Is there a work around for no AV-IN?

[plehoediv]

Hi,

I have a Sony DCR-PC2E MiniDV camcorder with S-Video OUT, DV OUT, LANC (?), Audio/Video OUT (Yellow 3.5mm). I also have a Canon VIXIA HF S10. The Canon has, as taken from the Canon Museum website: Video Terminal component (output), composite (output), AV Mini Terminal/Headphone Terminal 3.5 mm 4 pole mini-jack (video/audio output only).

I see that all of them say OUT (obviously) and none of them have a IN port. Does this really mean there is NO way I can use any of these two cameras as a passthrough device? Or is there a special trick/setting that still allows me to go IN, into one of the OUT ports? You know, with an analog signal coming from my VRC?

I ask because you never know.

That said, I need a Hi8 camcorder anyway to play some tapes. What am I supposed to look for when buying one? Just AV IN? Or analog IN?

Thanks.

P.S. Is a camcorder as good, better or worse than using a dedicated capture card?

[Cornucopia]

Camera = Optical input. Your assumptions that it would ever do any more than that is just an assumption, which can be verified or disproven through the manual & specs.
In this case, a 1 minute search showed that neither of these cameras is capable of recording line in or even passthrough mode.

P.S. it depends, but usually worse. Use the correct tool for the job.

Scott

[plehoediv]

Camera = Optical input. Your assumptions that it would ever do any more than that is just an assumption, which can be verified or disproven through the manual & specs.
In this case, a 1 minute search showed that neither of these cameras is capable of recording line in or even passthrough mode.

P.S. it depends, but usually worse. Use the correct tool for the job.

Scott

Thanks for the reply but I am not sure what you are trying to say!? That I was lazy, and I should've done my research? Like I said, it is pretty obvious that the cameras have no line in, however, my Canon EOS 5D Mark ii does not have a lot of features when stock but once you add the Magic Lantern Firmware, it turns into a completely different camera. That is what I was hoping for. Some kind of "trick" or "hack" to turn a line out into a line in...

[Bwaak]

That said, I need a Hi8 camcorder anyway to play some tapes. What am I supposed to look for when buying one? Just AV IN? Or analog IN?

For digitizing Hi8 just get a Digital 8 camcorder that can play analog tapes (most of them can), capture through Firewire. Built-in TBC is nice to have.

For capturing other analog video it would be nice if the camcorder had passthrough (many of them have, but not all).

Either way, you'll get your video digitized into DV @ 29 Mbit/s. No need to fiddle with settings. Bulletproof.

[Cornucopia]

Camera = Optical input. Your assumptions that it would ever do any more than that is just an assumption, which can be verified or disproven through the manual & specs.
In this case, a 1 minute search showed that neither of these cameras is capable of recording line in or even passthrough mode.

P.S. it depends, but usually worse. Use the correct tool for the job.

Scott

Thanks for the reply but I am not sure what you are trying to say!? That I was lazy, and I should've done my research? Like I said, it is pretty obvious that the cameras have no line in, however, my Canon EOS 5D Mark ii does not have a lot of features when stock but once you add the Magic Lantern Firmware, it turns into a completely different camera. That is what I was hoping for. Some kind of "trick" or "hack" to turn a line out into a line in...

Well, it did APPEAR that you were lazy. Apologies.

No, firmware cannot do that. Inputs and outputs follow different paths and are not similar nor symmetrical, and have different types of dedicated, hard-wired circuity, which cannot be recreated in software.
Adding extra LUT settings, runtime defaults, etc like magic lantern is easily done in firmware, given sufficient memory/storage capacity.

Scott

[ltfmaz]

a solution:
analog signal-> analog port of video recorder-> DV port of video recorder-> DV port of your camcorder
but a video recorder with DV port is not easy to get in low price.

[Cornucopia]

@ltfmaz,

That only works if:
1. You record & then playback (and incur recorded compression artifacts)
or
2. Your recorder supports analog pass-through. Many do not.


Scott

[plehoediv]

That said, I need a Hi8 camcorder anyway to play some tapes. What am I supposed to look for when buying one? Just AV IN? Or analog IN?

For digitizing Hi8 just get a Digital 8 camcorder that can play analog tapes (most of them can)

I didn't know that or think about a digital camcorder being able to play back analog.

