Need advice on USB capture cards that preserve an interlaced signal

[RJ37]

TL;DR in bold down below.

I am in the process of digitizing about 20 old VHS tapes (PAL) and have managed to set up a system that works well enough and yields the desired quality I am after.

The setup looks something like this:

Blaupunkt VHS player > SCART Adapter > AV Composite Cable > Envivo VHS to DVD Maker > Recording with VLC Player + a TV monitor on the side with AV input for checking the signal/tape integrity.

It took me quite some time to set up, to look for a driver that would support a 15 year old(?) USB capture card, and messing around with VLC's settings to get the capture quality that I'm satisfied with. It is currently recording to (massive) AVI files that have a frame size of 720x576, a framerate of 25fps and retains the interlacing. Which is what I want; I want the video to look as smooth as when they would on an old TV monitor, for once I want none of that progressive stuff. And believe it or not; some video players (like Windows Media Player) actually play interlaced 25fps footage back as if it were in 50fps (or fields per second in this case).

Now, for the most part, this works fine, but there's a problem: Some of the tapes contain segments where the video signal will start to stutter and sometimes outright freeze during playback in VLC (audio will continue playing uninterrupted). There are parts that will play back without any stuttering or freezing at all, and then there are parts that are completely unwatchable.

I suspect this has something to do with the way the video segments were recorded onto the VHS tape. Some may have been directly recorded off of a DV tape/camera, and sometimes off of another VHS player. At first I assumed the VHS tapes were damaged/degraded at those segments, but when I checked the AV Composite signal with an old TV monitor these segments playback just fine.

Logically I then started to suspect the 'Envivo VHS to DVD Maker' to be the cause of the problem, since this thing is old as heck and is running with some driver I found in some forgotten corner of the internet. So I went looking for an alternative. After digging through hundreds of different brands/cards I landed on the August VGB300 since it had a good amount of positive reviews and wasn't too expensive. When I got it and plugged it in, it installed its drivers automatically and I launched VLC. It then became immediately apparent that the quality I had gotten used to had taken a big hit, and not even the S-video cable I ordered along with it made it look as good as my original setup did. And worst of all; my beloved interlacing was gone!?

I tried OBS, which is recommended to be used with the VGB300, but I couldn't get the quality any better or retain the interlacing with it. I am suspecting this capture card automatically de-interlaces the signal before it enters any playback software, so I returned it.

Now I'm back to square one and on this aptly named forum asking for advice:
Does anyone know of a USB capture card/video grabber that captures good quality video AND retains the interlacing? Or would you recommend a different method/setup entirely?

Thank you for your time and help.

Rick

[davexnet]

See the discussion in this thread
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/401570-Hauppauge-USB-Live2-vs-IO-Data-GV-USB2

[DB83]

I'll add a +1 for the Hauppauge but will also add a few more comments.

1. The issue you are experiencing with stuttering/freezing, especially if they look fine on a tv, has little if anything to do with the capture device. Do a forum search for 'Time Base Correction' 'TBC' for short.


2. VLC is not really a capture software even if it can do this. And neither is OBS. Again more than enough topics on here about either Virtualdub or Amarectv used in conjunction with a lossless codec such as huffyuv.

[Bwaak]

@RJ37, How do you know it is the device, not your capture software? I agree with DB83, you should try a more traditional software that is known to work. As for device recommendation, Diamond VC500 is not horrible and at least carries a known name, although £44 may be too steep, in the U.S. it goes for around $29 - $35. Its driver is flaky though, and bundled software is garbage. But it does pass through uncompressed interlaced video.

[RJ37]

Thank you both for the advice, I will definitely look into time base correction. I read a few things on it, but it seemed daunting and unnecessarily confusing to me and unrelated to the problem I'm having.

@RJ37, How do you know it is the device, not your capture software? I agree with DB83, you should try a more traditional software that is known to work. As for device recommendation, Diamond VC500 is not horrible and at least carries a known name, although £44 may be too steep, in the U.S. it goes for around $29 - $35. Its driver is flaky though, and bundled software is garbage. But it does pass through uncompressed interlaced video.

