited number of video items to date, and are speaking with that limited experience here. And that's fine. But what you state isn't true for all devices. In the consumer realm, it is often true. But it's due to devices, not the signal path. Even D>D can actually be lossy, it's not just A>A or A<>D (or A<>D<>A).

[Sharc]

RE: Skiurlaub

There is a drop between field 7 and 8 for FFVH . This time there is no compensatory duplicate field inserted

Hmmm, I can't identify a missed field there. And the FFVH and DV seem to be the same with respect to the captured fields (apart from field parity).
How did you arrive at this conclusion?

Look closely , while separating the Fields . There is a small jump between field 7 and 8

FFVideoSource("Skiurlaub 1996_huffyuf.avi")
AssumeTFF().SeparateFields()

Another clue is the color of the fields. Notice the hue of the fields alternate, blue, magenta, blue, magenta... as you step through. Go through later in the video also to see the pattern . Use histogram("levels") if you cannot "see" it. Notice the "U" channel histogram goes left,right,left,right as you step through the fields. 7 and 8 do not, they have the same offset hue mg color , because there is a missing "7.5"

You can also compare to the DV version (it happens to not have a drop in this case, but don't always assume so) . Field 8 in the DV version is missing point in time from the FFVH version

Yep! I can see it all now. Thanks.

[Sharc]

A>D, D>A, A>D>A, etc -- it's not necessarily lossy. Devices are lossy. The method is not.

You can't be serious. I won't even reply to this, sorry.

I'm fairly certain you've only seen a limited number of video items to date, and are speaking with that limited experience here. And that's fine. But what you state isn't true for all devices. In the consumer realm, it is often true. But it's due to devices, not the signal path. Even D>D can actually be lossy, it's not just A>A or A<>D (or A<>D<>A).

"Lossy" in the sense that A->D conversion requires low pass filtering of the source to prevent aliasing (Nyquist-Shannon-Kotelnikov). Also, it introduces quantization noise due to the finite resolution of the converters (8bit, 10bit etc.). This is not strictly lossy but deteriorates the SNR by 3 dB with every duplication of A<->D conversions, assuming same resolution of the ADCs.
D-D when understood as a digital copy is not "lossy". It may however be subject to bit errors due to disturbance and noise.

[lordsmurf]

D-D when understood ... however be subject to bit errors due to disturbance and noise.

Yep, essentially semantics, net result is loss.

[Alwyn]

Can't that also be done with a USB grabber?

In short: NO!
These devices are almost all complete "junk". The converters are hardly suitable even for stable signals to convert them properly.
The result is unstable videos with wrong color values, asynchronous sound, etc. It is simply not possible to capture videos satisfactorily with "something like this"!
This statement is based on many tests and experiences.

I mentioned this before a few pages back. In the same language as these guys are using, I'll reply: Rubbish!

There are plenty of good (ie comparable to HDMI) digitisers out there: GV-USB2, USB Live2, 710-USB, USB3HDCAP, as well, allegedly, as the ATIs (which I have no experience with). HDMI certainly isn't the be-all-and-end-all, that is for sure.

[johnmeyer]

Just so I know, what is a "USB grabber?" I have a Hauppauge 1512 HD-PVR 2 and it connects to my computer via a USB connection. The captures seem to be pretty darned good, at least for offloading my DVR.

So, is device "junk?" It doesn't seem like it to me, but what do I know?

[lollo]

I'm fairly certain you've only seen a limited number of video items to date, and are speaking with that limited experience here

I am an Analog Designer, and as such designed many A/D and D/A converters on my career. As I already said, the rest of what you say is not worth a reply.

[Sharc]

Just so I know, what is a "USB grabber?" I have a Hauppauge 1512 HD-PVR 2 and it connects to my computer via a USB connection. The captures seem to be pretty darned good, at least for offloading my DVR.

So, is device "junk?" It doesn't seem like it to me, but what do I know?