, capture through Firewire.

So FireWire is a must. Copy that.

Built-in TBC is nice to have.

Camcorders have TBC too? I did not know that.

For capturing other analog video it would be nice if the camcorder had passthrough (many of them have, but not all).

Copy that.

Either way, you'll get your video digitized into DV @ 29 Mbit/s. No need to fiddle with settings. Bulletproof.

Sounds good to me. All i have to do is find a Digital 8 Camcorder with AV IN, plays analog tapes. has FireWire, TBC and passthrough. How hard can that be? LOL

Any suggestions would be highly appreciated.

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

[QUOTE=Cornucopia;2685019]

Well, it did APPEAR that you were lazy. Apologies.

Apology accepted. It's all good.

No, firmware cannot do that. Inputs and outputs follow different paths and are not similar nor symmetrical, and have different types of dedicated, hard-wired circuity, which cannot be recreated in software.

Interesting. I though the exact opposite, ha ha.

Adding extra LUT settings, runtime defaults, etc like magic lantern is easily done in firmware, given sufficient memory/storage capacity.

Copy that.

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

Hi,

I posted the same question in a thread that is 5919 days old, so I am going to risk getting "flagged" by an administrator and post the same question here again.

I am thinking of getting the TRV820 but I saw that you can only use RCA to the Camcorder. At least that is what the manual shows. I googled and saw s-video to 3.5mm cables. Would those work? Reason I am asking is: s-video is "better" than RCA, correct?

Thanks.

[Cornucopia]

The manual states S-Video cable is not supplied with the camera, but any standard, good quality S-Video cable will work.
Note, this model does feature input as well as output, using the same ports but switching to different circuitry depending on the settings. It also has iLink aka Firewire aka IEEE 1394 aka DV i/o.
I didn't thoroughly read the manual so not sure about analog passthrough, but assuming not, I would say the best quality would had:

1. For D8 tapes: play out via Firewire, capture with Firewire port using Firewire app on an (older?) PC, or possibly Mac.
2. For Analog tapes: get an S-Video cable, something like this https://www.amazon.com/Cmple-S-Video-Cable-Gold-Plated-SVideo/dp/B003WB70O8/ref=mp_s_a...s%2C126&sr=8-3 and play out via S-Video to a PC/Mac with capture card/device that supports S-Video, using whatever app that supports the device hardware, and can save in as lossless a format as possible.
3. Barring S-Video, use the composite video method with the supplied breakout cable (which cable and port does NOT support S-Video, btw), and continue to capture similar to #2.

Any other methods incur additional quality losses.

Regarding in general with video, the heirarchy of video quality is this:
Best is RGB or YUV component (yuv often seen as YPbPr in analog and YCbCr in digital), all component signals fully separate/discreet.
Next is YUV luma/chroma semi-component (aka S-Video, aka Y/C), Luma Y is separate, but chroma channels combined into one.
Next is YUV composite, all 3 channels combined into one.

The more mixing/combining, the more things get muddied up, and the more compromises made trying to re-separate them, since nearly all computer digital formats save in YUV component.

Scott

[dellsam34]

Camcorders equiped with VCR function have the same physical inputs and outputs to reduce the size of the camcorder, They are assigned by changing the mode, In playback/camera they are outputs, in VCR/VTR they are inputs, In this mode only digital outputs are available such as iLink or USB. Later on full physical connectors were eliminated and replaced by 3.5mm jack to reduce the size further. Some prosumers camcorders have a set of both inputs and outputs such as some Canon models.

[plehoediv]

The manual states S-Video cable is not supplied with the camera, but any standard, good quality S-Video cable will work.

I have at least one. Gonna order another right now...

Note, this model does feature input as well as output, using the same ports but switching to different circuitry depending on the settings. It also has iLink aka Firewire aka IEEE 1394 aka DV i/o.

Copy that.

I didn't thoroughly read the manual so not sure about analog passthrough, but assuming not, I would say the best quality would had:

Just to clarify. We are talking about the DCR-TRV820E and NOT about the two I mentioned in my first post. (Sony DCR-PC2E MiniDV, Canon VIXIA HF S10).
The DCR-TRV820E definitely features passthrough. See attached photo. I also found this site here that lists all Sony camcorders that feature passthrough.