Sorry, I somehow failed to mention in my initial post that the video segments that had stuttering with the original capture card seemed to pass through the new capture card without stuttering or freezing. Hence I concluded it must be the original capture card causing the problem.

[Alwyn]

Whether a capture ends up being interlaced or not depends entirely on the capture software, not the digitiser (at least those USB-types we're talking out here eg the VGBs). Virtual Dub and AmaerecTV will capture into an interlaced lossless codec, whereas OBS can be set to capture into either Interlaced or Progressive.

[RJ37]

Whether a capture ends up being interlaced or not depends entirely on the capture software, not the digitiser (at least those USB-types we're talking out here eg the VGBs). Virtual Dub and AmaerecTV will capture into an interlaced lossless codec, whereas OBS can be set to capture into either Interlaced or Progressive.

I would have thought so too, but whereas I managed to get interlaced results with VLC and OBS with the Envivo, I wasn't able to achieve a single interlaced result with the August. I initially used the same capture settings for both, but then went looking for settings that would preserve interlacing, but couldn't get it to work. So I would argue that if it isn't the capture card's fault, or the capture software, it must be its driver.

A little progress update: The August is on its way back to Amazon. I gave Virtualdub a go with the Envivo, but that yields the same stuttering/freezing result (and in one occasion even bluescreened my PC during a test capture!?). I'm guessing that it must indeed be a TBC issue, so I looked into that some more as well. From what little I read, it looks like I'm going to have to spend hundreds of bucks on one of those devices, which is not something I'm going to be doing. Or is there some software out there that is able to do time base correction?

[Alwyn]

So I would argue that if it isn't the capture card's fault, or the capture software, it must be it's driver.

The card or it's driver, it doesn't matter. The VGB and every other consumer USB card will capture Interlaced if you're using Virtual Dub or AmarecTV. If you're using other software, then it will depend on that capture software's settings eg OBS you can select Interlaced or Deinterlaced.

[DB83]

Well my friend, the 'driver' does matter.

If I read the OP correctly, that August is 'plug 'n play' and relies upon Windoze own driver rather than a bespoke one supplied by the manuf. More than likely that driver just treats the device as a webcam and even in vdub the only option would be so and progressive output regardless.


All rather academic now since the OP has returned the device.

[Alwyn]

If I read the OP correctly, that August is 'plug 'n play'

The OP is wrong. That's what I have been saying. The August cards, and every other card with their dedicated drivers installed will capture Interlaced provided the appropriate capture software is used.

[DB83]

Well even the comments on Amazon state that you simply plug in the device and drivers are 'magically' installed.

Even August's own demo on YT >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcD1B7kvdFE << does not mention bespoke driver installation.

True that is not the case with cards such as the Hauppauge where you a. Load driver (from CD or download), b. Insert card, c. Windoze initialises driver etc.


And there are other recent topics that discuss this plug 'n play approach with different cards and I suspect that they all use the same hardware under the hood.

[oln]

If it works without drivers it might some UVC thing that acts more like a webcam rather than the more "traditional" capture dongles.

[Bwaak]

every other card with their dedicated drivers installed will capture Interlaced provided the appropriate capture software is used.

Meh. I could not get interlaced from a $12 dongle no matter whether I used bundled software or virtualdub, and MJPEG was the only video mode. It was severely crippled.

[Alwyn]

Carry on with your junk stuff then Bwaak. I'm obviously talking about half-decent ones.

Let's get back to the issue. Either a card (with it's driver, not necessarily it's bundled capture software) will allow a lossless interlaced capture or it won't.

What we need is for the OP to do a lossless capture using AmarecTV (simplest to set up) and Largarith or HUFFYUV codec with their Envivo and then check whether it is interlaced or not.

Otherwise, post #2 has a reference to a discussion about two good cards.

[Bwaak]

Carry on with your junk stuff then Bwaak. I'm obviously talking about half-decent ones.

