Here is my Setup. What do you think?

[lollo]

Not at all! S-VHS JVC HR-9500MS, Happauge USB-Live 2. That’s all. The hardware settings and AviSynth filtering is described in the YT videos (look for the right ones)

[oln]

I think they may have ended up on my yt channel instead, that looks like my capture setup for one of my uploads.

[plehoediv]

Not at all! S-VHS JVC HR-9500MS, Happauge USB-Live 2. That’s all. The hardware settings and AviSynth filtering is described in the YT videos (look for the right ones)

Turns out I can't see the forest for the trees... ha ha. All I had to do is look in your signature!

[plehoediv]

I think they may have ended up on my yt channel instead, that looks like my capture setup for one of my uploads.

Yup...

[lollo]

I think they may have ended up on my yt channel instead, that looks like my capture setup for one of my uploads.

Which is a good reference as well!

[plehoediv]

Alright,

I have some samples. Let me explain. I decided to use my Blaupunkt RTV 936 (Panasonic NV-HS800. Even though I have seen people compare the 936 to a NV-HS1000, but that cannot be true). anyhow. So, the first videos I am going to post are from the RTV 936 to my Video Grabber. I tested RCA to RCA, S Video to S Video, SCART adapter to RCA, SCART adapter to S Video.

I honestly only see a difference in the contrast, but not really the quality. Let me know what you think.

Thanks.

P.S. I am posting these so other can see if a cable makes a difference or not.

[plehoediv]

Alright again,

Some more samples. This time I went from the RTV 936 to the ES15 and then to the Video Grabber.

Thanks.

P.S. Now the wording might be a bit confusing, but I hope it makes sense.

[Bwaak]

I only looked at the first and the fourth, and the difference is dramatic. The first is noisy and reddish, the fourth is much better. There is a ton of line twitter, this video would benefit a TBC. OTOH, if you crop the borders, it is would not be very noticeable on scenes with movement.

[plehoediv]

I only looked at the first and the fourth, and the difference is dramatic. The first is noisy and reddish, the fourth is much better. There is a ton of line twitter, this video would benefit a TBC. OTOH, if you crop the borders, it is would not be very noticeable on scenes with movement.

Thanks. I just noticed that the 1st clip is really bad. Luckily, I recorded each scenario twice. Here is the second clip from RCA to RCA.

[plehoediv]

OK, I am testing a few more set-ups. This is my Blaupunkt RTV 936 going to a BaseTech USB capture device, using vdub2 on my Dell Vostro 1720 Intel Core 2 Duo T6670 @2.20 GHz running Win 10. The BaseTech would work, then not work and now work again. I am sure that there is a better driver for it, but I have no idea how much difference a driver makes in capturing footage.

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

I opened a second browser windows to see if I can upload faster this way, ha ha.

[plehoediv]

Here are 2 more clips. This time send through the ES15. I try RCA to RCA, then Svideo to Svideo. Each time uncompressed and then with the lagarith codec.

[lollo]

The plan is to go from my VCR (S-VHS but no TBC. I honestly think my tapes do no need TBC)

Your tapes do need a (line)TBC (the quote is from another thread):


[Attachment 70297 - Click to enlarge]

[plehoediv]

The plan is to go from my VCR (S-VHS but no TBC. I honestly think my tapes do no need TBC)

Your tapes do need a (line)TBC (the quote is from another thread):


[Attachment 70297 - Click to enlarge]

Damn! I thought that it would be more obvious, but I guess not! Good work!

Good to know that the ES15 does what it is supposed to do! I was going to try something else as well. Instead of going through the ES15, I was going to try to go through my TRV820e camcorder, which has TBC. However, even though I am able to go from my VCR through the camcorder, I cannot get the camcorder to show up in WinDV. It shows up in Windows Movie Maker, vdub2 and Scenalyzer-v4-sclive but NOT WinDV!?!?!? What the heck?

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

I have no idea how to really use Scenalyzer but I did manage to capture this. What do you think compared to the other footage?

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

This one is the same setup, only difference is that I used vdub2 and the file is uncompressed.

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

Here are some more files. Both are coming from my Blaupunkt RTV 936 via RCA to my TRV820E and from there to the PC via firewire. One is captured with WinDV and the other is with VirtualDub2. Vdub2 codec is uncompressed as I cannot pick a codec. Same goes for WinDvm I guess, because there is nothing really to choose from. : )

Thanks.