I understand that "USB grabbers" (translated term) are those external devices which typically provide at their input 4 plugs: Yellow for composite video, Red and White for 2-channel audio, plus an S-Video connector. At their output the "grabber" provides the digitized data stream via an USB connector to the PC.
There are siginificant quality differences with these devices, see all the threads and posts in this forum. None of these "grabbers" offer any kind of TBC functionality AFAIK, means that a VCR with TBC, an extra external TBC or a DVD recorder in passthrough mode is recommended to 'stabilize' the picture (prevent at least the line wobbling and in case of composite video provide a decent Y/C filter). Also, there are quality differences with respect to Y/C separation in case of a composite input signal.
Any "Proc-amp" adjustments for levels correction are on the digitized signal only. There is no means to control the levels at the analog input side via some SW settings (usually the same applies for DVD recorders used as A/D converters or in passthrough).
There are some recommended types which give good results if one is aware of the pitfalls and takes action accordingly. But as we have seen in this thread there is no plug-and-play even when we avoid such "grabbers" and take the 'HDMI lossless' route instead.
Therefore I can't share the strict "No" in 'that guide'.

[Marvolo]

I think @Sharc got the full picture pretty well. At least that's the way I understood it.

@everyone else taking offense:
like I said before: I am not the author of "that guide" - as someone who is fairly new to capturing analog, I have merely been following instructions. However, I have been dealing with video capturing long enough to know, just Sharc elaborated, that there can be MASSIVE differences in quality when using one of these cheap USB grabbers that you often find for a couple bucks in convenient stores... I came across this warning as early as 2007, when I started dealing with video capturing more profoundly. That's why at the time I bought a Canopus ADVC-300 A/D converter...

But if you want to clearly know what's behind this set-up I'm following, I suggest you go ask the authors of "that guide" who tested these steps extensively and thoroughly. Maybe @Skiller or @Bogilein can chime in as well. As far as I know they're part of that German video board, maybe even part of the testing team?

Sure, maybe this set-up is the "bare minimum" as Lordsmurf pointed out, but then again, how many of you use professional studio equipment such as 10.000€ line or frame-TBCs in their setup? I mean, there's always room for more and you can always climb up the ladder. At one point, you can just stop capturing yourself and hand in your tapes to a professional TV or film production house and have them convert it with their 100.000€ equipment.

The question remaining, then, is whether you'll see any difference in your (many times not even) semi-professionally recorded home video tapes...

[Sharc]

But if you want to clearly know what's behind this set-up I'm following, I suggest you go ask the authors of "that guide" who tested these steps extensively and thoroughly. Maybe @Skiller or @Bogilein can chime in as well. As far as I know they're part of that German video board, maybe even part of the testing team?

Frankly, you may do this, but I doubt that anyone should warm up this soup again and even start to discuss video and capture basics. The topic has been discussed over and over in the past, in this forum and over at digitalfaq and doom9. Facts, opinions and religion .....
And, apart from crappy devices and buggy SW, many problems are/were self-inflicted.

Capturing is the most important first step. But then comes the editing and encoding for distribution with another plethora of compromises. Easy to spoil excellent captures at that stage. But even this may be fair enough to preserve family memories for "uneducated" viewers.

[DB83]

Well, the 'offense' is quite simple (and I merely respond not to be accused of trolling)

We can all read. But when you accept what is written and accept that ad-verbatim and go beyond that to preach to others that this is the only way there must be a reaction.


I do not confess to being an 'expert'. I do this mostly for my own pleasure. Do I make mistakes ? Sure. But we all learn from these. And I also learn from reading on here and if I can also pass on from my own experience then I believe I provide service to this community.


Now I really will retire back to my 'cave'

[Sharc]

Well, the 'offense' is quite simple (and I merely respond not to be accused of trolling)

We can all read. But when you accept what is written and accept that ad-verbatim and go beyond that to preach to others that this is the only way there must be a reaction.


I do not confess to being an 'expert'. I do this mostly for my own pleasure. Do I make mistakes ? Sure. But we all learn from these. And I also learn from reading on here and if I can also pass on from my own experience then I believe I provide service to this community.


Now I really will retire back to my 'cave'

Are you talking to me? Sorry if I should have offended you or anyone else. Was definitely not my intention.

[DB83]

^^ No m8

[Marvolo]

If you mean me, I myself have never claimed that the steps I'm following were "the only way" either. At least not to my knowledge. If so, prove me wrong.

Anyway, I have stopped capturing for the time being until I have found out how I can make sure that no drops or other faults happen during capture. Also, I haven't been able to make VDub work as capturing software. Might resort to the other program that was recommended on here twice...

I am aware of this "religious war" of beliefs going on about this topic. That's why I made the thread in the first place. Not to convince anybody, but to see if the route I am going might give an answer to this ever-on-going question. But probably it has not and will not.

[lordsmurf]

Just so I know, what is a "USB grabber?"