It was not obvious to me, neither do I have your definition of half-decent. Maybe next time you will provide a list of half-decent ones you have in mind so we could be on the same page. The dongle I mentioned went back to Amazon, so I cannot carry out your wish, I apologize.

As for getting back to the issue, indeed, one should use software that is known to handle incoming video as is, without conversion. Even better if it shows all the possible formats to choose from. For the record, I've tried using VLC for capturing and failed. I've never tried using OBS for capturing. I tried using OBS once for screen capturing and succeeded, but all my consecutive attempts failed, I guess I am too stupid for it. I use a different app to capture computer screen.

[RJ37]

What we need is for the OP to do a lossless capture using AmarecTV (simplest to set up) and Largarith or HUFFYUV codec with their Envivo and then check whether it is interlaced or not..

I might try AmarecTV tonight, but getting an interlaced video signal/recording with the Envivo is not really the problem. It has done that with every capture software I've tried so far. Getting the video feed to stop stuttering, freezing or wobbling (which OBS did to some of the freezing parts) however... That doesn't seem to go away no matter what software I use. At the moment, if I want to keep using the Envivo, i believe that looking into TBC (as suggested by DB83) is my best bet for solving the problem.

I'm just going to ask again, since everyone seemed to have glossed over the question in my last post:
Is time base correction possible through software?

[lollo]

No.

However, for (Line)TBC correction some experiments with vhs-decode look promizing https://youtu.be/CQ-u979_6Cw

oln may better explain his results once he reads your thread

[RJ37]

I just gave AmarecTV a shot and can confirm it yields the same result and problem as the other software I've tried so far: Interlaced playback with stuttering/freezing during the same tape segments.

Before I go all in on the TBC; what are my other options? And what are the chances of getting a clean feed by trying another capture card first?

I need to emphasize btw that I'm really grateful for all of you helping me out so far!

Edit: Here's a (probably dumb) question that popped into my head just now: What is a TV doing that a capture card isn't? Why can't a capture card pass through a video signal in the same way as a TV does? If it simply can't, wouldn't it be possible to just 'clone' the image from the TV monitor with a capture device/software?

[DB83]

But am I correct that you are still testing with this old card with the drivers you found 'under the sofa' ?

The issue could well vanish, to a degree, with a 'proper' capture device and official drivers. So you really should try that out first before attempting the investment in a TBC.


Your only other option would be to outsource the transfer to a commercial firm. We can hardly recc. one since we do not know your location.

[RJ37]

But am I correct that you are still testing with this old card with the drivers you found 'under the sofa' ?

Yes, you are correct, this shoddy set-up is the only one I've got at the moment.
The Hauppauge you +1'd isn't available on Amazon (in The Netherlands at least), would this be a suitable replacement? I really don't know what I should be looking at, there's just too much to choose from, and 90% of them seem like junk to me...

Your only other option would be to outsource the transfer to a commercial firm. We can hardly recc. one since we do not know your location.

I am from The Netherlands, from around the city of Arnhem. I was hoping to figure it out myself. I work professionally as a video editor for 13 years now, and have worked with DV-PAL capturing devices and produced for TV in my early days. Together with the experience of playing around with VCR's as a kid, I felt like I had enough knowledge to pull this off... And to a degree I did; from the 3-ish tapes I've been capturing, about 50% has been digitized to my satisfaction.

The thing is; I could outsource this endeavor, but that would feel a lot less satisfactory to me. I'm also afraid of making 'a gamble' and have to pay a fair amount of money for someone else to then digitize my family's precious memories below standards.

[DB83]

I agree with your reasoning. Better to attempt this yourself when you could get worse from a 'pro'

Try this as a source:


https://www.amazon.fr/Hauppauge-Live-2-Carte-dacquisition-num%C3%A9rique/dp/B003Q2ZA36...s%2C166&sr=8-5

[Alwyn]

As per that topic linked in post #2, if you have badly jittering tapes, you'll need a TBC/Stabiliser, especially with the USB-Live2. The IOData GV-USB2, in my experience, is slightly better at handling wonky tapes, but it still needs a stabiliser for bad tapes. Whether either of these options produce better captures than your Envivo, only experimentation will tell.

