I would like to follow up on the previous thread here:
I have some minor horizontal jitter in my SECAM-L video recordings. My VCR has TBC and it stabilizes 90% of the image, however, there is still some horizontal jitter left. I would like to buy some passthrough DVD recorder that can fix that. Lollo has been extremely helpful and explained the issue to me in detail [thanks again, lollo, youre a lifesaver and a superstar] and suggested DVR-530H. As this is another spend, i just want to make sure that this DVD recorder will work with SECAM tapes so just wanted to ask people if they have experience with it in terms of SECAM-L tapes before I place my order.
In case you suggest other DVD recorders, please, be aware that my JVC HR-S9700MS only has S-Video output (no scart or composite), so S-video input/output is a must, please.
thanks a lot, lollo and others for any guidance. You guys have already saved me lots of time and money with your precious advises.
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Are we talking about retail tapes, Secam B aswell (possibly with macrovision embedded) here ? If not probably worth it (i did my experiment with the hr-s7700 (edited)) if you force the pal output (transcoding) of the vcr the signal will be jitter-corrected with a good dvd recorder (panasonic or sony, i used a sony). Though, I haven't tried with s-video (long story) i see no reason it wouldn't work
Last edited by themaster1; 19th Jun 2023 at 09:52.
So it seems that this has come down to either lollo's choice of DVR-530H or Panasonic ES-10/ES-15.
I checked the manual of DVR-530H and it does support SECAM on both input and output and when compared to Panasonic, it seems to have more options. I just placed my order for DVR-530H and have one month free return option. Will test it when it arrives and in case it will misbehave, i will get ES-10/ES-15.
Thank you all for your help. This forum is truly one of the kind. I have never seen such amazing and supportive community... <3
Last edited by rgr; 21st Jun 2023 at 07:03.
I would really try to get ES10, but it can be a little hard. In Poland they arent often sold so i had to wait for it to show up. People usually don't know its capabilities and sell it for a low price. I got two ES10s because of the price (70 pln for one with non working DVD without remote and 90 pln for fully working one with remote, so basicly around 35eur for two)
I found some ES10 in Germany with free returns. (price is 100 EUR, but its still cheap compared to what i paid for VCR) so i can order it and test is alongside 530H.
They have two listed. They seem to be the same, just different colors?
If u have phone with IR u dont need to get one with remote.
Last edited by Krazern; 22nd Jun 2023 at 05:26.
The noisy "posterization" effect that Lordsmurf complains about with Panasonic DMRs is visible. (May need to use the CTRL and + keys to zoom the screenshots to 200% in your browser.) This also negatively impacts the lossless compression: 8% larger for the Huffyuv video; 14% larger for this lossless PNG screenshot.
Contrast is a little too hot on the DMR-ES10 sample, but Y isn't clipping, so this could be fixed post-capture.
Dont wan't to wear it no more, but i will capture some samples from other bad tapes
There aren't many options in ES10, only AV denoising. With Sony RDR-HXD895 i played a little with its options (with previous tapes i tried with it) and dont really remember what i set in settings. I think i used the lowest denoising option, adjusted blacks and whites. I just wanted to show the line TBC strength in these samples. I also used S-VIDEO out, not s-video through scart (Line 1) in ES10
Last edited by Krazern; 24th Jun 2023 at 17:02.
What I like about Panasonic is that is has more stable image. You can really see that the bottom 10 rows are more-less fully aligned and the logo continues to the bottom edge of the video, where-as Sony is fully misaligned.
I do see some posterization in Panasonic, but I do wonder whether it is indeed a result of scart-input as you say. I thought my Pioneer/Panasonic DVRs would make it by Friday and I could post samples this weekend, but unfortunately not, so they will be arriving this Monday-Tuesday.
Ill then test both with S-video input/output out and will post the results. thanks a lot for your help
I used JVC HR-S7500 with its s-video output. I tested ES10 with s-video output and s-video through scart as well.
