Converting to what?

[plehoediv]

Hi,


Just captured a ton of VHS tapes using a EX95V VCR to a Sony TRV820e Camcorder to a Laptop via Firewire using, Scenalyzer to capture the whole thing. So far so good. I am happy with the Quality and would like to move on to the next step, which is "chopping" up the footage into smaller pieces, based on filming location. I was using Shutter Encoder to do so, because from my understanding, doing so without having to re-encode means you are not losing any quality, right?

Anyhow, since you can only make one cut (export) in Shutter Encoder at a time, it takes too long. So I "discovered" this a feature in DaVinci Resolve under Media Management where you can kind of do the same without encoder. Great. However, every file I ever tried works. The only ones that do not work are the captured VHS files! Go figure.

Having said that, what format can I convert my captured AVI files to, and not lose any quality, if possible, EDIT: So, I can use DaVinci Resolve to edit my files. (I wouldn't call this editing. Just want to split the files).



Thanks.

[Bwaak]

Since you captured in DV, which is intraframe format, you can chop it with straight cuts and save back to DV without loss. Anything more serious than a straight cut will cause a re-encode.

You can save to uncompressed, but what is the point if your source is DV? If you were collaborating with other people, creating many generations, you could be using an intermediate codec, but in your case it is of no use.

Keep your AVIs as the source. Edit your movies and render to whatever presentation format/platform you need, like DVD-video, Blu-ray, Youtube, etc. Don't forget to deinterlace for Youtube and set correct aspect ratio.

The only ones that do not work are the captured VHS files! Go figure.

DaVinci does not accept DV-AVI? Really? Which version do you have?

Full list for DaVinci Resolve 15: https://documents.blackmagicdesign.com/SupportNotes/DaVinci_Resolve_15_Supported_Codec_List.pdf They support DV only in MOV container and only in their Mac application.

Full list for DaVinci Resolve 16: https://documents.blackmagicdesign.com/SupportNotes/DaVinci_Resolve_16_Supported_Codec_List.pdf Looks like they support DV-AVI (both NTSC and PAL?) and DV-MOV (PAL only) for both Mac and Windows.

[dellsam34]

Usually if you're planning on editing and converting to another codec you should avoid DV route, But it's too late now, you just have to accept one generation loss, Make sure you do everything in one project to avoid multiple re-encodes.

[plehoediv]

Since you captured in DV, which is intraframe format, you can chop it with straight cuts and save back to DV without loss. Anything more serious than a straight cut will cause a re-encode.

I had to google intraframe and straight cuts, but searching how to save back to DV did not really work, as all the results fall back on DVD instead of DV. So how do I save it back to DV?

You can save to uncompressed, but what is the point if your source is DV? If you were collaborating with other people, creating many generations, you could be using an intermediate codec, but in your case it is of no use.

If you say so...

Keep your AVIs as the source. Edit your movies and render to whatever presentation format/platform you need, like DVD-video, Blu-ray, Youtube, etc. Don't forget to deinterlace for Youtube and set correct aspect ratio.

But that is exactly what I don't want to do. Let's say I have a Skiing video and I go ahead and do what you suggested. Cut a few scenes out, add some transitions and music, color grade it and finally export the video. But what if I have a Vacation video where I am with friends, then with family, then with my parents, then filmed an event and so on. I do not want to make this a vacation video. I would like to simply cut it apart and give each person their "share". Now they can do with it as they please. All I did was split the footage into parts and that's it. I have been using Shutter Encoder for this and for the most part, it gets the job done. Thats if you cut something of at the beginning and at the end, but for multiple cuts its to time consuming. That is why I planned on using DaVinci Resolve.

DaVinci does not accept DV-AVI? Really? Which version do you have?

I did not explain it good enough. DR accepts DV-AVI files. I can do whatever I want with them, as long I don't try to split the file into sperate pieces, using Media Management. I cam across this feature by accident: I access Media Management by going to the top menu and selecting "File -> Media Management." This feature allows me to trim the files without any loss in quality. To perform lossless trimming, I choose the "Copy" option instead of "Transcode." Additionally, I select the "Used Media and trim, keeping X frames handle" option.
When you do that, DR will do the same thing Shutter Encoder is doing, which is cut without re-encoding. This worked with every video I threw at DR. The only time it does not work is with the DV files I captures??? I tried it on a PC and Mac. With 18 and 18.5.