Assuming you're in PAL land, a cheap stabiliser system is a Panasonic DVD-recorder such as the ES-10, ES-15, or EH-55/57. Using S video cabling between the VCR and the ES and then the Envivo, you'll get pretty good stabilisation. The downside is sometimes slightly overblown whites, which you may be able to control, to a certain extent, with the procamp on your Envivo (through the capture program access). The DVD recorders stabilise the video because it is part of the circuitry for creating DVDs. It just happens that when the video signal is passed through, it is given the same treatment.

I suggest you get a DVD recorder of the models mentioned and then assess how your captures are. You can then decide whether to spend much more on a proper TBC and/or better VCR.

There are quite a few European posters here who will be able to give you some more models of DVD recorder that would be suitable.

[RJ37]

Alright, I think I'm going to go with buying a secondhand from one of the DVD recorders Alwyn mentioned, I did a quick search and I already found some rather affordable ones.
If after that I still get freezing/stuttering footage, I'll try the Hauppauge like DB83 suggested. And if that doesn't prove fruitful, I guess I'm gonna have to bring out the big bucks.

Thank you both again for the clear advice!

[lollo]

If after that I still get freezing/stuttering footage, I'll try the Hauppauge like DB83 suggested.

Be careful that Hauppauge USB-Live 2 really needs a Y/C signal, because its comb filter is poor, and a lineTBC corrected signal. So you need a high end S-VHS VCR with S-Video output and lineTBC or a "good" VCR and a specific DVD-R Recorder in pass-through mode as other users have properly suggested.

[RJ37]

Update: No progress, but this happened:

I finally managed to pick up a secondhand Panasonic DMR-EH55 DVD recorder. Upon arriving home and setting it up, I plugged it in and hit the on/off button. It greeted me with a "HELLO" message, but I soon suspected something was wrong as the message didn't disappear. After patiently waiting for a few minutes I decided to press some buttons, but they wouldn't respond to any of my presses presses, except for the eject button; when pressed it told me to "PLEASE WAIT" and it then quickly followed up with a "BYE" and shut down...

So yeah, it looks like I bought a broken device...

I did some troubleshooting with the use of the manual, but can't say that proved any use. I can't get the tray to open whatsoever or get any of the buttons to respond and I can't get any video feed out of it. It also didn't come with a remote, so there's only so much I can do to try and fix it.

Yay, back to searching for another secondhand!

[oln]

That's very likely caused by capacitors in the power supply going bad, which is a common problem with Panasonic dvd/hdd recorders of the era - unless it took other parts with it it's generally not too hard to fix by replacing them with some basic soldering.

[rgr]

Update: No progress, but this happened:

I finally managed to pick up a secondhand Panasonic DMR-EH55 DVD recorder. Upon arriving home and setting it up, I plugged it in and hit the on/off button. It greeted me with a "HELLO" message, but I soon suspected something was wrong as the message didn't disappear. After patiently waiting for a few minutes I decided to press some buttons, but they wouldn't respond to any of my presses presses, except for the eject button; when pressed it told me to "PLEASE WAIT" and it then quickly followed up with a "BYE" and shut down...

So yeah, it looks like I bought a broken device...

I did some troubleshooting with the use of the manual, but can't say that proved any use. I can't get the tray to open whatsoever or get any of the buttons to respond and I can't get any video feed out of it. It also didn't come with a remote, so there's only so much I can do to try and fix it.

Yay, back to searching for another secondhand!

This behavior is also characteristic if the DVD drive is broken. Got any error codes?
You can try to replace DVD with another recorder.
And try a hard reset.

[RJ37]

Update: No progress, but this happened:

I finally managed to pick up a secondhand Panasonic DMR-EH55 DVD recorder. Upon arriving home and setting it up, I plugged it in and hit the on/off button. It greeted me with a "HELLO" message, but I soon suspected something was wrong as the message didn't disappear. After patiently waiting for a few minutes I decided to press some buttons, but they wouldn't respond to any of my presses presses, except for the eject button; when pressed it told me to "PLEASE WAIT" and it then quickly followed up with a "BYE" and shut down...