I captured two tapes with passthrough to Hauppauge Live 2 but also simultaneously using HDD recording on Sony RDR-HXD895 (15mbps mpeg2) and DVD recording on Panasonic DMR-ES10 (XP mode). I used avidemux to cut video to fit in the 500MB file size limit. Panasonic doesnt seem to be consistent with its results, two avi files and simultaneous dvd ones differ from each other a little, which is weird as input was the same (AV3 all the time, in front of es10).
You can see what i meant with much weaker "frame" TBC in sony before, it skips frames while panasonic doesnt, or skips only few.
Line TBC difference isnt that visible but as i said, with the tape i captured and talked about in my thread the differenece seemed to be more visible for me.
PS. What do you think about the quality of that HR-S7500 vcr? I bought it for 60 euro (with shipping) but was sceptical about its state but seems to be playing tapes just fine.
Last edited by Krazern; 25th Jun 2023 at 08:06.
Sorry, in your long file list I do not understand who is who.
Do you whish to compare:
ES10+USB-Live 2 versus ES10 directly on dvd? In both Composite and Y/C input signals? The same for HXD895?
I tried s-video output with scart (av1) on DMR-ES10 as it was said it has birghtness variations in normal s-video output (thats why i added scart in file names).
Internal records are additional, just wanted to show them too. What's nice about sony is that it captures whole frame unlike panasonic.
Last edited by Krazern; 25th Jun 2023 at 09:40.
Hi guys, both my ES-10 and Pioneer DVR-530H arrived today. I started some prelim testing...
Just FYI, i just plugged DVRs as-is and recorded. I did not adjust the DVR settings yet (it seems they sent me wrong remote for ES-10. When i press menu on the remote, i get an error, and i had no batteries for Pioneer remote), so will play with those over the weekend.
Regarding the initial testing - both samples have amazing lineTBC/horizontal-jitter removal [Panasonic is bit more stable]. Thanks both for advising the DVRs. I did not think i could get such stunning and stable image!
Panasonic ES-10 however introduces posterization (if i see properly) and really strong temporal denoising (there is this contour shadow following all the figures, especially if the image is darker), if i will be able to adjust the menu, ill try to turn that off to fix the issue.
Pioneer does not add stuff that shouldn't be there like Panasonic does (posterization, sharpening, denoising), but i do feel that the color management is worse. Denoising is much weaker, so the colors are not unified, there is overall green tint to the video and there is this green stripe on the left side in most of the recordings i did today that wasnt in the original 'VCR - hauppauge' connection.
Ill have to adjust the settings to see what is due to wrong settings and what is the default of the VCRs. I was trying to look for manuals how to setup passthrough DVRs, but they are not pinned in this thread. If you guys have any guides, id be eternally grateful, please.
PS: it seems both DVRs convert signal from SECAM to PAL as now in my Amarec-Tv, i have to set PAL instead of SECAM (in SECAM, i get crazy colors and the video freezes). [in my original connection VCR to Hauppauge to PC, i was recording in SECAM]
Last edited by JadHC; 28th Jun 2023 at 18:32.
Krazern and JadHC: Thank you both for the additional samples. No time to dive deep with a response at the moment, but I've taken a look at them all.
it seems both DVRs convert signal from SECAM to PAL
Last edited by Krazern; 29th Jun 2023 at 02:42.
i am posting another sample for ES10 but this time with NR turned off (thanks Brad for the guide)... The annoying temporal denoising is now gone and the image is nice and clear.
i did further testing and I think i will go with Panasonic ES10 due to following reasons:
1. Pioneer adds overall green tint to the image
2. In Pioneer recordings, there are these jumpy horizontal green lines on the left edge that werent there before ( i did about 5 hours of footage from 4 different tapes and its everywhere. as it is jumpy, i do not think it can be removed in post-processing)
3. every minute or so, there is a skipped frame at the top part of the image (white or magenta rectangle that flashes for a second)
4. to me, it seems that Pioneer jitter is worse and Panasonic as more stable image if im looking at the edges.
With NR turned off, Panasonic now seems like a great choice and very close to my original recordings without passthrough devise. there might be slight posterization but everything considered, it seems to be a small price for ultra-stable image.
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Last edited by anatollojordan; 27th Jul 2023 at 05:39.