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

Usually if you're planning on editing and converting to another codec you should avoid DV route, But it's too late now, you just have to accept one generation loss, Make sure you do everything in one project to avoid multiple re-encodes.

That is why I use Shutter Encoder. It does not re-encode. Nor does DaVinci Resolve when using media management.

Thanks.

[Bwaak]

Let's say I have a Skiing video and I go ahead and do what you suggested. Cut a few scenes out, add some transitions and music, color grade it and finally export the video. But what if I have a Vacation video where I am with friends, then with family, then with my parents, then filmed an event and so on. I do not want to make this a vacation video. I would like to simply cut it apart and give each person their "share". Now they can do with it as they please. All I did was split the footage into parts and that's it. I have been using Shutter Encoder for this and for the most part, it gets the job done. Thats if you cut something of at the beginning and at the end, but for multiple cuts its to time consuming. That is why I planned on using DaVinci Resolve.

I see. Do your friends and parents enjoy editing videos? Do they want to get a bunch of raw clips and make a watchable movie themselves? Maybe you can make one for them?

When you do that, DR will do the same thing Shutter Encoder is doing, which is cut without re-encoding. This worked with every video I threw at DR. The only time it does not work is with the DV files I captures??? I tried it on a PC and Mac. With 18 and 18.5.

I haven't checked v18, but v15 and v16 accept DV only for source files, not for target files. This sucks, TBH.

You can use VirtualDub for straight cuts. Load a big file, then set in and out points. Then you can either press Delete to delete the selection, or you can Save File, in this case it will save only the selection. I THINK it should save back as DV if you choose No Processing both for video and audio. You can skip through the file rather quickly, setting in and out points.

I don't think you can use VirtualDub to join a bunch of segments though.

[plehoediv]

I see. Do your friends and parents enjoy editing videos? Do they want to get a bunch of raw clips and make a watchable movie themselves? Maybe you can make one for them?

No one enjoys editing videos. And no one has to. If I send my parents a clip of them at the beach, they will sit there and watch 2 hours of unedited footage. No problem, ha ha. Same with my aunt. I tried it. They do not care. Same with my friends. I showed them some old VHS footage and was bitching the whole time how much better the quality could be, and they were bitching at me to shut up and let them watch the footage. Not only that, but they actually like the old VHS look.
Having said that, all I would like to do, for now, is to split up the footage into smaller pieces, based on who is on the footage.

I haven't checked v18, but v15 and v16 accept DV only for source files, not for target files. This sucks, TBH.

I can check if you tell me what it would be called to export to DV. I doubt it will say "DV".

You can use VirtualDub for straight cuts. Load a big file, then set in and out points. Then you can either press Delete to delete the selection, or you can Save File, in this case it will save only the selection. I THINK it should save back as DV if you choose No Processing both for video and audio. You can skip through the file rather quickly, setting in and out points.

I am going to look into that. But does VirtualDub do it lossless and without re-encoder like Shutter Encoder? Thanks.

I don't think you can use VirtualDub to join a bunch of segments though.

No problem. Shutter Encoder does that really well. And by well I mean: It is easy to do.

Thanks.

[Bwaak]

You can use VirtualDub for straight cuts.

I am going to look into that. But does VirtualDub do it lossless and without re-encoder like Shutter Encoder?

I just checked with VD2 - it works. I have a bunch of DV codecs installed, but I don't think they are used when saving file in "Direct stream copy" mode.

[plehoediv]

You can use VirtualDub for straight cuts.

I am going to look into that. But does VirtualDub do it lossless and without re-encoder like Shutter Encoder?

I just checked with VD2 - it works. I have a bunch of DV codecs installed, but I don't think they are used when saving file in "Direct stream copy" mode.