1. For D8 tapes: play out via Firewire, capture with Firewire port using Firewire app on an (older?) PC, or possibly Mac.

Turns out my HP Spectre x360 has a Thunderbolt port. I had no idea. Always thought it was just a USB-C port, ha ha. So I guess I have to get some adapters. . Same goes for my MacBook Pro. I prefer the Windows machine unless there is a really good reason to capture on the Mac?

2. For Analog tapes: get an S-Video cable, something like this https://www.amazon.com/Cmple-S-Video-Cable-Gold-Plated-SVideo/dp/B003WB70O8/ref=mp_s_a...s%2C126&sr=8-3 and play out via S-Video to a PC/Mac with capture card/device that supports S-Video, using whatever app that supports the device hardware, and can save in as lossless a format as possible.

I found an old usb stick style capture card and played around with it for a little bit, capturing using VirtualDub. Worked alright. Audio Video is out of sync. Anyhow. Gonna find a way to fix that. I guess VirtuaDub is OK to use for capturing analog to digital.

3. Barring S-Video, use the composite video method with the supplied breakout cable (which cable and port does NOT support S-Video, btw), and continue to capture similar to #2.

Not sure what you mean.

Any other methods incur additional quality losses.

Copy that.

Regarding in general with video, the heirarchy of video quality is this:
Best is RGB or YUV component (yuv often seen as YPbPr in analog and YCbCr in digital), all component signals fully separate/discreet.
Next is YUV luma/chroma semi-component (aka S-Video, aka Y/C), Luma Y is separate, but chroma channels combined into one.
Next is YUV composite, all 3 channels combined into one.

The more mixing/combining, the more things get muddied up, and the more compromises made trying to re-separate them, since nearly all computer digital formats save in YUV component.

Cool. Thanks for the info. Looks like I will be using S-Video. (S-Video from VCR to Camcorder and then via Firewire into the PC.

BTW, I was a bit mad at myself today, because I wish I would have just bought more Video 8 tapes, instead of transferring my footage to VHS. On the other hand, Video 8 is analog and so is VHS. Does that mean there wasn't much of data/quality loss anyway?

Thanks.

P.S. In 1989 a Sony 240min VHS Tape was around 18 Deutsch Mark, or 9 Dollars and a 90 min Video 8 tape was 25DM or roughly 12,5 dollars. That means that 1 minute of VHS was around 0.075 cents and 1 min of Video 8 was around 0.277 cents. That is 3.7 times more expensive. I think that explains why I transferred to VHS.

[Cornucopia]

The whole thunderbolt<-->firewire workaround is risky kludge even at the best of times (recent but not too recent Mac), and it just gets more problematic from there. I always recommend avoiding it, and pressing an older desktop PC with actual TI chip firewire400 card (with winxp or win7 os) into service instead.

Scott

[Bwaak]

BTW, I was a bit mad at myself today, because I wish I would have just bought more Video 8 tapes, instead of transferring my footage to VHS. On the other hand, Video 8 is analog and so is VHS. Does that mean there wasn't much of data/quality loss anyway?

Consumer-grade analog video (a.k.a. "color under") is notorious for losing quality with every dub. You get more wobble because there is usually no TBC involved, you get more noise, you lose resolution, the color gets blurrier, also chroma can be shifted one or two lines with each dub. Linear audio tracks get wobblier and less bright. Umatic is not much better, but its S/N is slightly better and its linear audio is much better than VHS linear audio.

P.S. In 1989 a Sony 240min VHS Tape was around 18 Deutsch Mark, or 9 Dollars and a 90 min Video 8 tape was 25DM or roughly 12,5 dollars. That means that 1 minute of VHS was around 0.075 cents and 1 min of Video 8 was around 0.277 cents. That is 3.7 times more expensive. I think that explains why I transferred to VHS.

Did you shoot so many tapes back then that you saved a lot?

[dellsam34]

It's recording storage paranoia or whatever it's called, People get anctious about running out of tape, So they go for the lowest speed. Few decades later and after I handeled hundreds of tapes, VHS, VHS-C, V8, Hi8, miniDV, HDV, Beta ... Camcorder home videos shooting and TV recording alike, I found out that most of the tapes recorded in low speed have used only half the tape, the remaing half is blank, Had they recorded in SP they would have gotten a much better quality.