So yeah, it looks like I bought a broken device...

I did some troubleshooting with the use of the manual, but can't say that proved any use. I can't get the tray to open whatsoever or get any of the buttons to respond and I can't get any video feed out of it. It also didn't come with a remote, so there's only so much I can do to try and fix it.

Yay, back to searching for another secondhand!

This behavior is also characteristic if the DVD drive is broken. Got any error codes?
You can try to replace DVD with another recorder.
And try a hard reset.

I have seen the following error code a couple of times, although I'm not sure what prompted it: U61

Which - according to the manual - means either:

(When a disc is not inserted) Displays when a malfunction has occurred during recording,
playback or copy. This is displayed when the unit is in the recovery process to return to
normal operation; it is not broken. Once the display clears you can use the unit again.

or:

The unit is carrying out the recovery process. Do the following to eject the disc.
1 Press [POWER O/I] on the main unit to switch the unit to standby.
If the unit doesn’t switch to standby, press and hold [POWER O/I] on the main unit for
about 10 seconds. The unit is forcibly switched to standby.
2 While the unit is off, press and hold [■] and [CH ^] on the main unit at the same time for
about 5 seconds. Remove the disc.

Neither of the two offered solutions bore any fruit, the disk tray won't eject whatsoever and waiting for the error code to clear results in it going into standby without fixing it.

Is there a way to manually eject it without taking it apart? I tried looking for that tiny hole to stick the end of a paperclip in, but can't seem to find one.

And how would I go about doing a hard reset on this thing? The only thing I found in the manual regarding 'reset' was either pressing the power button for 10 seconds, which - again - doesn't do anything, or to select the 'restore default settings' option in the setup menu, which requires me to use a remote that I don't have.

I've decided to keep the recorder and since I have been able to get a menu to appear on screen, I am considering to buy a remote. Or would it be a stretch to assume that it will respond to remote input when buttons on the device don't?

[rgr]

Hard reset:

With power off (stand-by mode), Press and hold [skip reverse] [Time Slip] [Eject] buttons on the units front for about 10 sec. Unit will go into Self Check Mode and then Display 'L1 TEST'. Now power off. Clock should be flashing 12:00. Turn power on and intial setup menu will be displayed on TV. Use also for DMRE50, DMRE55 AND DMRE85 models also.
For the DMRE75V press both [dub] buttons and [eject].

EH55:
"You can either go into menu (pressing 'FUNCTIONS' button on remote) and look for 'RESTORE DEFAULT SETTINGS' or similar heading, or you can (while unit is on) on the front of the unit (not the remote) press CH UP and CH DOWN buttons together for 5 seconds - the unit will switch to standby. Give either one a try. (refer to page 60 onwards in your user manual - these pages detail 'settings')."

[RJ37]

Excuse the delayed reply, I've been on holiday for the past few weeks.

I tried hard resetting with your instructions rgr, but it seems I have a different button layout on the front panel than what you are describing. I tried pressing/holding the buttons that came closest to your description and tried a few other combos; but sadly no result. See photo below for what my front panel looks like.


[Attachment 73178 - Click to enlarge]

There's some good news though: The device responds to the universal Panasonic remote I ordered. The downside however: I can't seem to get into a main menu of any kind, since it only seems to boot in some kind of auto check mode (which it can't complete according to the message prompted below).


[Attachment 73177 - Click to enlarge]

Rough translation:

" Auto check incomplete.
1) Press ENTER. The device will eject the disc tray and will go into stand-by.
2) Press POWER to reboot.
If this message persists, please contact the manufacturer."

Pressing ENTER doesn't eject the disc tray and will just turn the device into stand-by mode.

Is there a way to force open the disc tray? And should I? Because I'm guessing that won't stop it from going into this auto check loop...