I tried it and it says: "Direct stream copy cannot be used with this version stream. You may want to select different Input driver."

Anyhow, this is not the point. I don't like VirtualDub. I like DaVinci Resolve. I spoke to them yesterday, and sent them a screenshot video and sample file, so they can figure out why I cannot do with my files, what I can do with any other file, which is go to media management and split the footage into separate clips without having to re-encode.

Having said this, I converted yesterday a Captured AVI to ProRes LT and DaVinci Resolve is able to do what I would like it to do. Split the damn file without re-encoding. I just don't know if converting to ProRes LT is a good idea. That is why I started the thread. I don't know what I should convert my files to, without losing quality, so I can use them in DR.

Thanks.

[Bwaak]

ProRes is a good intermediate codec. No idea of the LT variety though. You want to send ProRes files to your parents?

[plehoediv]

You want to send ProRes files to your parents?

My first reaction was: "You are funny, of course not!" But now that I think about it... you are tight, I would be sending them ProRes! LOL. I guess that is not a good idea. OK, let's start from the beginning.

- I have large DV AVI files. I need to sometimes just trim the beginning and end off, but mostly, split the footage into 8 - 10 pieces.

- Shutter Encoder works for me but is too much work when you have so many cuts. So I "discovered" the same feature in DaVinci Resolve.

- For some reason, DR has an issue with my captured DV AVI files. No matter what I tried, DR is not able to split the file into smaller pieces using the Copy and not Transcode function. Again, I can edit and export my DV AVI files just like any other file, but when using the Copy feature in Media Management, it does not work.

- So, the plan was to convert all my DV AVI files to something that DR can use (when using the Copy feature in media management), without losing any quality, if possible.

- Converting to ProRes seemed like a good idea until you pointed out that it wasn't, ha ha.

So the question is, as it was before, what can I convert my DV AVI files to, not lose any quality, but is also a codec that I can end up sending to people without them having issues playing the file?

I guess that is too much to ask for. Then let ask you this:

What happens if I convert to ProRes, split the file in DR and then convert back to DV AVI so I have my original file format? On the other hand, now that I think about it, I might as well convert to something more commonly used and also something that creates smaller files... I guess.

Thanks. A lot.

[Alwyn]

If you simply want to split, trim or join DV-AVIs, use Scenalyzer. Works well and is lossless. Bit of a learning curve as it's not exactly a single-track NLE. but you'll get the hang of it.

Regarding DR and DV-AVIs. I don't have DR, but it might be the type of DV-AVI. There are two: Type 1 and 2. Whatever you have now, try the other type. Change AVI type with DVDate.

what can I convert my DV AVI files to, not lose any quality, but is also a codec that I can end up sending to people without them having issues playing the file?

I guess that is too much to ask for.

Not at all, and that is what every one of us who give files to others are faced with. After you have finished your editing, Export/Save As MP4, using either H264/AVC or H265/HEVC. That is what you give to others for viewing on every screen imaginable. Of course, whenever you change codecs, unless both are lossless, you will lose quality. If the source is reasonable and you use a decent bitrate/CRF, the dropoff in quality is minimal and the target audience won't notice anyway.

[plehoediv]

If you simply want to split, trim or join DV-AVIs, use Scenalyzer. Works well and is lossless. Bit of a learning curve as it's not exactly a single-track NLE. but you'll get the hang of it.

I used Scenalyzer to capture my tapes and you are correct... it takes a bit getting used to it. But before I start getting even more into it, let me ask you this: Can it make several cuts at the same time? Because if it doesn't, I might as well stick to Shutter Encoder.

Regarding DR and DV-AVIs. I don't have DR, but it might be the type of DV-AVI. There are two: Type 1 and 2. Whatever you have now, try the other type. Change AVI type with DVDate.

Thanks for giving me hope for one second, but I just tried it and DR doesn't even see the file now, whereas before, when it was type 2, DR at least saw it. Now it doesn't even show up in the media pool...

Have to go. Be back in an hour. Thanks for the input!!!

what can I convert my DV AVI files to, not lose any quality, but is also a codec that I can end up sending to people without them having issues playing the file? I guess that is too much to ask for.