[jagabo]

I suppose you know from your other threads that VirtualDub's lossless/uncompreseed DV just means that the DV that comes from the camcorder is stored as is, not further compressed, so there are no further compression or losses. Video from the camcorder is already compressed with a lossy DV codec before it gets to the computer. Whether it be from the tape or an analog input to the camcorder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DV

[plehoediv]

I suppose you know from your other threads that VirtualDub's lossless/uncompreseed DV just means that the DV that comes from the camcorder is stored as is, not further compressed, so there are no further compression or losses. Video from the camcorder is already compressed with a lossy DV codec before it gets to the computer. Whether it be from the tape or an analog input to the camcorder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DV

Yeah, I kind of knew that, and I didn't, ha ha. I am jumping from one thread/forum to another, trying to dance on too many weddings at the same time, and often get confused with all the new info I am trying to gather. If that makes sense!?

Having said that, you explained perfectly fine why I got confused. In my mind, "uncompressed" meant the footage is uncompressed already, and it will stay that way. In reality, the footage is already compressed in the camera, and it will not get compressed by vdub any further. So it actually be called "as is" and not "uncompressed", ha ha.
BTW, if the footage were uncompressed in the camera, it would be called RAW, right?

Thanks.

EDIT: It turns out I know even less from what I thought I knew, and that was very little, ha ha. Found this about RAW. Cool article. Have to read it a few times to fully understand it.

https://www.broadcastbeat.com/what-is-raw-video-and-why-its-needed/#:~:text=The%20RAW%...rly%20lossless.

[plehoediv]

Hi,

I was busy so I never got to finish my "comparison test" hooking up all kinds of machines using all kinds of cables. Not sure if this is going to be helpful for someone but you never know.

This file is Blaupunkt RTV936 to ES15 to my little videograbber using only RCA cables.

Thanks.

P.S. I might have done these tests before and if I did, never mind. : )

[plehoediv]

RTV936 to EH55 to VideoGrabber using all RCA cables.

[plehoediv]

Here are some more files. I fell silly doing this, but now I have to finish it, ha ha.

Thanks.

BTW: I remembered that there are some settings in the EH55 that can be changed. I did not do that. So Grey background is ON and FL display is bright. I guess I am going to have to redo all of the tests with Background OFF and FL display Dim...

[lordsmurf]

the VHS refresh feature

I'm reminded of Back to the Future II. "Make like a tree, and get out of here."
Then old man Biff let him have it.

As was the case with young Biff, repeating Panasonic marketing makes you sound like a moron.

"VHS refresh" is technobabble nonsensical bullshit.

This unit contains a strong+crippled line TBC, with non-TBC frame sync. Or, as I call it, "TBC(ish)". Because it's sorta-kinda TBC, but not entirely. Just "ish".

[plehoediv]

the VHS refresh feature

This unit contains a strong+crippled line TBC, with non-TBC frame sync. Or, as I call it, "TBC(ish)". Because it's sorta-kinda TBC, but not entirely. Just "ish".

By this unit I assume you mean the DMR-EX95V... Yeah, must be.

[oln]

The "VHS refresh" term in Panasonic brochures/devices is mainly a catch-all marketing term for the combination of horizontal stabilization, noise reduction and other processing the units do. "This helps refresh your vhs tapes" was probably seen as a bit easier for a consumer to understand than some technical term like TBC.

The difference in the "frame" part of it when comparing to say a Datavideo TBC-1000 is how it's set up to act/behaves when the input consists of missing/irregular vertical sync. They both buffer one or more frames, decide how to handle them, and then output a stable 50 or 59.94 fields per second output where the visible area will ideally contain the same image in the visible area as the input frames. I have yet to see any proof this or other dvd-recorders outputting anything that isn't a stable 50/59.94 fields per second video signal other than Panasonics specifically turning off the analog outputs after a few seconds if they detect nothing whatsoever on the input. (They will also put macrovision copy protection in if they think the material is copy protected which can upset some devices, though macrovision on the input side already tends to mess with the gain on the input anyhow.) As a side note the term "frame synchronizer" is in technical docs at least used for a device that will synchronize 2 or more video signals which isn't something dvd-recorders do and only some TBC units are capable off, not the act of buffering video to help output a stable video stream on it's own.

You can call them whatever you want, the more relevant and useful bit is whether a device is able to perform what you want out of it and be clear about what specifically it can and can't do, and what the limitations of the device are. There is going to be some subjective differences on what people value most which is also important to keep in mind. For example, I have a Datavideo TBC-3000, but I hardly ever use it as I find it's drawbacks (particularly the fact that it crops off too much on the right of the image) don't outweigh any potential slight benefit it has over using my Panasonic DMR-EH58 for stabilization instead. Someone else like Lordsmurf might have a different judgement on what they value the most and I presume would prefer to use the TBC-3000 over the EH58 in most cases.