[plehoediv]

The whole thunderbolt<-->firewire workaround is risky kludge even at the best of times (recent but not too recent Mac), and it just gets more problematic from there. I always recommend avoiding it, and pressing an older desktop PC with actual TI chip firewire400 card (with winxp or win7 os) into service instead.

Scott

Someone mentioned it before, that adapters are really tricky. Before I get my Dell PowerEdge T620 going again, I have a few other options:

1. I was going to use an old Laptop but a it only has USB port. A quick google search revealed that Firewire to USB is not going to work. So that Laptop is out.

2. Another old Laptop has a pcmcia card slot. Was going to use that until I noticed it also has a Firewire port! IEEE 1394. I guess I can use that? The laptop is old, but I would think that it should do the job of capturing video. Why else would it have a Firewire port, right. I can always check the capturing software for dropped frames.

3. Use my everyday laptop which has a lightning port and just get the adapters. If they work, Great. If not, send the adapters back. : )

4. See what is wrong with my Dell PowerEdge T620. I don't think it is anything big. Buy a firewire card and slap that in there.

That said, is there anyone method that makes more sense than the other? (Other than the adapter "issue").

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

Consumer-grade analog video (a.k.a. "color under") is notorious for losing quality with every dub. You get more wobble because there is usually no TBC involved, you get more noise, you lose resolution, the color gets blurrier, also chroma can be shifted one or two lines with each dub. Linear audio tracks get wobblier and less bright. Umatic is not much better, but its S/N is slightly better and its linear audio is much better than VHS linear audio.

I thought so...

Did you shoot so many tapes back then that you saved a lot?

I have around 15 VHS tapes. Each is 240min. That's 3600 min. which equals forty 90min Video8 tapes. 40 x 25DM is 1000 DM. I wasn't going to spend that on tapes back then, ha ha. I probably spend it on my dirt bike or something. Sure, you didn't need all the tapes at once, but when you are on vacation, filming your friends doing stupid stunts on bikes, the footage adds up really fast.

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

It's recording storage paranoia or whatever it's called, People get anctious about running out of tape, So they go for the lowest speed. Few decades later and after I handeled hundreds of tapes, VHS, VHS-C, V8, Hi8, miniDV, HDV, Beta ... Camcorder home videos shooting and TV recording alike, I found out that most of the tapes recorded in low speed have used only half the tape, the remaing half is blank, Had they recorded in SP they would have gotten a much better quality.

I can see that. Luckily most my footage was filmed in SD. I think.

[Cornucopia]

@plehoediv, re you order, try
2 with proper (older) OS and drivers, it should work
4 doable if you find the right card. TI chipset was important back when, but who knows the state of things now
3 there's a chance, but I would say it's slim
1 only the Pinnacle box has ever been know to do this right and it requires proprietary drivers
That works for the DV stuff transferring directly. Then there are all the other options which include D-->A-->D etc which loses quality. How much? Will depend on device.


Scott

[plehoediv]

@plehoediv, re you order, try
2 with proper (older) OS and drivers, it should work
4 doable if you find the right card. TI chipset was important back when, but who knows the state of things now
3 there's a chance, but I would say it's slim
1 only the Pinnacle box has ever been know to do this right and it requires proprietary drivers
That works for the DV stuff transferring directly. Then there are all the other options which include D-->A-->D etc which loses quality. How much? Will depend on device.


Scott

Hey, thanks for the input. I keep everyone posted on what worked for me.

Thanks.

[plehoediv]

BTW, I got a Panasonic DMR-ES15 today and tried a few things. Like recording to DVD and using it as a passthrough device. The results were so so. However, I found a thread on here where they explained in detail on how to set it up properly [for passthrough]. Even though my signal made it through, I know some of my settings are wrong, so I am going to try in the morning again. Recording to DVD works but the quality wasn't that great either. I wanted to try using the same tape I have used for all my other tests, but it turns out that it copy protected, ha ha.

Thanks.

[JN-]

I use Vegas Pro vidéo capture app, VidCap, it can be run outside of vp, without loading vp. I use a firewire capture card in a Win 10 machine. So you’re not limited to Win 7 or earlier.