Not at all, and that is what every one of us who give files to others are faced with. After you have finished your editing, Export/Save As MP4, using either H264/AVC or H265/HEVC. That is what you give to others for viewing on every screen imaginable. Of course, whenever you change codecs, unless both are lossless, you will lose quality. If the source is reasonable and you use a decent bitrate/CRF, the dropoff in quality is minimal and the target audience won't notice anyway.

Sounds good. Thanks.

[dellsam34]

That is why I use Shutter Encoder. It does not re-encode. Nor does DaVinci Resolve when using media management.

Thanks.

Not for what you are planning to do, Color correction, changing the format ...etc all require a re-encode. If you want to just cut some scenes off and wrap on a different container then yes you can do so within the DV codec if the software is capable of, Other software will not work in DV they will decode DV to base AVI before making any changes.

[plehoediv]

That is why I use Shutter Encoder. It does not re-encode. Nor does DaVinci Resolve when using media management.

Thanks.

Not for what you are planning to do, Color correction, changing the format ...etc all require a re-encode.

Who said I plan on doing all of that? Not me... : )

If you want to just cut some scenes off

Yup, that's all I want to do as of right now.

and wrap on a different container then yes you can do so within the DV codec if the software is capable of, Other software will not work in DV they will decode DV to base AVI before making any changes.

Copy that.

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

I think people cannot wrap their head around the fact, that all I want to do, as of now, is to split my files into smaller pieces. Hopefully without losing quality, have to pick a different container or coder. None of that. Just a few clicks and the files is split into smaller pieces. Just like that.

Why? Because I hate having to skip forward all the time, when watching a video... Plus, I like to create different folders with different content inside, based on the videos.

Thanks.

[_Al_]

I think people cannot wrap their head around the fact, that all I want to do, as of now, is to split my files into smaller pieces.

Not at ll. This a basic thing with DV avi. NLE like Vegas or Premiere load DVavi, then export any parts of edited timeline as DV avi again, no loss (except transition parts, effects etc, that is why it is not recommended to use filters for that purpose before splitting).

You should do some quick research before using Resolve. Why Dvavi is not allowed to export from that app to DVavi again losslessly is perhaps that NLE is quite new, it took off after DVavi era. Get NLE that supports it. Cheap Vegas or Premiere versions are not expensive at all. For DV avi you can get very old NLE versions for those, some older Pro versions. Edit Dvavi, export parts of timelines and actually only encode those in new modern encoders.

For Vegas I was using some scripts (needed Pro version) to actually export regions (timeline segments) as clips. That was a decade ago. It is forgotten already (Pc migrations, not using it)

[_Al_]

Oh, I found a video from more than 10 year ago , how to export NLE Vegas Pro 8 (today there is version 20) . Regions from timeline to clips automatically (in that video DV avi again), in video from start to about 3 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scyKutvLcZk
Then it is encoded uses tools at that time, which would be done differently today.

[Alwyn]

Can it make several cuts at the same time? Because if it does, I might as well stick to Shutter Encoder.

I suspect "doe" was supposed to be "doesn't".

Yes, you can make several cuts at the same time.

I suggest you practice on one file first, because Scenalyzer editing is destructive. If you split a file into two, that's what you'll get; two files. The original will be deleted.

In Scenalyzer, at the top, set the folder containing your DV-AVIs. All the files in that folder will be displayed.

To split a file, place the red cursor with your mouse. Tap S (Split) or menu Edit>Split. You will see the second half of your file has been turned into another file on the line below.

To trim the ends off a file, you can use the Split technique, then delete (DEL) the bits that have been created as separate files, or use the TRIM command. On your file, drag out the yellow box to cover the section you want to keep (similar to Vdub's blue selection area). Finetune each edge by dragging it with the mouse. Then, tap T (TRIM) or Edit>Trim. The portions outside the box will be removed.

Nothing has actually happened to your files at this point. What you see are the changes that will be made. Set activate the changes, hit CTRL+O (that's Oh) or menu Clips>Commit changes

You can even rename your clips/files by clicking on the filename at bottom-left of the clip.