If the need is something that will prevent any frame drop/insertion on the computer side, correct horizontal jitter etc, the Panasonic DVD-recorders with panasonic chipsets at least from 2005 on do that role well other than on material with macrovision.

For the specific case of capturing from a SVHS or HI8 VCR with a TBC function, A Datavideo TBC-1000 or AVT-8710 are well capable of handling the irregularity and signal issues that the VCR lets through and output a stable video signal for the capture card to handle. I would agree that they do a slightly better job than a DMR-ES10 or similar at this specific task (though that doesn't mean that the final result will be automatically be better than the same tape in VCR without TBC or TBC not on + a capable Panasonic DVD-Recorder for stabilization instead). Since they aren't capable of compensating for horizontal instability like e.g the ES10 in the drawbacks of using one compared to e.g a ES10 will be larger in cases when the VCR used lacks any TBC function.

[lollo]

For the specific case of capturing from a SVHS or HI8 VCR with a TBC function, A Datavideo TBC-1000 or AVT-8710 are well capable of handling the irregularity and signal issues that the VCR lets through and output a stable video signal for the capture card to handle. I would agree that they do a slightly better job than a DMR-ES10 or similar at this specific task (though that doesn't mean that the final result will be automatically be better than the same tape in VCR without TBC or TBC not on + a capable Panasonic DVD-Recorder for stabilization instead).

I agree with all you said.

In addition and IMO, the comparison of VCR with lineTBC + frameTBC versus VCR without lineTBC + ES-10 (or similar) in term of final quality also depends on the conditions of the tapes and the defects present in them, is difficult to generalize.

Experienced users like Bogilein often stressed on how important is to have several devices to face different cases, because there is not a unique winning combination.

For instance, for many of my tapes, I experienced that the best combination was simply the VCR with lineTBC enabled versus the same VCR with lineTBC disabled and an ES-15 in the chain versus the same VCR with lineTBC enabled and a Datavideo frameTBC. The ES15 and Datavideo (at least the devices I used) are not that transparent. For others tapes the best combination is one of the other two.

[Alwyn]

Lordsmurf, some could argue that

strong+crippled line TBC, with non-TBC frame sync. Or, as I call it, "TBC(ish)". Because it's sorta-kinda TBC, but not entirely. Just "ish".

is just

technobabble nonsensical bullshit.

as opposed to

The "VHS refresh" term in Panasonic brochures/devices is mainly a catch-all marketing term for the combination of horizontal stabilization, noise reduction and other processing the units do. "This helps refresh your vhs tapes" was probably seen as a bit easier for a consumer to understand than some technical term like TBC.

My point? You're here only because you want to help others with their video work. I see little benefit in sledging others who use different terms or indeed terms which manufacturers use to describe their products, in this case quite accurately.

The fact of the matter is that Panasonic stuff with VCR Refresh is a lower-cost alternative to the higher quality gear that folks may well not be able to afford at all. The quality is lower but not by much. There are some of us who are not perfectionists.

[plehoediv]

Ok, now it is starting to get out of hand... I went from the RTV936 to the EH55 to the ES15 and then to the VideoGrabber. VCR to EH55 via svideo to ES15 via scart to VideoGrabber via RCA.
I am not going to compare the different setups to each other yet, because I am having to hard of a time syncing them in DaVinci, ha ha. Anyhow, I can always do that later.

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

Here is another one.

Same "chain" as last time, but this time the last connection to the VG (video grabber) is s-Video.

[plehoediv]

Alrighty then... I am back with some more "useless" setups, ha ha. This time, the first part is the same as the last ones, but I added my TRV820e to the mix and send the footage to the PC via Firewire. I used ScenalyzerLive, WinDV and VirtualDub. The later drops frames and also has audio sync issues. So, I am not going to use Vdub.

At this point, I could run all these tests again using the DMR-EX95V, but that would be just absurd. Right? LOL.

Honestly, I see no reason why I can't leave everything the way it is (all these machines hooked up in series like that) and start transferring my videos. What is the harm? Or, I could stop being lazy and unhook everything, and only use the ES15 (between the VCR and TRV820e). Right.

Anyhow, thank you folks for all the help and letting me bore you with my "tests", ha ha.

Thanks.