It's just a USB capture card. The "grabber" has an integrated RCA/comp/svid wire bundle, not various plugs. These are almost all various cheap Chinese capture cards, similar or identical to the cheap Easycaps (Easycraps).

IAlso, I haven't been able to make VDub work as capturing software.

Most VirtualDub issues are user error, wrong settings. (Follow the guide.)

I am aware of this "religious war" of beliefs going on about this topic.

No. Religious wars are people arguing about made-up BS. This involves facts, math, science, and interpretation of said data. The main tug of war is between cheap vs. quality, sometimes lazy/stubborn vs. doing it properly.

not worth a reply.

I don't understand why you always try to be so confrontational. No need for that.

[Alwyn]

Just so I know, what is a "USB grabber?"

Any gadget that has input sockets (Composite, S-video most times, audio) on one end and a USB A plug on the other end.

Of course, there are good "grabbers" and bad "grabbers".

[johnmeyer]

Just so I know, what is a "USB grabber?"

Any gadget that has input sockets (Composite, S-video most times, audio) on one end and a USB A plug on the other end.

Of course, there are good "grabbers" and bad "grabbers".

That's what I thought, but I think the term "USB Grabber," as used in this forum, needs to be revised somewhat. I think most people who are trashing these devices are talking about something like this $13 device:

VHS to Digital Converter, Video Capture Card USB 2.0

The reason I am bother to write this is that sloppy language ("USB Grabber") makes it sound as though any external device which feeds video into the PC via a USB connection is, to use this thread's favorite derogatory word: "Junk."

I use this product:

Hauppauge 1512 HD-PVR 2 High Definition Personal Video Recorder with Digital Audio

and I have all the accessories so I can capture from HDMI; component, composite, and S-Video.

It sure seems to me to produce excellent results from my VCRs which have TBC built in. But, according to the definitions in the forum -- not just yours, Alwyn ... I'm not picking on you -- my Hauppauge is probably a "USB grabber" because it has analog connections on one end (as well as HDMI and S/PDIF) and a USB output on the other.

I do think people need to be more precise in the terms they use because they confuse everyone with the term "USB Grabber," not only the neophytes who are asking for help, but even someone like me who, while not an expert, am pretty far down the learning curve. People here should try hard to differentiate between the $13 "dongle" (the word I would use) and the $170 Hauppauge PVR2.

P.S. I note that the $13 product is defined as a "card" and some people in this forum use that word as well. While I'm trying to get people to be more precise, let me point out that, historically, "card" is used for for something like this:

Hauppauge Colossus 2 PCI Express Internal 1080p HD-PVR

namely something which plugs into the PCie port inside of a PC. Even though the manufacturer does call it a "card," I think that is a misnomer.

[Alwyn]

John, I wholeheartedly agree with you, on the "grabber" and "card". For that reason I use the term digitiser.

[Marvolo]

and I have all the accessories so I can capture from HDMI

Would that be worth a try instead of the Blackmagic Card I'm using at the moment? Or wouldn't it basically make any difference as both devices simply record a (already) digitial stream?

[Sharc]

John, I wholeheartedly agree with you, on the "grabber" and "card". For that reason I use the term digitiser.

Grabber, dongle, digitizer, "card" .... you name it.
Luckily, most people reporting issues here refer to a specific model so one can google for it. Technical specifications of these devices are generally very poor and minimalistic though, so one has to trust user experience and recommendations, and eventually do your own tests.

[DB83]

Why not just call it a USB Capture Device. Or would that be too simplistic ?

[lollo]

and I have all the accessories so I can capture from HDMI

Would that be worth a try instead of the Blackmagic Card I'm using at the moment? Or wouldn't it basically make any difference as both devices simply record a (already) digitial stream?

No, it will not capture lossless/uncompressed, but encodes to h264 on the fly by hardware

[Skiller]

But if you want to clearly know what's behind this set-up I'm following, I suggest you go ask the authors of "that guide" who tested these steps extensively and thoroughly. Maybe @Skiller or @Bogilein can chime in as well. As far as I know they're part of that German video board, maybe even part of the testing team?

Yes, I was involved in the testing.
When that capture procedure was developed and tested – it was 2013 – there were indeed pretty much no other options for ingesting HDMI video into a computer losslessly other than the Blackmagic Intensity Pro (PCIe) and the Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle (USB 3).
But of course any capture device able to do that is fine for the job, and there are more options today.

I don't particularly agree with the VCR recommendations of that guide as well, but that was not the main focus of it anyways.