I have an NLE that works losslessly with DV-AVI but I find, for quick splitting and trimming, Scenalyzer is less hassle.

[Bwaak]

I just checked with VD2 - it works. I have a bunch of DV codecs installed, but I don't think they are used when saving file in "Direct stream copy" mode.

I tried it and it says: "Direct stream copy cannot be used with this version stream. You may want to select different Input driver."

Anyhow, this is not the point. I don't like VirtualDub. I like DaVinci Resolve.

DaVinci Resolve is a full-blown NLE. VirtualDub is a simple cutter/converter. I am sure there are other tools besides VDub that can do what you want. Just out of curiosity, have you tried old VirtualDub or VirtualDub2? Do you have any DV codecs installed, like Cedocida? Are you sure you turned "Direct stream copy" for both video and audio? When it works, it is really simple and not destructive to the original file - you just select a segment and save it. Then select another segment and save it. Save is very quick, because there is no re-encoding. But whatever floats your boat.

[plehoediv]

I think people cannot wrap their head around the fact, that all I want to do, as of now, is to split my files into smaller pieces.

Not at ll. This a basic thing with DV avi. NLE like Vegas or Premiere load DVavi, then export any parts of edited timeline as DV avi again, no loss (except transition parts, effects etc, that is why it is not recommended to use filters for that purpose before splitting).

Well, I imported my file, cut a few pieces out (and nothing else), and wanted to export it. Now I am faced with a bunch of options like format, codec, interlaced rendering and whatnot. I have no idea what to pick, and that's why I like using Shutter Encoder.

You should do some quick research before using Resolve. Why Dvavi is not allowed to export from that app to DVavi again losslessly is perhaps that NLE is quite new, it took off after DVavi era. Get NLE that supports it. Cheap Vegas or Premiere versions are not expensive at all. For DV avi you can get very old NLE versions for those, some older Pro versions. Edit Dvavi, export parts of timelines and actually only encode those in new modern encoders.

Good idea, but no thanks. I am starting to learn how to use DR and I don't want to start learning how to use another video editing software. I either keep using Shutter Encoder, or the DR developers get back to me with a solution on how to do the "copy" thing and not the "transcode" thing, which is pretty much the same as what Shutter Encoder is doing. At least from my understanding.

For Vegas I was using some scripts (needed Pro version) to actually export regions (timeline segments) as clips. That was a decade ago. It is forgotten already (Pc migrations, not using it)

Don't worry about it. Not going to switch software now. Appreciate it though.


Thanks.

[plehoediv]

Oh, I found a video from more than 10 year ago , how to export NLE Vegas Pro 8 (today there is version 20) . Regions from timeline to clips automatically (in that video DV avi again), in video from start to about 3 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scyKutvLcZk
Then it is encoded uses tools at that time, which would be done differently today.

Thanks, but like I said, not switching apps at this point.

[plehoediv]

[QUOTE=Alwyn;2693557]

Can it make several cuts at the same time? Because if it does, I might as well stick to Shutter Encoder.

I suspect "doe" was supposed to be "doesn't".

Yes, it was supposed to be doesn't! good catch. Thanks.

Yes, you can make several cuts at the same time.

Ok, that sounds good. Gonna wait a few more days, before looking into that, hoping DR is going to come through with a solution to my problem.

I suggest you practice on one file first, because Scenalyzer editing is destructive. If you split a file into two, that's what you'll get; two files. The original will be deleted.

DaMn, glad you told me that!!!

In Scenalyzer, at the top, set the folder containing your DV-AVIs. All the files in that folder will be displayed.

To split a file, place the red cursor with your mouse. Tap S (Split) or menu Edit>Split. You will see the second half of your file has been turned into another file on the line below.

To trim the ends off a file, you can use the Split technique, then delete (DEL) the bits that have been created as separate files, or use the TRIM command. On your file, drag out the yellow box to cover the section you want to keep (similar to Vdub's blue selection area). Finetune each edge by dragging it with the mouse. Then, tap T (TRIM) or Edit>Trim. The portions outside the box will be removed.

Dude, thank you for the detailed description!

Nothing has actually happened to your files at this point. What you see are the changes that will be made. Set activate the changes, hit CTRL+O (that's Oh) or menu Clips>Commit changes You can even rename your clips/files by clicking on the filename at bottom-left of the clip.

I have an NLE that works losslessly with DV-AVI but I find, for quick splitting and trimming, Scenalyzer is less hassle.

You know, I think I am confusing "losslessly" with "no loss". More about that later...

gasfgsdfig;oaifghh;oisfhg;oisfhg;oiasfh;ioasfh

In case someone is wondering what this is all about, ha ha. Sometimes I cannot use the quotation function, no matter what I do. The only solution I found is to post something and then go and edit your post again.

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

BTW, I think I am mixing up a few things here. I just noticed.

You can capture a video losslessly which to me means, "no loss" in quality, right. But you can also capture a video with a little bit of loss, obviously, right? DV is not losslessly, right?

So, when I have DV footage which is not losslessly, but I want to cut it in pieces, without losing quality, I called that losslessly! I think that is wrong, correct?


WOW!

[jagabo]

So, when I have DV footage which is not losslessly, but I want to cut it in pieces, without losing quality, I called that losslessly! I think that is wrong, correct?

The original video capture was lossy because of the DV compression. As long as you don't re-encode the cutting is lossless -- ie, there are no further losses from the cutting. The losses from the original DV compression haven't changed.

[plehoediv]

Can it make several cuts at the same time? Because if it does, I might as well stick to Shutter Encoder.

I suspect "doe" was supposed to be "doesn't".

Yes, you can make several cuts at the same time.

I suggest you practice on one file first, because Scenalyzer editing is destructive. If you split a file into two, that's what you'll get; two files. The original will be deleted.

In Scenalyzer, at the top, set the folder containing your DV-AVIs. All the files in that folder will be displayed.

To split a file, place the red cursor with your mouse. Tap S (Split) or menu Edit>Split. You will see the second half of your file has been turned into another file on the line below.

To trim the ends off a file, you can use the Split technique, then delete (DEL) the bits that have been created as separate files, or use the TRIM command. On your file, drag out the yellow box to cover the section you want to keep (similar to Vdub's blue selection area). Finetune each edge by dragging it with the mouse. Then, tap T (TRIM) or Edit>Trim. The portions outside the box will be removed.

Nothing has actually happened to your files at this point. What you see are the changes that will be made. Set activate the changes, hit CTRL+O (that's Oh) or menu Clips>Commit changes

You can even rename your clips/files by clicking on the filename at bottom-left of the clip.

I have an NLE that works losslessly with DV-AVI but I find, for quick splitting and trimming, Scenalyzer is less hassle.

Dude, are you kidding me!? This totally worked and is EXACTLY what I was looking for! I can now split the files the way I want to, and, if I have to, merge them with Shutter Encoder! Tried it and it works like a charm...

Thanks Bro!

[plehoediv]

So, when I have DV footage which is not losslessly, but I want to cut it in pieces, without losing quality, I called that losslessly! I think that is wrong, correct?

The original video capture was lossy because of the DV compression. As long as you don't re-encode the cutting is lossless -- ie, there are no further losses from the cutting. The losses from the original DV compression haven't changed.

Copy that. Thanks.

[Alwyn]

Good stuff @plehoediv, glad you're sorted.

[plehoediv]

Good stuff @plehoediv, glad you're sorted.

Thanks. One more thing. Is it going to hurt in any way to install a bunch of codecs such as Alparysoft Lossless Video Codec, Avid Codecs, ffdshow, Huffyuv and Lagarith lossless video codec, just to name a few. I remember hearing that you should never ever install codec packs, but what about individual codecs?

Thanks.

[Alwyn]

I don't think you'll have any trouble with any of those. FFDShow gives you the option of installing no codecs initially; I'd do that and then add codec support when and if you need to decode an oddball codec.

None of those will upset Scenalyzer.

The general idea is things like the K-lite mega packs are not a good idea.